Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Pommer]

This might help...

The British government decided to endorse the establishment of a Jewish home in Palestine. After discussions within the cabinet and consultations with Jewish leaders, the decision was made public in a letter from British Foreign Secretary Lord Arthur James Balfour to Lord Walter Rothschild. The contents of this letter became known as the Balfour Declaration.

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There’s a piece of paper (or parchment) somewhere that was “legal” when it was drafted?
Stop the presses!
What has this to do with Israel killing 4000+ children?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Why always try to deflect and find excuses and somewhere else to point the finger? There has been a lot of war crimes through history. What is happening to Gaza ranks up there near the top as far as I am concerned in heartlessness. The Germans at least had modern weapons and planes to fight back. Now the minorities they killed and put in camps did not. That is where the comparison really lies.
Add to that the myth that Israel is supposed to be somehow connected to God because of past history (when they were believers) and the monstrous atrocities become even more stark.
Then pile on the filthy attempted justification by famous Christian pastors and denominations and the whole thing stinks to the highest heavens.

I was genuinely interested in your definition of terrorism.

the minorities they killed and put in camps did not.

Who put who in camps?

 

[Pommer]

What is terrorism ???

When Britain bombed Dresden - was that terrorism?

Dresden wasn’t a manufacturing hub, it played no significant role in Germany’s war effort, but the winners write the history.

 

[Carl Emerson]

There’s a piece of paper (or parchment) somewhere that was “legal” when it was drafted?
Stop the presses!
What has this to do with Israel killing 4000+ children?

I hoped the discussion might include the fact that Arabs were given Jordan when the Jews were given Israel.

As for the incessant reference to killing 4000 children - I can only assume that this constant unsubstantiated claim is a desperate attempt to blame Israel for a situation fully created by the activities of Hamas.

I see no evidence of Israel treating innocent civilians like Hamas did when they invaded Israel - the way they treated innocent women was barbaric beyond belief.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Dresden wasn’t a manufacturing hub, it played no significant role in Germany’s war effort, but the winners write the history.

You didn't define terrorism. It seems to be a label used to discredit whoever is out of favour.

 

[truthpls]

I was genuinely interested in your definition of terrorism.

Ok, when thousands of children are blown up that is terrorism

Who put who in camps?

The Germans put minorities in camps. Then they killed them. Sound familiar?

 

[Vanellus]

"Elections have consequences." - Barack Hussein Obama

One's own actions have consequences and this principle applies to the IDF and their political masters and Hamas
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

P.S. The words of Obama do not necessarily conform to the words of God.

 

[Vanellus]

I hoped the discussion might include the fact that Arabs were given Jordan when the Jews were given Israel.

As for the incessant reference to killing 4000 children - I can only assume that this constant unsubstantiated claim is a desperate attempt to blame Israel for a situation fully created by the activities of Hamas.

I see no evidence of Israel treating innocent civilians like Hamas did when they invaded Israel - the way they treated innocent women was barbaric beyond belief.

Yes it's so much braver and nicer killing many thousands of people with indiscriminate bombing from the safe distance of a great height when the opponents have no air force, than killing c1200 people at close quarters some of which may fight back. Quibbling about the initial 1400 figure would have been an inappropriate distraction and so is your quibbling above given that it has already been well explained that the figures the Gaza health authority provide have been shown to be accurate in the past and the methods used to calculate the figures have been explained in this thread. This is a distraction from the main message: Israel has embarked on a campaign of mass murder, destruction and ethnic cleansing.

Killing from 20,000 feet is no less immoral than killing at close quarters. Distance and technology does not confer morality. Guterres had stated a simple fact, acknowledged by us and many thousands of Jews around the world: “The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of occupation, their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution have been vanishing.”

from Jews against the war on Gaza

 

[Robban]

Ok, when thousands of children are blown up that is terrorism

The Germans put minorities in camps. Then they killed them. Sound familiar?

.

 

[Vanellus]

Ok, when thousands of children are blown up that is terrorism

The Germans put minorities in camps. Then they killed them. Sound familiar?

Ah but Israel decided to put them all in one big camp.

Israel has a plan to isolate the Gaza Strip and deprive it of its roots, it’s turned it in to a concentration camp, and it has nothing to do with Hamas, Israeli journalist Amira Hass wrote in Haaretz [in 2019]
“The Gaza Strip today is a concentration camp,” she wrote.

“In the Gaza Strip, which is closed off like a confined and separated camp, live some two million people in one of the most densely populated places in the world. About 70 per cent of them are the descendants of refugees expelled from their homes. Absent freedom of movement condemned them to a life of unemployment, dreariness, poverty, disease, depression, contaminated water and soil, and dependence on ever-dwindling charity. And that is even without the military bombings and incursions.”

“The concentration camp that is Gaza has existed under ever harsher conditions for almost three decades… Before Hamas took charge.”

“Israel has a political goal in mind in turning Gaza into a giant concentration camp: Cutting it and its inhabitants off from the rest of the Palestinians so that it will become a separate entity, deprived of history, roots and belonging.”

Israel writer: Gaza is a concentration camp

 

[Carl Emerson]

Ok, when thousands of children are blown up that is terrorism

The Germans put minorities in camps. Then they killed them. Sound familiar?

1. Like all of Egypts first born... not really a valid definition.

2. Not even close... But what Hamas did to women is unprecedented

I challenge you to watch this video detailing what Hamas did to hundreds of innocent civilian women... including US citizens.

Israeli police say extreme sexual violence, rape by Hamas terrorists was systematic

While no victims of sex crimes by Hamas Oct. 7 have come forward, police say they have documented multiple cases and are investigating brutal crimes against women.

www.foxnews.com

 

[Carl Emerson]

Ah but Israel decided to put them all in one big camp.

Such an analogy is outrageous, antisemitic and deliberately provocative.

The fact that the article was printed at all, just goes to show how freedom of speech is upheld in the democracy of Israel.

If Gaza is one of the most densely populated places in the world, how come the IDF which I am told is one of the best equipped and ruthless military forces in the world, only managed to kill after 7 weeks in 2014 (Operation Protective Edge) 2,310 people (and that is a figure Hamas quoted)
Yet ISIS using just knives and AK47's could murder 4 times that figure in a week (And they did it often)
Either somebody is telling porkies about Gaza or the IDF are useless at their job.

The truth is Israel bends over backwards to operate against Hamas with pin point accuracy and strives to avoid collateral damage to innocent lives.

Think about it - Hamas invades Israel with a small band and kills 1200 in one day with inferior weaponry.
The Gaza war has run 47 days.
If Israel was intent on just killing civillians the death toll would be way more than 60,000 by now.

 

[o_mlly]

See the post directly above this one. It might explain the two aspects of any argument for a discontinuation of the fighting. Yes, of course there is an emotional aspect.

If our feelings were the end-all in governing our acts then Israel would be fully justified in prosecuting this war, even being vicious in doing so. But our emotions are not the end-all. Our intellect must judge whether our feelings move us to do good or to do evil.

But there are also cold hard practical reasons why there needs to be a rethink by Israel.

Isarel's response must be a reasonably measured response. The Israel "rethink" must always include an estimate of how many more Israeli innocents will die as well as innocent Palestinians. Reasonable men may disagree as to those estimates. However, the IDF's primary responsibility is to the Israeli citizens just as your responsibility is first to your own family, and others second.

When some commit the most viciously evil and immoral acts against others and, when the just retaliation begins, then cry, "We have rules!" are correct but demonstrate the height of at least hypocrisy and more likely the depth of their depravity.

 

[JosephZ]

If Gaza is one of the most densely populated places in the world, how come the IDF which I am told is one of the best equipped and ruthless military forces in the world, only managed to kill after 7 weeks in 2014 (Operation Protective Edge) 2,310 people (and that is a figure Hamas quoted)
Yet ISIS using just knives and AK47's could murder 4 times that figure in a week (And they did it often)

While ISIS is ruthless and indiscriminate when it comes to killing civilians, there has never been a single week where they have killed 2300 people—much less four times that many. The deadliest years for ISIS were 2013–2016. There were roughly 21,400 people killed by ISIS during that three-year period. Explosives were the primary weapon used by ISIS (around 80%), followed by firearms (around 16%).

The Gaza war has run 47 days.
If Israel was intent on just killing civillians the death toll would be way more than 60,000 by now.

14,532 dead, 35,000 wounded, and 7,000 missing and presumed dead within seven weeks is unacceptable. Period.

 

[essentialsaltes]

When Britain bombed Dresden - was that terrorism?

Critics of the bombing have asserted that Dresden was a cultural landmark with little strategic significance, and that the attacks were indiscriminate area bombing and were not proportionate to military gains.[10][11][12]Some have claimed that the raid constituted a war crime.

 

[JosephZ]

The first group of Israeli hostages are now in the hands of the staff of the International Committee for Red Cross and are in ambulances on the way from Khan Younis in southern Gaza to the Rafah crossing into Israel, an Israeli official says.

The families of the hostages are on their way to hospitals in Israel, where they are to be reunited later.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/13-hostages-from-gaza-now-with-red-cross-making-way-toward-israel/

 

[essentialsaltes]

Israeli hard-line minister accuses top newspaper of ‘propaganda’​

[Communications Minister Shlomo Karhi] moved to penalize the country’s top liberal Hebrew daily Haaretz, accusing it of spreading “defeatist and false propaganda” and “subversion” during wartime.

[He] urged the cabinet to halt all commercial payments to the paper

In a statement, Israel’s journalists’ union said that “the communications minister has lost his way” and was making a “populistic proposal devoid of any feasibility or logic.”

 

[JosephZ]

After nearly seven weeks in captivity, 24 hostages seized by Hamas in its deadly Oct. 7 attack on Israel have been freed. The captives were released late Friday afternoon at Egypt's Rafah crossing, Qatar's foreign ministry confirmed.

"Those released include 13 Israeli citizens, some of whom are dual citizens, in addition to 10 Thai citizens and a Filipino citizen," the official spokesman for Qatar's foreign ministry posted on X, formerly known as Twitter.

"A number of Thai citizens have also been released outside the framework of the truce agreement," he said.

The deal for the release of hostages in exchange for freedom for some Palestinian prisoners is part of a four-day cease-fire arrangement worked out over several weeks in negotiations mediated by Qatar, Egypt and the United States.

The temporary truce went into effect at 7 a.m. local time (midnight ET) on Friday.

Subsequent hostages-for-prisoners exchanges are set to occur in batches over in the coming days of the truce, which Israel says could be extended up to 10 days.

https://www.npr.org/2023/11/24/1215049675/temporary-truce-begins-in-gaza-reports-say-with-first-hostages-set-for-release

 

[truthpls]

Ah but Israel decided to put them all in one big camp.

Exactly. I suppose we might consider the west bank another though

Israel writer: Gaza is a concentration camp

 

[truthpls]

Israeli hard-line minister accuses top newspaper of ‘propaganda’​

[Communications Minister Shlomo Karhi] moved to penalize the country’s top liberal Hebrew daily Haaretz, accusing it of spreading “defeatist and false propaganda” and “subversion” during wartime.

[He] urged the cabinet to halt all commercial payments to the paper

In a statement, Israel’s journalists’ union said that “the communications minister has lost his way” and was making a “populistic proposal devoid of any feasibility or logic.”

Tyranny seems to attack free speech