Israel-Hamas Thread II

[wing2000]

Gaza must not be reoccupied, should be run by Palestinians, says Blinken​

Netanyahu’s declaration earlier this week that Israel could assume responsibility for Gaza’s security “for an indefinite period” set off red flags for the Biden administration, whose stance is that Israel needs to avoid any suggestion of an open-ended occupation of Gaza, U.S. officials said on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive internal discussions.

“The United States believes key elements should include no forcible displacement of Palestinians from Gaza. Not now, not after the war,” Blinken added. “No use of Gaza as a platform for terrorism or other violent attacks. No reoccupation of Gaza after the conflict ends. No attempt to blockade or besiege Gaza. No reduction in the territory of Gaza.”

“Gaza cannot continue to be run by Hamas,” Blinken said. “It’s also clear that Israel cannot occupy Gaza. Now the reality is that there may be a need for some transition period at the end of the conflict, but it is imperative that the Palestinian people be central to the governance of Gaza and the West Bank.”

IMO, Netanyahu is implying that Israel will have a say in the security plan for Gaza moving forward. I doubt Israel wants to occupy or govern Gaza for the long term. The question is who? The US suggested the PLO...but from what I have read, the PLO is barely managing in the West Bank.

 

[wing2000]

Not to mention it's anti-Semetic to do so. When you put more pressure on Jews to put up with the attacks and have no response to the blatant killing of their people while at the same time blaming them for the attacks on their people and refusing to call for the end of the attacks is blatantly anti-Semitic.

Non-sense.

We hold Israel and other allies to higher standard because of who they are - a democracy with with Western values!

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Gaza must not be reoccupied, should be run by Palestinians, says Blinken​

Netanyahu’s declaration earlier this week that Israel could assume responsibility for Gaza’s security “for an indefinite period” set off red flags for the Biden administration, whose stance is that Israel needs to avoid any suggestion of an open-ended occupation of Gaza, U.S. officials said on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive internal discussions.

“The United States believes key elements should include no forcible displacement of Palestinians from Gaza. Not now, not after the war,” Blinken added. “No use of Gaza as a platform for terrorism or other violent attacks. No reoccupation of Gaza after the conflict ends. No attempt to blockade or besiege Gaza. No reduction in the territory of Gaza.”

“Gaza cannot continue to be run by Hamas,” Blinken said. “It’s also clear that Israel cannot occupy Gaza. Now the reality is that there may be a need for some transition period at the end of the conflict, but it is imperative that the Palestinian people be central to the governance of Gaza and the West Bank.”

I really don't see the Hamas attack as a "Hamas" attack. Israel was attacked by Gaza, in the same way Poland was attacked by Germany, not the Nazi party. Frankly, I see the spoil of war as all of Gaza. They gave back the Sinai peninsula after winning a defensive war. This time they probably won't make a similar mistake. As they say, "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Flood the tunnels and let the people leave to their original homelands. e.g. Egypt, Jordan, etc. Then flatten what is there and build some nice CIVILIZED communities like the ones Gaza attacked, and call it good.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

IMO, Netanyahu is implying that Israel will have a say in the security plan for Gaza moving forward. I doubt Israel wants to occupy or govern Gaza for the long term. The question is who? The US suggested the PLO...but from what I have read, the PLO is barely managing in the West Bank.

I'm all for Israel simply annexing it. They've tried all those other failed solutions. The question is, are they actually serious about a lasting peace this time, or do they just want a repeat of the last 75 years?

 

[essentialsaltes]

They gave back the Sinai peninsula after winning a defensive war.

Israel initiated the Six Day War with a surprise attack.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

...Hamas still has 200+ hostages believed to be in the tunnels somewhere. Besides, I doubt Israel has the capability to pump that much water into the tunnel system. From what I read, army engineers are using explosives to destroy tunnels as ground units advance.

The ocean is pretty close by. And what do rats do when you start flooding their home? Regarding the hostages, my take is a bit callous. I'll just leave it at that other than to amplify thusly: The 90,000 to 140,000 people in Hiroshima gave their lives involuntarily so that the lives of many millions could be spared.

BTW, my daughter and her husband (and their two very young children) were slated to go to Israel several months ago for some quantum computing work. They are very glad it was put on hold. Most of his extended family lives in Israel and though none of them were killed or taken hostage, several of their friends was.

At the end of the day, life is a mist. We lost our oldest son in a car wreck two years ago (he was 44). It was life changing and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. But I understand the value of individual lives during a state of war. Both combatants and civilians. They are different when you are fighting a proxy (e.g. Vietnam) vs a war for your very survival (e.g. England in 1940). This is the latter. The rules are different and, to be frank, more brutal.

 

[essentialsaltes]

and let the people leave to their original homelands.

The original homelands of the people in the UNRWA refugee camps is in Israel.

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Israel initiated the Six Day War with a surprise attack.

Yes they did. And rightly so. And to be frank, that is merely a technicality, as discussed fairly well here: Six-Day War | Definition, Causes, History, Summary, Outcomes, & Facts

 

[Reasonably Sane]

The original homelands of the people in the UNRWA refugee camps is in Israel.

That's a bit like saying the children of illegal migrant parents in California can declare California as their "homeland". It may be where they live, but their homeland is the country their parents illegally migrated from.

Obviously the line between illegal and "legal" migrant in the middle east is much more blurry, but at the end of the day, that is the whole problem here. This is why AFTER 1948 the number of arabs in israel massively increased. And now they claim it as their "palestinian" homeland much as Elizabeth Warren claims to be native American. It looks like the charade is finally coming to a close in Israel and Gaza (and hopefully soon the west bank). There is a LOT of land in that area. That everyone is agruing over the tiny slice occupied by the singular civilized (and non-muslim) country there would be funny if not so serious.

 

[wing2000]

Forty-four percent of U.S. adults view Israel as an ally, a significant increase from before the Israel-Gaza war, according to a new poll released Wednesday by the Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research.
But Americans are divided on Israel’s conduct in the war, with 40 percent saying Israel’s military response in Gaza had gone too far, compared with 38 percent saying it was the correct level and 18 percent saying it didn’t go far enough.

Only 32 percent of Americans had viewed Israel as an ally in a separate poll conducted by the AP-NORC Center in August, before the war began on Oct. 7 with the Hamas attacks on Israel.

Americans generally blame Hamas for the war, with 66 percent saying the group is “a lot” to blame for the conflict, compared with 35 percent for Israel and 33 percent for Iran, which has been accused of funding Hamas and supporting its militancy.
The poll was conducted Nov. 2-6 with interviews both online and by landline telephone and cellphone with 1,239 adults. The margin of sampling error is plus or minus 3.9 percentage points.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/08/israel-war-news-hamas-gaza-palestine/#link-QBKGGNUYOVAA5PH6JLNQOVF7MI

 

[Reasonably Sane]

Forty-four percent of U.S. adults view Israel as an ally, a significant increase from before the Israel-Gaza war, according to a new poll released Wednesday by the Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research.
But Americans are divided on Israel’s conduct in the war, with 40 percent saying Israel’s military response in Gaza had gone too far, compared with 38 percent saying it was the correct level and 18 percent saying it didn’t go far enough.

Only 32 percent of Americans had viewed Israel as an ally in a separate poll conducted by the AP-NORC Center in August, before the war began on Oct. 7 with the Hamas attacks on Israel.

Americans generally blame Hamas for the war, with 66 percent saying the group is “a lot” to blame for the conflict, compared with 35 percent for Israel and 33 percent for Iran, which has been accused of funding Hamas and supporting its militancy.
The poll was conducted Nov. 2-6 with interviews both online and by landline telephone and cellphone with 1,239 adults. The margin of sampling error is plus or minus 3.9 percentage points.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/08/israel-war-news-hamas-gaza-palestine/#link-QBKGGNUYOVAA5PH6JLNQOVF7MI

Though this is encouraging, I don't trust anything that comes out of a news organization that had to settle with Nick Sandmann. Period.

 

[rjs330]

What happened to "safe spaces" and "micro-aggressions" that these places are known for?

That's because these places are anti-Semetic. Can you imagine the outrage and media pressure that would be out on these colleges if it was a black man beaten up or assaulted? Or a professor who spoke out against the riots of 2020?

 

[rjs330]

Forty-four percent of U.S. adults view Israel as an ally, a significant increase from before the Israel-Gaza war, according to a new poll released Wednesday by the Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research.
But Americans are divided on Israel’s conduct in the war, with 40 percent saying Israel’s military response in Gaza had gone too far, compared with 38 percent saying it was the correct level and 18 percent saying it didn’t go far enough.

Only 32 percent of Americans had viewed Israel as an ally in a separate poll conducted by the AP-NORC Center in August, before the war began on Oct. 7 with the Hamas attacks on Israel.

Americans generally blame Hamas for the war, with 66 percent saying the group is “a lot” to blame for the conflict, compared with 35 percent for Israel and 33 percent for Iran, which has been accused of funding Hamas and supporting its militancy.
The poll was conducted Nov. 2-6 with interviews both online and by landline telephone and cellphone with 1,239 adults. The margin of sampling error is plus or minus 3.9 percentage points.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/11/08/israel-war-news-hamas-gaza-palestine/#link-QBKGGNUYOVAA5PH6JLNQOVF7MI

That's because of the steady drumbeat of anti-Semetism from the lame stream media instead of blaming Hamas for the deaths of their own civilians. When people only hear one side they have a tendency to stear that way. The media has tremendous influence and they know it. And they are absolutely anti-Semetic. Can you imagine with all the anti-Semetic media the numbers against Israel are still small.

If the media spent more time telling the truth about what Hamas was doing there would be more support for Israel.

 

[wing2000]

That's because of the steady drumbeat of anti-Semetism from the lame stream media instead of blaming Hamas for the deaths of their own civilians. When people only hear one side they have a tendency to stear that way. The media has tremendous influence and they know it. And they are absolutely anti-Semetic. Can you imagine with all the anti-Semetic media the numbers against Israel are still small.

If the media spent more time telling the truth about what Hamas was doing there would be more support for Israel.

The poll indicates more people view Israel as an ally than before the conflict. I'm not sure why you think that's an issue.

As for the media, cite one example of an article that is "anti-Semetic" in your view.

 

[rjs330]

That sounds like somebody with no actual real familiarity with Muslims.

The Muslims I have know have been more humane people than many Christians I have known.

That's because you don't hang with radical Muslims. They would murder you.

How many Christians do you know who are going into villages and tying families together and burning them all alive. Or walking up to children and shooting them in the head? Or burning babies alive in ovens while forcing the mothers to watch. I think you have a strange concept.

No one is claiming all Muslims are like that, but I ask you where are the nice Muslims marching in the streets protesting the terrorism of Hamas?

 

[Reasonably Sane]

That's because of the steady drumbeat of anti-Semetism from the lame stream media instead of blaming Hamas for the deaths of their own civilians. When people only hear one side they have a tendency to stear that way. The media has tremendous influence and they know it. And they are absolutely anti-Semetic. Can you imagine with all the anti-Semetic media the numbers against Israel are still small.

If the media spent more time telling the truth about what Hamas was doing there would be more support for Israel.

Imagine in September of 1939 and December of 1941, the MSM explaining why Germany was justified in bombing Poland and Japan was justified in bombing Pearl harbor. Hint: Technically, the cases can be argued, though not very well.

We live in a world where even a child abuser is treated "with compassion" because, after all, it's because he was abused. And that thinking is just being carried forward to larger geopolitical issues. It really goes back to the old phrase, "There is no reason to hit a woman." And as Bill Burr points out, there are LOTS of reasons to hit a woman. You just don't do it.

Same thing here. We need to quit making excuses for bad actors and understand why someone shoots the guy trying to steal their car.

 

[FireDragon76]

That's because you don't hang with radical Muslims. They would murder you.

Most Muslims aren't particularly "radical", especially ones that live in the US.

 

[FireDragon76]

The original homelands of the people in the UNRWA refugee camps is in Israel.

My dad went to War College years ago in Alabama with a Jordanian air force officer that had a bag of dirt around his neck because his family was forced to flee their family's home in 1947.

"A land without people for a people without a land" was what the British establishment told themselves to make Zionism seem to be a righteous cause, but it was a fiction. Even many early Zionists like Israel Zangwill knew it was untrue.

 

[rjs330]

Non-sense.

We hold Israel and other allies to higher standard because of who they are - a democracy with with Western values!

No you are holding Israel to an impossible standard. And I've heard no call to hold Hamas to account or hold Hamas to a standard and instead all excuses as to how we can't. Meanwhile calling for Israel to be held to an impossible standard.

 

[rjs330]

Most Muslims aren't particularly "radical", especially ones that live in the US.

Meanwhile Muslims in Germany are calling for Sharia in Germany and the take over of Germany.

And we have Muslims in the USA going after Jews and calling for the extermination of Jews. We have 10000 and more protestors including Muslims in the US marching and chanting for the extermination of Jews. But I guess there are good people on both sides.