Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Philip_B]

You have no idea who's innocent and who isn't. You have no idea if the so called civilians are Hamas supporters or not. Odds are they are. I've already addressed the so called Israeli figures from an anonymous source and on verified.

It's acceptable collateral damage for citizens to be kill d during an attack on Hamas. That's why it's a war crime for Hamas to be there in the first place. No one has in magical heat seeking Hamas bullets. If Hamas is there and attacking and staging then it's a legitimate target.

The argument presented here seems flawed. It seems to suggest it may be OK to kill 100 people as some of them may be actively engaged in terrorist activities. The odds are that most of them do not want to be killed, however, we generally do not execute people for their opinions, but rather for their actions.

It is one thing to say that we accept that there will be civilian casualties, however, it is a completely different nuance to suggest that it is acceptable. The rules of engagement, and I am not an expert here, suggest that civilian casualties should be kept to a minimum. Equally, however, it is also understood that certain targets are not acceptable, these include hospitals, schools, Red Cross/Crescent facilities personnel and vehicles. If it becomes apparent that a school or hospital is being used as a shield to stage military activities that clearly lifts the prohibition, and it is generally considered a war crime to make such use of such facilities. The IDF has made much of the tunnel systems in the hospital they attacked.

 

[rjs330]

No one said do not eliminate them. Don't eliminate children. Or civilians.

It's a good thing Israel is taking the measures they can to not do that then. They are not eliminating people.

 

[rjs330]

The argument presented here seems flawed. It seems to suggest it may be OK to kill 100 people as some of them may be actively engaged in terrorist activities. The odds are that most of them do not want to be killed, however, we generally do not execute people for their opinions, but rather for their actions.

It is one thing to say that we accept that there will be civilian casualties, however, it is a completely different nuance to suggest that it is acceptable. The rules of engagement, and I am not an expert here, suggest that civilian casualties should be kept to a minimum. Equally, however, it is also understood that certain targets are not acceptable, these include hospitals, schools, Red Cross/Crescent facilities personnel and vehicles. If it becomes apparent that a school or hospital is being used as a shield to stage military activities that clearly lifts the prohibition, and it is generally considered a war crime to make such use of such facilities. The IDF has made much of the tunnel systems in the hospital they attacked.

In war it is acceptable for that to happen. That's why it's a war crime to embed yourself with non-combatants. You are putting them at risk. And in the case of Palestine in general it's people support Hamas 70%. So odds are the people surrounding them are supporters of them.

Civilian casualties should be kept to a minimum within the rules of engagement. And Israel is doing what they can to limit the casualties. They are also acting with the rule of engagement as Hamas uses civilians places to hide, stage and fight from. Hospitals, schools etc are legitimate targets if the enemy is there.

 

[rjs330]

The problem is, if Hamas is not stopped, Oct 7th will repeat.

Even then, you still have Hezbollah and other proxies of Iran who want to destroy Israel. What is the solution here?

According to the left the solution is to stop and take it. Cause Israel is in a catch 22 with their solutions.

 

[rjs330]

Sorry for shouting but did you get that? The morality of what Israel is doing or will do is not based on what Hamas has done.

That's part of the problem. Until you fully recognize what Hamas you won't see the difference between the two.

 

[o_mlly]

People who have wicked enemies do not become automatically and universally virtuous.

No, they become wagers of a just war. Justice is a virtue. Doing justice is virtuous.

You literally made it a numbers game:

"Weighing innocent lives equally gives Israel, I think, wide latitude in prosecuting their just war."

And you pointed to your determination that the number of innocent Israelis outnumbers even the greatest possible number of Gazan innocents (because there are more Israelis than Gazans).

No, I did not make it a "numbers game". The principles of waging a just war require numerical estimates of innocent lives lost to be proportionate to innocent lives saved.

Hamas expressly wishes to target and kill 6.75 million Jews. Israel does not target any innocent persons. At the extreme, Israeli self-defense may kill 2 million Palestinians many, but not all of whom are innocent; the unjust aggressor, Hamas, may kill 6.75 million innocent Jews. Neither outcome is likely but the ratio 3.38 to 1 is instructive.

 

[o_mlly]

Even if Israel were able to eliminate Hamas tomorrow, they will have already created a whole new generation of Palestinian war survivors that will be fueled by anger, hatred, and a desire for vengeance against those who destroyed their homes and killed their loved ones.

We will not eliminate evil this side of Parousia; we can only hope to mitigate it. Anger, an emotion, is righteous in the face of a present evil. Israel must protect its own from the present evil, Hamas.

If that anger and evil persists into the future then it remains an unjust anger and it must be faced in the future. However, future evil as an argument to do nothing now in the face of a present evil makes no sense.

 

[essentialsaltes]

That's why it's a war crime to embed yourself with non-combatants. You are putting them at risk.

Right, the non-combatants are innocent.

And in the case of Palestine in general it's people support Hamas 70%. So odds are the people surrounding them are supporters of them.

Wait, now you're casting blame on the victims.

 

[rjs330]

So Israel has claimed. But reporting on the ground does not support this assertion, in at least some cases.

The dead and wounded visible in the videos reviewed by The Post included women and children and no weapons or individuals wearing military clothing could be seen. One graphic video, filmed by Gazan content creator Ahmed Hijazee, showed the inside of the ambulance targeted in the strike, including a single female patient lying on a stretcher.

Oh a Gazan creator. Yeah that's trustworthy. Also Hamas doesn't wear uniforms. They can be men, women and kids. Civilians were engaged in the attack on Israel. No sorry not buying all the propaganda. We know Hamas uses ambulances to move people around. And if Israel had reason to believe there were Hamas or their agents, supporter they could strike. They don't have magic Hamas seeking bullets. They go off of beat Intel and contacts. Once again if Hamas didn't use ambulances then no ambulances would have been hit. Hamas fault once again.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The principles of waging a just war require numerical estimates of innocent lives lost to be proportionate to innocent lives saved.

That's just silly. Where, if anywhere, did you discover such a rule?

At the extreme, Israeli self-defense may kill 2 million Palestinians many, but not all of whom are innocent; the unjust aggressor, Hamas, may kill 6.75 million innocent Jews. Neither outcome is likely but the ratio 3.38 to 1is instructive.

Instructive? No, it's inane and hypothetical.

If we talk reality, Hamas killed ~1200 people in Israel (not all Israeli) in the initial attack. Let's give the foreigners and non-Jews the benefit of the doubt and make them all innocent by your rule. A few dozen more IDF soldiers have also been killed.

You were gracious enough to say that Gazan children could be considered innocent. Estimates of their deaths so far are in the multiple thousands.

Israel has killed more innocent people already, and is killing more by the day.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Oh a Gazan creator. Yeah that's trustworthy.

We know Hamas uses ambulances to move people around.

Where is the evidence from someone you consider trustworthy?

 

[rjs330]

Even if Israel were able to eliminate Hamas tomorrow, they will have already created a whole new generation of Palestinian war survivors that will be fueled by anger, hatred, and a desire for vengeance against those who destroyed their homes and killed their loved ones. Whether it is the remnants of Hamas or another terrorist group all together that fills the void, what follows will be far worse than Hamas ever was in the past. Unfortunately, Israel is fighting an unwinnable war.

They could equally be fueled by contriteness, understanding and self reflection. But with a blood thirsty death loving people it's difficult. They already are fueled by hatred and vengeance. That's why they teach their children to hate and kill Jews. That's why they support Hamas attacks in Israel. That's why they attacked Israel in the first place. Israel is now letting them know the consequences for their actions. If they don't learn from this they will deserve whatever happens next.

 

[rjs330]

Right, the non-combatants are innocent.

That's an assumption you are making. Regardless that's why it's a war crime to be there. Because the enemy doesn't know. Therefore the you and those you are hiding behind are legitimate targets that you are allowing to be at risk by being there.

Wait, now you're casting blame on the victims.

They are not victims if they are a terrorist supporter. And if they are not supporters then they are victims of the terrorists who are using them. That's why it's a war crime to hide behind, use, stage, and launch attacks from civilian spaces like that. Hamas' is the perpetrator and the criminal. The things you state are typical leftist arguments that do nothing but enable terrorists even if that not the intent.

 

[essentialsaltes]

United Nations relief agency chief says number of civilians killed in Gaza "is rapidly increasing"​

UNRWA is currently housing more than 1.2 million people in shelters, including in southern Gaza, according to the agency.

"The evacuation order pushes people to concentrate into what is less than one-third of the Gaza Strip. They need everything: food, water, shelter, and mostly safety. Roads to the south are clogged," Lazzarini said, noting that access to water is limited in Gaza.

Lazzarini writes to the UN (and publicly shared on X)
I have omitted a few paragraphs for (a slight amount of) brevity.

 

[essentialsaltes]

And if they are not supporters then they are victims of the terrorists who are using them.

The ICC considers the use of human shields to be a war crime, yes.
The punishment for that, however, should not be to kill the victims.

That's why it's a war crime to hide behind, use, stage, and launch attacks from civilian spaces like that.

It's a war crime because there is a supposition that it would prevent an enemy from attacking an otherwise valid military target because of the civilian deaths. It's illegal because it's 'unfair'. But Israel doesn't care. They show by their actions that they feel justified in killing the innocent alongside the guilty.

 

[Bradskii]

In a thread about Israel and Hamas when this is said "
'They're killing everyone!'
'But they said that God told them to'.
'Oh. My bad. Sorry to have interrupted'. "

The context seems to be Israel acting as if God told them to do what they are doing.

Now you are digging deeper into a mistake. Perhaps either explain what your 'God told them to do it' refers to, if anything, or drop it

Please don't insult my intelligence with this nonsense.

 

[Bradskii]

The number of Israeli innocent persons at risk at the extreme is 6.75 million; the number of Gazan innocent persons is less than 2 million. Weighing innocent lives equally gives Israel, I think, wide latitude in prosecuting their just war.

Is that your argument? Israel has more innocent people so relatively speaking they can be excused for the numbers they kill. Am I meant to take that seriously?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Since the initial terrorist attack, Hamas has not been in a position to kill many additional children.

For the past two months it has primarily been the IDF killing children, roughly 100 times as many as Hamas killed.

This got me to thinking (I know dangerous): Has anyone ever investigated how many (if any) gazan men, women and children hamas has killed since they have taken power or even since their existence? They seem to have no qualms about killing anyone who gets in their way so I would be surprised if it was none; however I can't seem to find anything to quantify that. Probably not info hamas would want leaked out anyways.

 

[essentialsaltes]

This got me to thinking (I know dangerous): Has anyone ever investigated how many (if any) gazan men, women and children hamas has killed since they have taken power

Per Human Rights Watch (covering only the first couple years after Hamas seized power):

During the chaos of Israel’s offensive, which killed approximately 1,350 Palestinian civilians and combatants and wounded about 5,000, Hamas security forces or masked gunmen believed to be with Hamas extra-judicially executed 18 people, mainly those accused of collaborating with Israel. Masked gunmen also beat and maimed by shooting dozens of Hamas’s political opponents, especially members and supporters of its main political rival, Fatah.

The internal violence in Gaza has continued since Israel withdrew its forces. Palestinian human rights groups in Gaza have reported 14 more killings between January 18 and March 31, 2009.

Amnesty International for the time around the conflict in 2014:

‘Strangling Necks’: Abduction, torture and summary killings of Palestinians by Hamas forces during the 2014 Gaza/Israel conflict highlights a series of abuses, such as the extrajudicial execution of at least 23 Palestinians and the arrest and torture of dozens of others, including members and supporters of Hamas’s political rivals, Fatah.

 

[Bradskii]

You have no idea who's innocent and who isn't. You have no idea if the so called civilians are Hamas supporters or not.

If they weren't before this mess started then they may well be now. And that still doesn't give anyone the right to kill non combatants. In any given war the citizens of one country will be supporters of their own military. But an atrocity by one country doesn not allow you to kill citizens of another.

People can bleat about the fact that they are not specifically being targeted, and that seems to be some morally twisted mental gymnastics that allows people to say it's justified, but the death toll is horrendous. And you argue about the figures because you know that and you don't want to admit that you think that number of innocent dead is acceptable.

It's not. No matter how bad you paint Hamas, no matter if populations are juggled in some fatuous attempt to justify it, no matter what heinous acts are reported to have been done by Hamas, Israel has overstepped what any reasonable person would accept as a morally acceptable response. You know this as a fact.