Israel-Hamas Thread II

[rjs330]

"Defending itself" has morphed into the unnecessary mass murder of as many Gazans as possible while keeping the support of the US.

I'm glad you are very capable of determining what is and what isn't necessary from your lazy boy.

 

[essentialsaltes]

What crimes? Israel has committed no crimes here.

That remains to be determined. Many observers strongly suspect Israel of international crimes, based on the evidence at hand.

 

[rjs330]

Do you know nothing of history? There never was any Palestine for a start. The region was controlled by the Roman empire, by the Muslims, then the Ottoman empire. The Ottomans lost control at the end of WW1. It was then administered by the British. The UN approved a plan for two states, Israel and Palestine. Israel declared independence in May 1948. It was completely legal. So no, Israel did not get a pass. They had the right to be where they were. The original territory they were supposed to enjoy was much reduced, courtesy of British betrayal and double dealing. FYI, I'm English so I'm not biased.

Blaming Israel for the situation is absurd. Get a pass? No other nation gets scrutinised as Israel does. Where is the outrage against Russia, Syria, Turkey and much of North Africa?

Seriously. The UN Human Rights division is a joke. They have filed 5 x more complaints in Israel than they have on any other country try who has obviously been a more serious violator than Israel ever though if being.

Human Rights Just a Joke at the UN

Things are going from bad to worse at the U.N. Come Thursday, the U.N. Human Rights Council will include Libya!

www.hudson.org

 

[rjs330]

"Defending itself" has morphed into the unnecessary mass murder of as many Gazans as possible while keeping the support of the US.

Now you are just spreading Hamas propaganda.

 

[rjs330]

That remains to be determined. Many observers strongly suspect Israel of international crimes, based on the evidence at hand.

That is much different than stating flatly that they have committed crimes as if it's a proven fact. When it's not at this time.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Nope you and others are holding them to an impossible standard. There's a difference. Have you noticed in this entire thread the majority of those on the left are heavily criticizing Israel for their actions and saying very little to nothing about Hamas' actions? If they do it's a one or two sentences before going on with paragraph after paragraph about Israel.

Such is the Spirit that hates God's choosing, which can be traced right back to Amalek - the standards demanded of Israel are disproportionate - not that I consider Israel faultless by any means, but Jewish hatred cuts deep right across the globe, and is spiritually driven.

 

[rjs330]

Hunting down terrorists - work in progress
Stop funding from outside countries? How? Iran is already under sanctions. It has achieved little
Make Hamas less attractive to Palestinians? You are not dealing with a democracy. Hamas simply kills anyone who gets in their way. Islam 101
Israel recognise a Palestinian state? You are kidding, of course. Most Arab countries refuse to accept that Israel is a state. How can you draw borders when you are not recognised?
Israel left a thriving economy in Gaza. Hamas destroyed it. Israel gave work to 18,000 Gazans. They spied for Hamas and facilitated the 7th October attacks.
What Israel does for Gaza post war will depend entirely on the attitude of Gazans. We will see.
You are dreaming if you expect the UN to help Israel against Hamas. What NGOs do you have in mind? And Palestinians may not like Hamas, but they hate Israel far more. It's bred into them, taught in UN funded schools and promoted by the Imams in mosques.

I'm on this forum quite a bit. Israel has come in for far more approbium than Russia, Syria or Turkey. And with much less justification.

I still see no practical solution to the problem. At least you've put some thought into it. That's more than most critics are prepared to do.

Specifically the Palestinians have never recognized Israel as a state. And they have turned down every offer to create their own state.

 

[civilwarbuff]

That remains to be determined. Many observers strongly suspect Israel of international crimes, based on the evidence at hand.

So does that mean the Gazans should be held responsible for the war crimes hamas has committed? After all, they voted them into office and have given their unwavering support to everything hamas has done. Should they not also be held accountable if you want Israel held accountable?

 

[essentialsaltes]

That is much different than stating flatly that they have committed crimes as if it's a proven fact. When it's not at this time.

It's also much different than stating flatly they have "committed no crimes" as if it's a proven fact.

Investigation first, conclusion second.

 

[truthpls]

Are you a Muslim? What do you mean, "let His people go"? Who are "His people"? How can you not blame Hamas for the atrocities? You make no sense.

His people are those that believe in Jesus. In this case, since so many thousands of children were killed in Gaza, I believe God takes them to heaven if they have not reached the age of decision.

 

[truthpls]

So does that mean the Gazans should be held responsible for the war crimes hamas has committed? After all, they voted them into office and have given their unwavering support to everything hamas has done. Should they not also be held accountable if you want Israel held accountable?

Hey, if you want to arrest their leaders and charge them, fine. If you want to fine Gazans or limit trade or whatever because you think they supported killing civilians, find out first. Have a referendum there asking how many support killing babies and families and civilians in the way Hamas did Oct 7.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Have a referendum there asking how many support killing babies and families and civilians in the way Hamas did Oct 7.

It's referendum enough that they have still not turned on hamas. The Gazans remind me of mafia thugs backing the bosses no matter how bad it gets.....until, that is, THEY get confronted. My hope is the Gazans will get confronted even harder until they give up hamas.

 

[Bradskii]

You are living in an alternate reality. I support Israel's right to defend itself. You do not. No, I can't conceive of a better option for Israel. If I did, I'd be on the phone to Netyanahu. But to condemn Israel and not have an alternative is ridiculous. That's the Greta Thunburg approach. "Just stop it". The real world does not work like that.

I guess you must be absolutely astonished that they are close to agreeing a cease fire.

 

[Bradskii]

My hope is the Gazans will get confronted even harder....

Sometimes metaphors can be confusing. But we all understand what you mean.

 

[Bradskii]

So, you want Israel to go to your option 2 but don't have a clue as to what that could be? Thank you for giving us a fine example of the difference between rant-rave criticism and constructive criticism.

No, I want to see if you could even envisage a solution. Other than death and destruction.

 

[Bradskii]

When it comes to war, yes. And probably a host of other things as well. But I will agree that it's not absolute.

Then let's see if you can make any suggestions that aren't absolutely horrendous.

 

[JosephZ]

Specifically the Palestinians have never recognized Israel as a state. And they have turned down every offer to create their own state.

Palestinian leaders, such as President Mahmoud Abbas and Yasser Arafat, have recognized Israel as legitimate in the past.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Palestinian leaders, such as President Mahmoud Abbas and Yasser Arafat, have recognized Israel as legitimate in the past.

Under Yasser Arafat the Israeli Munich Olympics athletes were castrated before being murdered. Such was his distain for the Jews and Israel.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Specifically the Palestinians have never recognized Israel as a state.

nine members of the Arab League recognise Israel: Bahrain, Egypt, Jordan, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Sudan, United Arab Emirates and Palestine

 

[ralliann]

...meanwhile, the PLO punts the ball to the U.S.

"The Palestinian Authority has told the Biden administration that it is open to a governance role in post-Hamas Gaza if the United States commits to a full-fledged two-state solution to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, according to a top official of its parent, the Palestine Liberation Organization.

The official, Hussein al-Sheikh, the P.L.O.’s secretary general, said he had told Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken last week that the Palestinian Authority sought “a commitment from the U.S. administration, with a comprehensive political decision that would include the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and East Jerusalem.”

Palestinian Authority Open to Gaza Role if U.S. Backs 2-State Solution (Published 2023)

The organization, which oversees the West Bank, says it will consider helping run Gaza after the war — if Washington pushes for the creation of a Palestinian state alongside the Israeli one.

www.nytimes.com

....sounds like the offer they had in 2000. The question is, are the Palestinians capable of agreeing on a peace accord?

In any case, Hamas' military capability has to be eliminated first.

Yeah I heard comments about their military capabilites today. They have to leave them no ability for attack. As we have seen however Part of their very powerful military equipment are hostages, which includes their own people.