Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Bradskii]

Even if Israel were able to eliminate Hamas tomorrow, they will have already created a whole new generation of Palestinian war survivors that will be fueled by anger, hatred, and a desire for vengeance against those who destroyed their homes and killed their loved ones. Whether it is the remnants of Hamas or another terrorist group all together that fills the void, what follows will be far worse than Hamas ever was in the past. Unfortunately, Israel is fighting an unwinnable war.

You'd think that this would be a blazingly obvious fact even to the most politicaly naive observer. Hamas had zero hope of winning against Israel. Absolutely none whatsoever. But isn't there anyone in their military who can string a few observations together and run a war game scenario matching what has happened? And the result of it?

What's the worst possible scenario in any given situation for Israel? One, that they lose the support of their friends. And two, that they drastically increase the number of their enemies.

Well, you can get out your Sharpie and put two very large ticks in those boxes.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Even if Israel were able to eliminate Hamas tomorrow, they will have already created a whole new generation of Palestinian war survivors that will be fueled by anger, hatred, and a desire for vengeance against those who destroyed their homes and killed their loved ones. Whether it is the remnants of Hamas or another terrorist group all together that fills the void, what follows will be far worse than Hamas ever was in the past. Unfortunately, Israel is fighting an unwinnable war.

The palestinians already hate Jews and want them all dead and gone and Israel's land given to them. How much worse can it actually get?

 

[Bradskii]

No, I did not make it a "numbers game".

Except...

The principles of waging a just war require numerical estimates of innocent lives lost to be proportionate to innocent lives saved.
Hamas expressly wishes to target and kill 6.75 million Jews. Israel does not target any innocent persons. At the extreme, Israeli self-defense may kill 2 million Palestinians many, but not all of whom are innocent; the unjust aggressor, Hamas, may kill 6.75 million innocent Jews. Neither outcome is likely but the ratio 3.38 to 1 is instructive.

In one short paragraph you did nothing but run the numbers. Is this satire? It must be. You certainly don't expect us to take you seriously.

 

[Bradskii]

The palestinians already hate Jews and want them all dead and gone and Israel's land given to them. How much worse can it actually get?

You have no idea. But you will find out. In due time you will definitely find out. At which time you will scratch your head and think 'Wow, never saw that coming'.

 

[Philip_B]

In war it is acceptable for that to happen. That's why it's a war crime to embed yourself with non-combatants. You are putting them at risk. And in the case of Palestine in general it's people support Hamas 70%. So odds are the people surrounding them are supporters of them.

Civilian casualties should be kept to a minimum within the rules of engagement. And Israel is doing what they can to limit the casualties. They are also acting with the rule of engagement as Hamas uses civilians places to hide, stage and fight from. Hospitals, schools etc are legitimate targets if the enemy is there.

And in the case of Palestine in general it's people support Hamas 70%. The difficulty you have is that does not make them combatants.

 

[truthpls]

Because Hamas was using them to move terrorists around.

Face it a major population was ordered to move by Israel. Forced relocation, stop trying to blame a bogey man

 

[truthpls]

No that is perfectly acceptable when the enemy you are fighting is there.

Nope. Barbaric terrorism

It's acceptable in the context of war and the enemy launching attacks from those areas.

No. Prison camps should not be bombed by the occupier (defacto occupier)

To say otherwise is giving terrorists permission to attack you from wherever and however they want. It's a terrorist support position.

Being there on other people's land is the cause.

Yes also populated by terrorists and terrorist supporters. The attacks are allowed in these circumstances.

No, refugee camps you set up are not fair game

There's no such thing as magic bullets that can seek out only terrorists. Be nice if there were. Until someone invents something like that all you can do is tell people to get out. And if they don't then they put themselves at risk.

So do not use bullets until you find who needs to be shot

Nope targeted Hamas and their supports. Which is allowed.

Nope, merely labeling hospitals and apartments etc as Hamas is ridiculous And a lie

Are they babies of supporters and Hamas? If so then who exactly put the babies at risk?

Those who drop bombs on them

Even if they are not the same people are the ones who put them at risk in violation of international law. Hamas and their supporters put them at risk.

No. A highly populated are should not be bombed.

Under those circumstances you can still attack. That's why the law is in place.

The law?

To not strike gives permission to Hamas to hide and strike from anywhere at anytime. You can't win a war if you allow your enemy to hide and strike from anywhere. To claim Israel shouldn't attack Hamas positions is a support for Hamas. Even if unintended.

False. Calling babies hamas positions is a lie.

According to video, audio and journalists.

No, selected ones only

 

[truthpls]

It's a good thing Israel is taking the measures they can to not do that then. They are not eliminating people.

The measure they take mass murders them actually. The rest is baloney and empty blab

 

[truthpls]

Please don't insult my intelligence with this nonsense.

Post coherently. Intelligently. In a Hamas Israel thread posting some little phrase about God supporting killing is neither

 

[civilwarbuff]

You have no idea. But you will find out. In due time you will definitely find out. At which time you will scratch your head and think 'Wow, never saw that coming'.

No, I don't think anything that hamas and its allies can or will do will ever surprise anyone.....especially not me.

 

[Bradskii]

No, I don't think anything that hamas and its allies can or will do will ever surprise anyone.....especially not me.

You need to read this. And understand it: Israel wants to slay the monster next door, but with this bombardment it is feeding it | Jonathan Freedland

'And yet it has to be possible to empathise with Israel’s desire, its need, to be rid of the Hamas monster next door – while still counselling that it is taking the wrong path in Gaza. My most arresting conversation this week was with a formerly high-ranking figure in the US military. He believes that Israel must think not only tactically – hitting the monster – but also strategically, tackling the conditions in which the monster has been bred. In his view, tackling the physical entity of Hamas matters, but so too does the larger “resistance narrative” of which Hamas, like Hezbollah, is a manifestation. To be truly safe, he says, Israel needs to defeat that narrative and the idea at its core: namely, that there can never be peace between Israel and the Palestinian people.

Dispelling that idea would require Israel to offer Palestinians hope: a political horizon that would include the possibility of eventual statehood and an end to occupation. And it would mean fighting a very different war, one that would signal to Palestinians that Israel’s fight is not with them as a people but with Hamas alone. No more 900kg (2000lb) bombs flattening whole neighbourhoods and blanket artillery fire, but rather small teams of infantry, moving quickly, street by street, even house to house – followed by support troops, a “humanitarian wave” bringing food, water and medicine, and turning the electricity back on. That approach might risk a greater number of Israeli casualties, but slowly, says the former commander, Israel would dispel the belief that it is an implacable enemy with whom Palestinians can never be reconciled – and such beliefs matter. “The most important terrain on the planet is the six inches between the ears,” he says.'

 

[civilwarbuff]

You need to read this. And understand it: Israel wants to slay the monster next door, but with this bombardment it is feeding it | Jonathan Freedland

Sorry, but it takes a lot more than someones opinion (as this article is) to dissuade me. I have seen enough things in this life that there is little that surprises me......especially the actions of a terrorist group such as hamas.

 

[Bradskii]

Sorry, but it takes a lot more than someones opinion (as this article is) to dissuade me. I have seen enough things in this life that there is little that surprises me......especially the actions of a terrorist group such as hamas.

Then I guess you were completely unsurprised when Hamas attacked. As opposed to Israel. And you were aware of why they did it. Well done you. And you won't be surprised when there is a drastic increase in the number of terrorists now prepared to attack Israel because of their actions. And you won't be surprised when that attack happens. And you won't be at all surprised at the number of Israelis killed.

Which puzzles me. Because if you can see it coming then why are you dismissing any and all solutions to prevent it?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Then I guess you were completely unsurprised when Hamas attacked. As opposed to Israel. And you were aware of why they did it. Well done you.

You can tuck your sarcasm back in your pocket. Anyone who is surprised that hamas attacked Israel does not understand hamas. Have they repudiated their desire to destroy the Jews and Israel? If so please clue the rest of us in on it and where you have come by such surprising (since that would be the only thing to surprise me about hamas) information and why you kept it hidden from the rest of the world.

And you won't be surprised when there is a drastic increase in the number of terrorists now prepared to attack Israel because of their actions.

And that is nothing but pure supposition and opinion (like the article you posted) much like the McChrystal article about 10 terrorists wanting to join hamas for each one killed (or some such) without providing any evidence to support such a claim. And you swallowed it. It is just as likely that if Israel throws hamas over the brink of extinction that other groups will decide they don't want to go that route. Like the bully who spits in someone's face then gets their butt handed to them on a platter not likely they will try it again.....unless hamas is really stupid (something that wouldn't surprise me; they aren't the brightest bulb in the room). The only thing that would surprise me is if Israel stops short of destroying hamas due to outside pressure. If they do then the chances of another attack in the similar vein increases dramatically (since hamas will count on that outside pressure again).....as does continued assistance from Iran et al.

Which puzzles me. Because if you can see it coming then why are you dismissing any and all solutions to prevent it?

What solutions? No one here has presented any that have the remotest chance of success since they all stop far short of destroying hamas. Remeber hamas' pledge to kill Jews wherever they are but especially in Israel.

 

[JosephZ]

....much like the McChrystal article about 10 terrorists wanting to join hamas for each one killed (or some such) without providing any evidence to support such a claim.

There was evidence provided in that article.

"One of General McChrystal’s aides in Afghanistan calculated that at the beginning of that war there were 1,500 to 2,000 insurgents. Four years later, there were 30,000 to 35,000. A 2010 report found that for each incident involving civilian casualties in Afghanistan, there would be at least one additional violent clash in that same district over the next six weeks. The authors referred to this as the 'revenge' effect."

It's called counter-insurgency mathematics and it's been proven to be true in many conflicts going back to at least the 1980's.

 

[Bradskii]

It is just as likely that if Israel throws hamas over the brink of extinction that other groups will decide they don't want to go that route.

That 'route', in my opinion, and that of others, has served it's purpose. An overreaction by Israel which has lost them friends and gained them enemies. And good grief, you can't destroy a terrorist group. Almost by definition. They don't wear uniforms, they don't sign articles of surrender. They have no home base. There is no Geneva convention to be followed. They don't need regiments and staff sergeants and supply routes.

All they need is a gun, a few kilos of explosives and a willingness to die for what they believe. Or a willingness to take revenge. And good grief, there are a lot of fathers who have lost children or young men who have seen their family blown to pieces who will now willingly volunteer for that.

 

[rjs330]

The ICC considers the use of human shields to be a war crime, yes.
The punishment for that, however, should not be to kill the victims.


It's a war crime because there is a supposition that it would prevent an enemy from attacking an otherwise valid military target because of the civilian deaths. It's illegal because it's 'unfair'. But Israel doesn't care. They show by their actions that they feel justified in killing the innocent alongside the guilty.

Yes that's the way war works. It's okay because if you don't hit Hamas then Hamas continues to hit you and kill your people. So there is acceptable collateral damage when going after military targets who are hiding among civilians. It sucks and it shouldn't be, but it is. It's sad that Hamas is doing that to people. They should stop.

 

[rjs330]

This got me to thinking (I know dangerous): Has anyone ever investigated how many (if any) gazan men, women and children hamas has killed since they have taken power or even since their existence? They seem to have no qualms about killing anyone who gets in their way so I would be surprised if it was none; however I can't seem to find anything to quantify that. Probably not info hamas would want leaked out anyways.

I bet if you asked the Hamas ministry they would say zero. I doubt very much they keep track of that.

 

[Valletta]

So Israel has claimed. But reporting on the ground does not support this assertion, in at least some cases.

The dead and wounded visible in the videos reviewed by The Post included women and children and no weapons or individuals wearing military clothing could be seen. One graphic video, filmed by Gazan content creator Ahmed Hijazee, showed the inside of the ambulance targeted in the strike, including a single female patient lying on a stretcher.

We know the barbarism, savagery, and dishonesty of Hamas. I have seen no evidence that these reported portrayals are not staged.

 

[Valletta]

Even if Israel were able to eliminate Hamas tomorrow, they will have already created a whole new generation of Palestinian war survivors that will be fueled by anger, hatred, and a desire for vengeance against those who destroyed their homes and killed their loved ones. Whether it is the remnants of Hamas or another terrorist group all together that fills the void, what follows will be far worse than Hamas ever was in the past. Unfortunately, Israel is fighting an unwinnable war.

Hopefully non-Hamas Palestinians are horrified at the actions of Hamas and are helping Israel stop Hamas before they can butcher more people. In a similar situation, after the war, the majority of German citizens realized the horrors that the Nazis brought to the world. Yes, some young Germans became new Nazis after the war but most did not. It is not fair to say the allies created these new Nazis, the powers of evil persuaded them.