Israel-Hamas Thread II

[rjs330]

The IDF's current approach is self-defeating. High numbers of civilian casualties and severe damage is precisely what Hamas wants.

Of course it is. That's why they are using human shields. They want civilians to die so that people will tell Israel to stop attacking. Israel is in an impossible situation with some people. If they can't to the impossible then people blame them. No one is standing up and blaming Hamas. No it's all Israel's fault it is said.

 

[rjs330]

wasn't talking specifically about Gazans in that paragraph, but considering that so many Palestinians have witnessed the deaths of their loved ones as a result of the IDF's excessive bombing campaign, there's little doubt this is going to radicalize a great number of Palestinians and many who sympathize with them.

How do you know it's excessive? Are some great military strategist? Are you intimately aware of military intelligence of Hamas and Israel?

And anyone who sympathizes with Hamas was a radical terrorist lover anyway.

According to you and others like you Hamas wins if Israel goes after them. They also win if Israel does nothing. People have been radicalized against Israel since the 1940s. And if Israel gave up now more would continue to be radicalized. If Israel had done nothing more would have been radicalized.

It's apparent you don't really know what's going on over there. Either that or you've been listening to terrorist propaganda.

 

[Valletta]

The Palestine Liberation Organization is the officially recognized government of State of Palestine which includes Gaza.

Actually the Israelis are the Palestinians. That was their slave name for 1900 years or so, named that by the Romans who derived the name from "Philistines." Arafat stole the name to use for propaganda purposes.

 

[JosephZ]

According to you and others like you Hamas wins if Israel goes after them. They also win if Israel does nothing.

Israel can defeat Hamas, they just need to change their stratagy.

 

[rjs330]

More on Israel trying to aid Gazans who wants to flee south.

So much for the claims that Israel just wants to kill them.

Israel's army wants to keep the escape corridor to southern Gaza open - Archyde

2023-11-08 22:44:10 According to a spokesman, Israel’s army wants to enable civilians from the northern Gaza Strip to escape to the south on Thursday. “We will continue to maintain this humanitarian corridor to the south,” army spokesman Daniel Hagari said on Wednesday. This also applies to...

www.archyde.com

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes, thousands of years, with almost no population growth. Interestingly, when Israel got involved, hundreds of thousands of Arabs moved in and started calling themselves "Palestinians".

But to be honest, it parallels the American native story quite a bit, except they were not really compensated since, like those peopling that part of the Ottoman empire, they lived in "tents". A hundred years ago this would have been easy. One country finally attacks the other, wins, and to the victor goes the spoils of war. In fact, this was attempted by the local Arabs in the 1948-49 war but they lost. And the lost at a time when that form of acquiring real estate was finally, in the history of man, going out of favor.

Native Americans have been recognized as sovereign nations by the US federal government and were granted full US citizenship over a century ago. Has Likud done anything similar for Palestinians? No. Palestinians are not considered Israeli citizens, because the current Israeli government believes in Jewish supremacy and rejects a multi-ethnic state and liberal democratic values.

 

[rjs330]

Israel can defeat Hamas, they just need to change their stratagy.

Israel hasn't been able to defeat Hamas by strategy up until now. What strategy do you have that has been proven effective against terrorist organizations?

 

[rjs330]

Native Americans have been recognized as sovereign nations by the US federal government and were granted full US citizenship over a century ago. Has Likud done anything similar for Palestinians? No. Palestinians are not considered Israeli citizens, because the current Israeli government believes in Jewish supremacy.

Why would Palestinians be considered Israeli citizens? They live in Palestine.

 

[JosephZ]

Israel hasn't been able to defeat Hamas by strategy up until now. What strategy do you have that has been proven effective against terrorist organizations?

I outlined a winning strategy in this post.

And it is supported by research.

Terrorist groups end for two major reasons: Members decide to adopt nonviolent tactics and join the political process (43 percent), or local law-enforcement agencies arrest or kill key members of the group (40 percent). Military force has rarely been the primary reason for the end of terrorist groups (7 percent), and few groups since 1968 have achieved victory (10 percent).

Most terrorist groups that have ended did so by pursuing their goals through politics. The possibility of a political solution is linked to a key variable: the breadth of terrorist goals. Most terrorist groups that end because of politics seek narrow policy goals, such as policy change, territorial change, or regime change.

Poor economic conditions may heighten grievances, which provide a more supportive environment for terrorist groups and increase their longevity. Grievances are difficult to measure independently of terrorism, but measures of average levels of discrimination are feasible. Some argue that greater economic inequality creates broad grievances that favor terrorism. “Governments that fail to meet the basic welfare and economic needs of their peoples and suppress their liberties... This means that terrorist groups tend to last longer in poor countries. If so, one way to end terrorism is to improve the economic condition of countries where terrorism is most prevalent.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7249/mg741rc

 

[FireDragon76]

Why would Palestinians be considered Israeli citizens? They live in Palestine.

If depopulating the region of non-Jews and putting them in open air prison camps were really a righteous cause, it wouldn't require this level of apologetics. Nobody has to make arguments for helping old ladies across the street or rescuing cats from trees.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Continuation of the thread closed on 4 Nov 23: Hamas-Israel News Thread

Updates regarding the conflict between Israel and Hamas.

Great little interview with a senior Hamas official who explains that it's their "legal right" to fight against the Israelis....and that in addition to the October 7th massacre, a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th attack are all coming.

What's the appropriate response to such a hostile neighbor who refuses to recognize your own right to exist?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I outlined a winning strategy in this post.

And it is supported by research.

Terrorist groups end for two major reasons: Members decide to adopt nonviolent tactics and join the political process (43 percent), or local law-enforcement agencies arrest or kill key members of the group (40 percent). Military force has rarely been the primary reason for the end of terrorist groups (7 percent), and few groups since 1968 have achieved victory (10 percent).

Most terrorist groups that have ended did so by pursuing their goals through politics. The possibility of a political solution is linked to a key variable: the breadth of terrorist goals. Most terrorist groups that end because of politics seek narrow policy goals, such as policy change, territorial change, or regime change.

Poor economic conditions may heighten grievances, which provide a more supportive environment for terrorist groups and increase their longevity. Grievances are difficult to measure independently of terrorism, but measures of average levels of discrimination are feasible. Some argue that greater economic inequality creates broad grievances that favor terrorism. “Governments that fail to meet the basic welfare and economic needs of their peoples and suppress their liberties... This means that terrorist groups tend to last longer in poor countries. If so, one way to end terrorism is to improve the economic condition of countries where terrorism is most prevalent.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7249/mg741rc

Hamas' goal is the complete elimination of the nation of Israel.

They already are the political process. They consider the murder of Israeli citizens their political method.

As such, driving them entirely from where they exist, and all who support them, is the solution. I understand they are weaker and taking more casualties...so did the nazis when facing the allies.

 

[Valletta]

Native Americans have been recognized as sovereign nations by the US federal government and were granted full US citizenship over a century ago. Has Likud done anything similar for Palestinians? No. Palestinians are not considered Israeli citizens, because the current Israeli government believes in Jewish supremacy and rejects a multi-ethnic state and liberal democratic values.

Israel pulled their settlers and left Gaza, letting Gaza self govern, all they wanted was peace. The Palestinians begged for money and concrete for their infrastructure, they used it for rockets and tunnels to kill Jews. They self govern, they are not Israeli citizens. They have built tunnels to their schools and hospitals so they can fire rockets and if Israel retaliates they can say Israel targeted schools and hospitals. There is absolutely no excuse for Hamas, no justification whatsoever. They put rockets next to U.N. facilities too I see:

Israel says these photos show Hamas rockets in and near U.N. facilities in Gaza

Israel has accused Hamas militants in Gaza of committing "double war crimes" by not only firing rockets at civilians, but firing them from and near United Nations-run facilities.

www.yahoo.com

 

[FireDragon76]

Israel pulled their settlers and left Gaza, letting Gaza self govern, all they wanted was peace. The Palestinians begged for money and concrete for their infrastructure, they used it for rockets and tunnels to kill Jews. They self govern, they are not Israeli citizens. They have built tunnels to their schools and hospitals so they can fire rockets and if Israel retaliates they can say Israel targeted schools and hospitals. There is absolutely no excuse for Hamas, no justification whatsoever. They put rockets next to U.N. facilities too I see:

Israel says these photos show Hamas rockets in and near U.N. facilities in Gaza

Israel has accused Hamas militants in Gaza of committing "double war crimes" by not only firing rockets at civilians, but firing them from and near United Nations-run facilities.

www.yahoo.com

Hamas isn't a government, and Gaza isn't a nation. It's on open-air prison.

 

[wing2000]

Great little interview with a senior Hamas official who explains that it's their "legal right" to fight against the Israelis....and that in addition to the October 7th massacre, a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th attack are all coming.

What's the appropriate response to such a hostile neighbor who refuses to recognize your own right to exist?

Eliminate the neighbor.

When challenged with actions of Hamas terrorists on Oct 7th, he conviently claims he had no details on that and tries to deflect to actions of Israel. Those terrorists were found with written instructions to kill anything that moves.

 

[wing2000]

I outlined a winning strategy in this post.

And it is supported by research.

Terrorist groups end for two major reasons: Members decide to adopt nonviolent tactics and join the political process (43 percent), or local law-enforcement agencies arrest or kill key members of the group (40 percent). Military force has rarely been the primary reason for the end of terrorist groups (7 percent), and few groups since 1968 have achieved victory (10 percent).

Most terrorist groups that have ended did so by pursuing their goals through politics. The possibility of a political solution is linked to a key variable: the breadth of terrorist goals. Most terrorist groups that end because of politics seek narrow policy goals, such as policy change, territorial change, or regime change.

Poor economic conditions may heighten grievances, which provide a more supportive environment for terrorist groups and increase their longevity. Grievances are difficult to measure independently of terrorism, but measures of average levels of discrimination are feasible. Some argue that greater economic inequality creates broad grievances that favor terrorism. “Governments that fail to meet the basic welfare and economic needs of their peoples and suppress their liberties... This means that terrorist groups tend to last longer in poor countries. If so, one way to end terrorism is to improve the economic condition of countries where terrorism is most prevalent.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7249/mg741rc

...there is no question Gaza was the perfect environment to ferment radicaliztion and terrorists for 20+ years. A very young population, with no oppotrunities (very high unemployment), freedom of movement, etc. The same argument was used by the US to justify invading and occupy Afghanistan for nearly two decades. We saw how that turned out...Israel would be wise to repeat it...but I digress.

I think it's also true the Arab governments and various Palestinan actors have utterly failed the Palestinian people by not reaching a political solution with Israel over the past couple of decades.

As David Brooks recently opined:

"Throughout this horrible week, my mind has repeatedly flashed back to Dec. 23, 2000. That was the day the Palestinians were offered a path to having their own nation on roughly 95 percent of the land in the West Bank and 100 percent of the land in the Gaza Strip. Under that outline, Israel would also swap some of its own land to compensate the Palestinians in exchange for maintaining 80 percent of its settler presence in the West Bank.

The Palestinians would control, in President Bill Clinton’s formulation, “Arab areas” of East Jerusalem. And on the most sensitive religious sites, there would have been divided sovereignty or jurisdiction, with Palestinians controlling the Haram al-Sharif (including the Aqsa and Dome of the Rock mosques) and Israel controlling the Western Wall and the holy space of which it is a part. There would also be a return of many refugees into the new Palestinian state (without the right of return to Israel itself).

There were a million complexities — and many errors made by the Israeli, Palestinian and American sides along the way. But this offer pointed the way to the sort of fair solution negotiators had been struggling their way toward for years. It is hard to see this kind of option ever being on the table again. And the Palestinians let it slip away."

...and

"Another reason I think back on this history is the way a simplistic oppressor/oppressed, colonizer/colonized, “apartheid Israel” narrative has been imposed on this conflict.

The real history is much more complicated. It is the story of the Palestinians who were offered a state in 1947 that the Arab states opposed. More recently, it is the story of flawed human beings on both the Israeli and Palestinian sides, who were confronted with a devilishly complicated situation. They worked doggedly to secure peace and made real, if stumbling, progress toward that end. It is the story of how radicals on both sides undermined their efforts, leading to the bloodshed we see today. This is what happens when the center does not hold."

Opinion | The Missed Chance for Peace (Published 2023)

It’s hard not to wonder whether today’s suffering could have been avoided if in 2000 Palestinians had taken the offer of a path toward statehood.

www.nytimes.com

 

[wing2000]

...meanwhile, the PLO punts the ball to the U.S.

"The Palestinian Authority has told the Biden administration that it is open to a governance role in post-Hamas Gaza if the United States commits to a full-fledged two-state solution to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, according to a top official of its parent, the Palestine Liberation Organization.

The official, Hussein al-Sheikh, the P.L.O.’s secretary general, said he had told Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken last week that the Palestinian Authority sought “a commitment from the U.S. administration, with a comprehensive political decision that would include the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and East Jerusalem.”

Palestinian Authority Open to Gaza Role if U.S. Backs 2-State Solution (Published 2023)

The organization, which oversees the West Bank, says it will consider helping run Gaza after the war — if Washington pushes for the creation of a Palestinian state alongside the Israeli one.

www.nytimes.com

....sounds like the offer they had in 2000. The question is, are the Palestinians capable of agreeing on a peace accord?

In any case, Hamas' military capability has to be eliminated first.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

The Nazis were state actors operating at the direction of the state. Hamas is a terror group that forced its rule on the people of Gaza outside of the political process. Hamas operates independently of the recognized government of the Palestinian territories and is a non-state actor. The reason the distinction between the two is important is because many people believe that military force is the answer to defeating Hamas and are supporting Israel's current response to the October 7th terror attack based on that assumption. What works when fighting standing armies doesn't work when fighting terrorist groups.

Military force works on state actors because once the state accepts defeat, the attacks committed by the state end. With terror groups, military force has the opposite effect. When a military response to a terror group is too overwhelming, like we are seeing now in Gaza, it only benefits the terror group. They will gain legitimacy among the people affected by the military campaign, which often leads to more support and more recruits to carry out future attacks.

The only way to defeat Hamas is to recognize this difference and for Israel and the international community to respond to them in the appropriate way. I gave an example of the proper response to Hamas in this post.

Opinions vary on that. (obviously)

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Native Americans have been recognized as sovereign nations by the US federal government and were granted full US citizenship over a century ago. Has Likud done anything similar for Palestinians? No. Palestinians are not considered Israeli citizens, because the current Israeli government believes in Jewish supremacy and rejects a multi-ethnic state and liberal democratic values.

There is no such thing as a Palestinian. It's a fake name, at this point, for Arabs. And LOTS of "Palestinians" have Israeli citizenship.

Palestinian citizens of Israel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It's also important to know that, like every other country on the planet except one, inhabitants of that country do not enjoy the protections of the US constitution and bill of rights. Israel is not unique in that. They are the norm. It's how Canada got away with that law that Jordan Peterson ran afoul of. It wouldn't happen in the US.

 

[Vanellus]

Yeah. Hamas and Gaza are not as big so they don't need to use as much ordinance and troops. But Hamas and Gaza are the same thing as the others. Just smaller. Their target is Israel. And the key point is that Hamas is to Gaza what the Nazis were to Germany.

Hamas doesn't have a navy or an air force and saying they have an army is a huge stretch - nothing like as well organised or well armed comparatively (weapons have been modernised) as either Germany and Japan. They haven't taken over any other countries. Ok they've killed a few thousand but Germany and Japan killed millions - much higher proportions of the populations they attacked. Ehud Barak has said Hamas does not pose an existential threat to Israel as a whole - though they will continue to want to mount atrocities in Israel. Presumably they want to make it so Israelis want to leave though their rhetoric is that Israel won't force them out of Gaza,

That doesn't mean they are better or worse than WW2 Germany/Japan - they are different in kind.