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Israel-Hamas Thread II

JosephZ

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In October 2023, in 96% of incidents that resulted in civilian deaths in Gaza, primarily from IAF airstrikes, no militants were killed. In the 4% of incidents where militants were killed, 99% of the deaths were civilians.

airwars gaza.png


Patterns of harm analysis
Gaza, October 2023

By almost every metric, the harm to civilians from the first month of the Israeli campaign in Gaza is incomparable with any 21st century air campaign. It is by far the most intense, destructive, and fatal conflict for civilians that Airwars has ever documented. Key findings include:

  • At least 5,139 civilians were killed in Gaza in 25 days in October 2023. This is nearly four times more civilians reported killed in a single month than in any conflict Airwars has documented since it was established in 2014.
  • In October 2023 alone, Airwars documented at least 65 incidents in which a minimum of 20 civilians were killed in a particular incident. This is nearly triple the number of such high-fatality incidents that Airwars has documented within any comparable timeframe.
  • Over the course of 25 days, Airwars recorded a minimum of 1,900 children killed by Israeli military action in Gaza. This is nearly seven times higher than even the most deadly month for children previously recorded by Airwars.
  • Families were killed together in unprecedented numbers, and in their homes. More than nine out of ten women and children were killed in residential buildings. In more than 95 percent of all cases where a woman was killed, at least one child was also killed.
  • On average, when civilians were killed alongside family members, at least 15 family members were killed. This is higher than any other conflict documented by Airwars.

Airwars recorded a minimum of 1,213 women killed in Gaza in October 2023. This is more than six times the number of women killed during the four-month Battle of Raqqa, more than nine times the number of women killed by the US coalition during the Battle of Mosul (excluding cases of contested attribution), and more than seven times the number of women killed in Syria by foreign actors in September 2017 - the most lethal month for women previously recorded by Airwars.

Of the 1,213 women killed, at least 90 percent were killed in a residential building, and 96 percent were killed in incidents where at least one child was also killed. On average, in an incident where a woman was killed, approximately six children were also killed.

Less than eight percent of these women were killed in incidents where, through open source review, Airwars found that a militant was also killed.

In the 25 days in Gaza, Airwars found that only a fraction of incidents involving the death of civilians included evidence of militant presence.

Of the 606 published incidents of civilian harm from Gaza in October 2023, at least 26 include public evidence of the death of at least one militant from Hamas or another Palestinian militant group. This includes cases where militant status is ambiguous or contested. For example, an individual has been recorded as a militant if they were referred to as “mujahid” or “commander” but no definitive connection to an armed group was found. This corresponds to around four percent of incidents.

In these 26 incidents, a minimum of 522 civilians were killed, alongside a minimum of 32 and maximum of 60 militants. Per incident, where there was evidence of a militant presence, an average of 20 civilians were killed at minimum. Each case recording a militant death recorded an average of one militant death.

By all major metrics used to measure rates of civilian harm, the pace at which civilians were killed in this 25-day period in Gaza outpaces any recent military campaign. The number of civilians killed, the rate of women and children killed, and the rate of munitions used are all on a scale never before documented by Airwars.

While the intensity of strikes and civilian harm in Gaza during October 2023 was unprecedented by modern historical standards, Airwars' research finds that the year since has followed a worryingly similar pattern.
 
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DaisyDay

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I can't think of any acting President or national leader who has been arrested by a foreign government while serving office. Imagine Kazakhstan abducting Joe Biden, and putting him in prison today for supplying weapons to Ukraine. What would the US's response be to that?

IMO, I highly doubt any 1st world country, whose primary leader has been abducted, would stand by idly, and wait the trial out... It would be "insta-war".
Usually we just arrange their overthrow or assassination.

 
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essentialsaltes

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Israel burns northern Gaza’s last functioning hospital; patients and staff removed

Israeli military vehicles surrounded the hospital, the Palestinian Health Ministry said, and communications had been cut off.

In response to a request by NBC News, the Israel Defense Forces said it had targeted the hospital after receiving information about “the presence of terrorist infrastructure and operatives carrying out terror activities” inside.

It added that “IDF troops facilitated the secure evacuation of civilians, patients, and medical personnel prior to the operation” and that it was continuing to “make extensive efforts to enable patients to continue receiving care in other hospitals.”

In an October report, an independent commission for the United Nations accused Israel of perpetrating a "concerted policy to destroy Gaza’s healthcare system as part of a broader assault on Gaza, committing war crimes and the crime against humanity of extermination with relentless and deliberate attacks on medical personnel and facilities."
 
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Landon Caeli

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Israel burns northern Gaza’s last functioning hospital; patients and staff removed

Israeli military vehicles surrounded the hospital, the Palestinian Health Ministry said, and communications had been cut off.

In response to a request by NBC News, the Israel Defense Forces said it had targeted the hospital after receiving information about “the presence of terrorist infrastructure and operatives carrying out terror activities” inside.

It added that “IDF troops facilitated the secure evacuation of civilians, patients, and medical personnel prior to the operation” and that it was continuing to “make extensive efforts to enable patients to continue receiving care in other hospitals.”

In an October report, an independent commission for the United Nations accused Israel of perpetrating a "concerted policy to destroy Gaza’s healthcare system as part of a broader assault on Gaza, committing war crimes and the crime against humanity of extermination with relentless and deliberate attacks on medical personnel and facilities."
"crime against humanity of extermination with relentless and deliberate attacks on medical personnel and facilities"

...Sounds like a far fetched fantasy tale.
 
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Philip_B

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"crime against humanity of extermination with relentless and deliberate attacks on medical personnel and facilities"

...Sounds like a far fetched fantasy tale.
Clearly, many, including me, are more inclined to accept the position of the October report of the independent commission. Essentially Gaza has been attacked significantly, and the health system, which has not been shelled, is barely functioning. The ongoing narrative that Hamas is using the hospitals has worn thin, and I suspect the most recent Presidential election in the US has emboldened some to ignore basic dignity, the rules of war, and the acknowledgment of our common humanity.

Does that mean I don't support Israel? Not at All! However, such support does not extend to approving unreasonable and inhumane actions.
 
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Landon Caeli

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Clearly, many, including me, are more inclined to accept the position of the October report of the independent commission. Essentially Gaza has been attacked significantly, and the health system, which has not been shelled, is barely functioning. The ongoing narrative that Hamas is using the hospitals has worn thin, and I suspect the most recent Presidential election in the US has emboldened some to ignore basic dignity, the rules of war, and the acknowledgment of our common humanity.

Does that mean I don't support Israel? Not at All! However, such support does not extend to approving unreasonable and inhumane actions.
But isn't it true that as long as Hamas continues to exist there, like cockroaches, they will continue to hide in places they think are least likely to be targeted by missile attacks?

I think Israel closing that doorway to Hamas, was handled in the most humane way possible - by evacuating the structure before burning it down. It was the most righteous way of handling it... And still. They are still condemned by a so-called Independent Commission.

...The only other option would have been to just allow Hamas to operate from the hospital, and allow it to occur.
 
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essentialsaltes

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But isn't it true that as long as Hamas continues to exist there, like cockroaches, they will continue to hide in places they think are least likely to be targeted by missile attacks?
Whether true or false, it does not release Israel from the obligation to not commit war crimes.
 
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Landon Caeli

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Whether true or false, it does not release Israel from the obligation to not commit war crimes.
I'm afraid I have to disagree. Please explain why Israel should be expected to abide by the rules of war, when their adversary shrugs off *all* rules to war, all the time, without regard?

If the rules of war cannot be expected from Hamas, because everyone knows they just won't abide, then why should Israel be held to a different standard? I truly hope for an inciteful response.
 
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Landon Caeli

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essentialsaltes

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I'm afraid I have to disagree. Please explain why Israel should be expected to abide by the rules of war
Because they are signatories to the relevant international accords.
 
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Landon Caeli

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Because they are signatories to the relevant international accords.
Palestine and Israel are both parties to the Geneva Convention, meaning that Palestine is equally as culpable in regards to war crimes as Israel is.


Again, my question was in regards to why Israel should be expected to abide by the rules of war but not Palestine. You kind of twisted that around to fit your agenda (by focusing on Israel exclusively) in your return post. Not sure if you're aware that you did it, or if it was an intentional deflection.

It's been commonly noted by many who study the topic that deflection is the most commonly used logical fallacy used by militant Islamists in discussions. I hope Westerners don't think it's okay to adopt that deceitful method of psychological defense, and make it widespread here in the West.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Landon Caeli

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So Gaza is not considered "Palestine"? I actually know it is, and I think everyone knows that Hamas was the elected government, by the people of Palestine in Gaza to represent them, so in fact, it is true that Hamas is equally culpable by the same signatories as Israel, but you only want to highlight Israel until you are called out on it, at which time you give a half-hearted admission that it's true.

...Again, Hamas is still fighting hard, launching rockets into Israel as we speak, attempting to kill more Israeli children and violating the rules of war in much worse ways, and more frequently than Israel.
 
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essentialsaltes

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So Gaza is not considered "Palestine"?
They are not synonymous. Hamas is one of the two belligerents being investigated for crimes. Hamas is not equivalent to Gaza, Gaza is not equivalent to Palestine.

but you only want to highlight Israel until you are called out on it,
False accusation.

Families of Israeli hostages to file war crimes complaint against Hamas in The Hague

Over the past four months, lawyers for the Hostages and Missing Families Forum, which is representing the hostages’ relatives, have prepared a legal submission demanding that arrest warrants be issued against the Hamas leadership for the October 7 atrocities.

The complaint will include charges against Hamas leaders of “kidnapping, crimes of sexual violence, torture and other serious allegations,” the forum said in a statement to the press.


ICC prosecutor seeks arrest warrants for Hamas and Israeli government officials

The prosecutor of the International Criminal Court said Monday that he was seeking arrest warrants against senior officials in the Israel-Gaza conflict, including Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Hamas leader Yehiya Sinwar, on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity.
 
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Landon Caeli

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They are not synonymous. Hamas is one of the two belligerents being investigated for crimes. Hamas is not equivalent to Gaza, Gaza is not equivalent to Palestine.
Says who? By what right can anyone make such a claim that these aspects of that region that lived together as one for all those years are suddenly not one in the same..? But "different"..?

...To me, my gut feelings, which are amazingly accurate, are telling me that this idea of them not being synonymous is just more of that same psychological deception I mentioned earlier, that is invented to favor one side, in an unfair way.
 
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Landon Caeli

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Snort, I'll stick to obvious facts rather than your feelings.
I knew you'd say that. It would set me up for the following message which I've been proclaiming to other posters here lately, and now it's your turn because you're a "fact-based Lifeform"...

The ideas and testimonies of others are what lead investigators and researchers in the discovery of new facts. Without ideas to begin with, there can be no new facts ever again, and we would remain where we are, stagnant, for the rest of time except for current events that occur, but without explanation - because nobody would have the notion to ask questions, and nobody would have "ideas" to guide them in answering questions if anyone did... It would mean the end of human advancement.

Thoughts and ideas are the precursors and the basis of all known facts. That’s why ideas are *primary*, and facts are *secondary*..
 
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essentialsaltes

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I knew you'd say that. It would set me up for the following message which I've been proclaiming to other posters here lately, and now it's your turn because you're a "fact-based Lifeform"...

The ideas and testimonies of others are what lead investigators and researchers in the discovery of new facts. Without ideas to begin with, there can be no new facts ever again, and we would remain where we are, stagnant, for the rest of time except for current events that occur, but without explanation - because nobody would have the notion to ask questions, and nobody would have "ideas" to guide them in answering questions if anyone did... It would mean the end of human advancement.

Thoughts and ideas are the precursors and the basis of all known facts. That’s why ideas are *primary*, and facts are *secondary*..
Your postmodern Critical Republican Theory where you center the lived experience of your feelings does not strike me as a useful lens for looking at the Israeli-Hamas conflict.
 
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Landon Caeli

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Your postmodern Critical Republican Theory where you center the lived experience of your feelings does not strike me as a useful lens for looking at the Israeli-Hamas conflict.
I like your response. It's interesting. But my lived experience, and your lived experience is no longer limited to the neighborhood we live in, with a 1.5 mile radius like it was 100 years ago.

...Now our lived experiences, if we let them in, are equal to a multitude of other people's lived experiences, from around the globe, who have spoken up digitally, and their deepest thoughts, and their reasoning. Now we are as smart as 10 or 20 people, and all known facts are at our fingertips at all times. When we allow it.

The playing field has just recently changed. The old rules are being called into question.
 
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