Israel-Hamas Thread II

truthpls said:

You said this

"
'They're killing everyone!'
'But they said that God told them to'.
'Oh. My bad. Sorry to have interrupted'. "

Nowher is 'Saul' mentioned. Considering the thread I assumed it was Israel. If not you need to specify

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It was a general statement that anyone could make. You assumed right from the start that anyone who said it was a liar. You said as such. Not knowing who said it. A blanket statement.

Now you have to explain why some people who say it are liars and some aren't. Are you going to adjudicate on every example? Where do we find out who speaks for God and who doesn't. It's important. I need to know. Please tell me.
.

Valletta said:

All of the propaganda in the world does not mask the true actions of Hamas, the rape, torture, execution, the lying, the breaking of the cease fire.

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How many more of these posts do we have to suffer? YES we know how bad Hamas is. YES we know what they have done. Excuse me, but the next sentence will be in all caps as this vary basic point seems to be incapable of being understood by so many.

WE ARE NOT COMPARING ISRAEL WITH HAMAS.

Sorry for shouting but did you get that? The morality of what Israel is doing or will do is not based on what Hamas has done.

Bradskii said:

It was a general statement that anyone could make. You assumed right from the start that anyone who said it was a liar. You said as such. Not knowing who said it. A blanket statement.

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In a thread about Israel and Hamas when this is said "
'They're killing everyone!'
'But they said that God told them to'.
'Oh. My bad. Sorry to have interrupted'. "

The context seems to be Israel acting as if God told them to do what they are doing.

Bradskii said:

Now you have to explain why some people who say it are liars and some aren't. Are you going to adjudicate on every example? Where do we find out who speaks for God and who doesn't. It's important. I need to know. Please tell me.
.

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Now you are digging deeper into a mistake. Perhaps either explain what your 'God told them to do it' refers to, if anything, or drop it

Journalists’ rights group counts 94 media workers killed worldwide in 2023, mostly in Gaza [68]​

“The war in Gaza has been more deadly for journalists than any single conflict since the [International Federation of Journalists] began recording journalists killed in the line of duty in 1990,” the group said, adding that deaths have come at “a scale and pace of loss of media professionals’ lives without precedent.”

Bradskii said:

The morality of what Israel is doing or will do is not based on what Hamas has done.

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Oh, but I beg to differ. Israel is waging a just war against Hamas, the unjust aggressor. That difference is an important categorical moral distinction.

I think we agree that:

• Hamas is an evil organization that has and continues to commit evil acts.
• Hamas pledges to continue its evil acts until Israel is no more.
• Palestinians who materially cooperate with Hamas' evil acts are not innocent.
• Israel has a conditional right to self-defense.

Hamas knows that ius in bellum theory allows those waging the just war to target sites that store war making supplies. They also know that ius in bellum obligates those waging the just war to limit the loss of innocent lives in prosecuting the just war. So, Hamas places their war making supplies along with innocent Palestinians in presumably innocent locations. Are the Palestinians who choose to not flee from those compromised locations still innocent? Are those Palestinians that for good moral reasons remain in those locations cooperating to some extent with Hamas? I think so. Those who choose to remain at risk must accept the risk.

Regarding the numbers. The total population of Israel is ~ 9 millions; and ~ 6.75 millions of the total are of Jewish ethnicity. Of those 9 million, at least 6.75 million are innocent persons. Hamas is committed to kill, or at least displace, those 6.75 million.

The population of Gaza is ~ 2 millions. 1.96 million are Sunni Muslims. “Innocent” in wartime means all those not engaged in creating harm. We do not know how many Gazans are truly innocent. But it is hard to see, for example, how infants and young children could be anything other than innocent during wartime. CIA fact sheets report that of the 2 million Gazans, only ~ 280M are 9 years old or less. We presume at least that number of persons are innocent.

If someone is in danger of lethal harm, or if one or more of their important rights is being violated, by another then causing the other harm, even depriving others of their lives, can be justified. Israel just defense, given Hamas history, includes acts to prevent future terrorist attacks to protect innocent lives. How many innocent lives are at risk?

The number of Israeli innocent persons at risk at the extreme is 6.75 million; the number of Gazan innocent persons is less than 2 million. Weighing innocent lives equally gives Israel, I think, wide latitude in prosecuting their just war.

wing2000 said:

...yes, saying there is a "terror city" is misleading IMO. She could have said, "we believe there are Hama command centers under the hospital complex" And of course, ambassadors, military spokes people, etc are supporting the Israli narrative. That's their role.
Governments who take theri countries of war have a tendency to be unequivocal. Recall the US unequivocal claims about "WMD" in the days leading up to the Iraq invasion. There was talk of mushroom clouds over American cities if we didn't stop Sadaam....

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Yes and that talk of WMD and mushroom clouds was entirely wrong.

o_mlly said:

Are the Palestinians who choose to not flee from those compromised locations still innocent?

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The ICC considers the use of human shields to be a war crime, yes.
The punishment for that, however, should not be to kill the victims.

o_mlly said:

Are those Palestinians that for good moral reasons remain in those locations cooperating to some extent with Hamas? I think so.

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I don't.

o_mlly said:

Those who choose to remain at risk must accept the risk.

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There are no non-risky places in Gaza. Unless you're badly injured or you have a foreign embassy on your side, there's no practical way to leave Gaza. Many homes have been destroyed, and there is no alternative but to go to refugee camps, or other places thought to be safe (e.g. hospitals and schools).

o_mlly said:

Regarding the numbers. The total population of Israel is ~ 9 millions; and ~ 6.75 millions of the total are of Jewish ethnicity. Of those 9 million, at least 6.75 million are innocent persons.

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So the non-Jewish Israelis are morally suspect? Jewish Israelis are automatically innocent?

o_mlly said:

The population of Gaza is ~ 2 millions. 1.96 million are Sunni Muslims. We do not know how many Gazans are truly innocent.

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How did you know that all Jewish Israelis were innocent?

o_mlly said:

The number of Israeli innocent persons at risk at the extreme is 6.75 million; the number of Gazan innocent persons is less than 2 million. Weighing innocent lives equally gives Israel, I think, wide latitude in prosecuting their just war.

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Ludicrous. Because Israelis are more numerous, they are morally superior and given carte blanche.

truthpls said:

Some say otherwise. We do know convoys and ambulances etc were attacked by Israel. That'll do er

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Because Hamas was using them to move terrorists around.

Jerusalem deputy mayor calls for Palestinian detainees in Gaza to be buried alive describing them as "subhuman" and "ants".

Israeli official calls for burying alive 'subhuman' Palestinian civilians

King added that if it were up to him, he would have used the D-9 armoured bulldozers to bury the men alive, calling them "ants".

"They are not human beings and not even human animals, they are subhuman and that is how they should be treated," King said

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truthpls said:

Too bad they live there also. No excuse for wiping people out.

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No that is perfectly acceptable when the enemy you are fighting is there.

truthpls said:

Regardless of the bogey man or whatever else you want to blame it on, Israel is bombing children to death

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It's acceptable in the context of war and the enemy launching attacks from those areas. To say otherwise is giving terrorists permission to attack you from wherever and however they want. It's a terrorist support position.

truthpls said:

Baloney. They attacked a heavily populated area, all claims of being humane are out the window.

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Yes also populated by terrorists and terrorist supporters. The attacks are allowed in these circumstances. There's no such thing as magic bullets that can seek out only terrorists. Be nice if there were. Until someone invents something like that all you can do is tell people to get out. And if they don't then they put themselves at risk.

truthpls said:

False. They targeted apartments etc

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Nope targeted Hamas and their supports. Which is allowed. There aren't any magic bullets. So you hit the places Hamas and their supporters are at. There is no way JUST to target Hamas alone in those circumstances. I think you watch too many sci Fi movies or something.

truthpls said:

So babies are supporters?

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Are they babies of supporters and Hamas? If so then who exactly put the babies at risk? Even if they are not the same people are the ones who put them at risk in violation of international law. Hamas and their supporters put them at risk. Under those circumstances you can still attack. That's why the law is in place. To not strike gives permission to Hamas to hide and strike from anywhere at anytime. You can't win a war if you allow your enemy to hide and strike from anywhere. To claim Israel shouldn't attack Hamas positions is a support for Hamas. Even if unintended.

truthpls said:

Says the IDF?

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According to video, audio and journalists.

essentialsaltes said:

The ICC considers the use of human shields to be a war crime, yes.
The punishment for that, however, should not be to kill the victims.

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No, the Israeli's may not target innocent civilians. They may unintentionally kill them with the other caveats.

essentialsaltes said:

I don't.

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Those who freely remaining as Hamas' human shields when one has the opportunity to escape renders one's innocence suspect.

essentialsaltes said:

There are no non-risky places in Gaza. Unless you're badly injured or you have a foreign embassy on your side, there's no practical way to leave Gaza. Many homes have been destroyed, and there is no alternative but to go to refugee camps, or other places thought to be safe (e.g. hospitals and schools).

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There are no non-risky places in anywhere. There are less risky places than being in a hospital or school that is used by Hamas' weapons bunker.

essentialsaltes said:

So the non-Jewish Israelis are morally suspect? Jewish Israelis are automatically innocent?

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Yes and yes. Hamas members pray for "slaughter, extermination, and annihilation" of only Jews.

essentialsaltes said:

How did you know that all Jewish Israelis were innocent?

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Israel is conducting a just war and its citizens and soldiers are innocent unless they commit prohibited acts in a just war.

essentialsaltes said:

Ludicrous. Because Israelis are more numerous, they are morally superior and given carte blanche.

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Strawman. That is not the argument.

rjs330 said:

Because Hamas was using them to move terrorists around.

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Vanellus said:

Jerusalem deputy mayor calls for Palestinian detainees in Gaza to be buried alive describing them as "subhuman" and "ants".

Israeli official calls for burying alive 'subhuman' Palestinian civilians

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O understand his feelings based upon what they've done. You can't blame him for his emotions under the circumstances of what the terrorists and their supporters have done and say they are going to keep doing. I sympathize with him

rjs330 said:

Because Hamas was using them to move terrorists around.

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So Israel has claimed. But reporting on the ground does not support this assertion, in at least some cases.

The dead and wounded visible in the videos reviewed by The Post included women and children and no weapons or individuals wearing military clothing could be seen. One graphic video, filmed by Gazan content creator Ahmed Hijazee, showed the inside of the ambulance targeted in the strike, including a single female patient lying on a stretcher.

o_mlly said:

Yes and yes. Hamas members pray for "slaughter, extermination, and annihilation" of only Jews.

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People who have wicked enemies do not become automatically and universally virtuous.

o_mlly said:

Strawman. That is not the argument.

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You literally made it a numbers game:

"Weighing innocent lives equally gives Israel, I think, wide latitude in prosecuting their just war."

And you pointed to your determination that the number of innocent Israelis outnumbers even the greatest possible number of Gazan innocents (because there are more Israelis than Gazans).

Bradskii said:

Yet you said it was a waste of time. Notwithstanding that this whole debacle is an excellent way of recruiting more terrorists to the Hamas cause. Do you honestly think that will be a surprise to Hamas?

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The idea is to take Hamas out. Terrorists don't need Hamas to be terrorists, but you can take out the organization. Actions have consequences. What's happening is a direct consequence of Hamas actions. As it should be.

Bradskii said:

More pressure because more innocent people are being killed. And making sure everyone knows the toll is not biased and misleading, which is how we define propaganda. Especially when the figures are from the Israelis themselves. It's what's called coming to terms with reality. Which most here seem to want to avoid.

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You have no idea who's innocent and who isn't. You have no idea if the so called civilians are Hamas supporters or not. Odds are they are. I've already addressed the so called Israeli figures from an anonymous source and on verified.

It's acceptable collateral damage for citizens to be kill d during an attack on Hamas. That's why it's a war crime for Hamas to be there in the first place. No one has in magical heat seeking Hamas bullets. If Hamas is there and attacking and staging then it's a legitimate target.

rjs330 said:

The idea is to take Hamas out. Terrorists don't need Hamas to be terrorists, but you can take out the organization. Actions have consequences. What's happening is a direct consequence of Hamas actions. As it should be.

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Even if Israel were able to eliminate Hamas tomorrow, they will have already created a whole new generation of Palestinian war survivors that will be fueled by anger, hatred, and a desire for vengeance against those who destroyed their homes and killed their loved ones. Whether it is the remnants of Hamas or another terrorist group all together that fills the void, what follows will be far worse than Hamas ever was in the past. Unfortunately, Israel is fighting an unwinnable war.

Bradskii said:

Just answer this simple question. Don't answer it with another. Just a straightforward answer. Do you think the deaths of so many people are increasing or decreasing the number of people who would want to harm Israel?

And anyone can feel free to add a little rainbow icon to this post.

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No I don't. There is a deep seated hatred of Israel in the middle east. I don't think it's going to be greater as the hatred is so pervasive that nothing is going stop it. In fact if Israel finishes this I think it's less likely they will be attacked any time soon like they have been.