Israel-Hamas Thread II

[truthpls]

As long as the Arabs in Palestine accept terrorism there will be no peace.

Yes there will be peace no matter what any party rejects or accepts there. The Prince of Peace is returning. You should not point a finger at Palestine either, because with all Israel has done, there are four fingers pointing back at you. In the time before Jesus returns, Israel will go through the wrath of God (with the rest of the world) and that will result in a majority of the population there DYING. So judgment is coming and fast. Only the survivors who accept Jesus in the end will be given that land. Like the rest of mankind, there is no other way! Any and all that try to sneak in another way are thieves and robbers. (and could never succeed)
There are believers in Palestine and there will be a lot more. So those folks will also be taken care of wonderfully. (unlike the way Israel treats them today)

 

[ralliann]

Yes there will be peace no matter what any party rejects or accepts there. The Prince of Peace is returning. You should not point a finger at Palestine either, because with all Israel has done, there are four fingers pointing back at you. In the time before Jesus returns, Israel will go through the wrath of God (with the rest of the world) and that will result in a majority of the population there DYING. So judgment is coming and fast. Only the survivors who accept Jesus in the end will be given that land. Like the rest of mankind, there is no other way! Any and all that try to sneak in another way are thieves and robbers. (and could never succeed)
There are believers in Palestine and there will be a lot more. So those folks will also be taken care of wonderfully. (unlike the way Israel treats them today)

So all Islam shall be saved heh?

 

[truthpls]

So all Islam shall be saved heh?

All who receive Jesus, just like the Jews who receive Him will be saved. That is the name of the game and what it is all about. Meanwhile the Lord loves people and wants them to have the gospel so they can hear and be saved. He is for the fatherless (like the children who lost parents by Israeli bombs) and the widows and the poor etc. Not for those who reject Jesus and kill their neighbours. Those sort of folks will face the wrath of God.

 

[ralliann]

All who receive Jesus, just like the Jews who receive Him will be saved. That is the name of the game and what it is all about. Meanwhile the Lord loves people and wants them to have the gospel so they can hear and be saved. He is for the fatherless (like the children who lost parents by Israeli bombs) and the widows and the poor etc. Not for those who reject Jesus and kill their neighbours. Those sort of folks will face the wrath of God.

In the mean time let them terrorize Israel? Nah

 

[Philip_B]

In the mean time let them terrorize Israel? Nah

I have to ask if you have skin in the game. Your absolutes in this discussion thread excuse Israel and the IDF of all wrongs and if there is any likelihood they did wrong then it is the Palestinians' fault. You appear to do this to an extent that is beyond comprehension and reason. Your seeming resolution is the elimination of a people, the Palestinian People, who you don't recognise and simply see in the generic Arab basket. You seem to have zero respect for any other consideration, and like a former President of your nation, just keep taking regardless of the facts and logic-based argument, seemingly because while you are still taking then your facts must be better than the other facts. I wonder what it is that precludes you from seeing the other side of the argument.

 

[ralliann]

I have to ask if you have skin in the game. Your absolutes in this discussion thread excuse Israel and the IDF of all wrongs

Untrue...

and if there is any likelihood they did wrong then it is the Palestinians' fault.

untrue

You appear to do this to an extent that is beyond comprehension and reason.

The above characterizations are untrue, over the top.

Your seeming resolution is the elimination of a people, the Palestinian People, who you don't recognise and simply see in the generic Arab basket.

Again untrue...They are Arabs. To claim genocide is deceptive. Nobody is wanting to kill Arabs. Their own Arab people won't take them in.

You seem to have zero respect for any other consideration, and like a former President of your nation, just keep taking regardless of the facts and logic-based argument, seemingly because while you are still taking then your facts must be better than the other facts. I wonder what it is that precludes you from seeing the other side of the argument.

Facts and logic?

 

[truthpls]

In the mean time let them terrorize Israel? Nah

Before God's hammer falls, I guess it doesn't matter so much what Israel does at this point. It seems their cup is pretty full. The days of blowing up kids and women and starving people and not allowing aid etc cannot go on forever.

 

[Semper-Fi]

Before God's hammer falls, I guess it doesn't matter so much what Israel does at this point. It seems their cup is pretty full. The days of blowing up kids and women and starving people and not allowing aid etc cannot go on forever.

These are ridiculous and demonstrably false accusations.

International Court of Justice requested an arrest warrant for Israeli
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, accusing him of ....

"deliberately targeting civilians in conflict” ?

Israel minimizes civilian casualties more than anyone in history - expert

Israel minimizes civilian casualties more than anyone in history - expert

While some have argued Israel could have waited longer, used different munitions, or not conducted the war at all, these all fail to acknowledge the context of the hostages, rockets, and tunnels.

www.jpost.com

“In fact, by my analysis, Israel has implemented more precautions to prevent civilian harm than any military in history—above and beyond what international law requires and more than the [United States] did in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan”

The US State Department Is Amplifying the Smear Campaign Against Israel

The US State Department is amplifying the smear campaign against Israel

Israel's fight to save Gaza and itself from Hamas draws the ire of establishment experts and anti-Israel activists—which says a lot about its critics.

www.newsweek.com

“causing extermination" ?

United Nations cuts estimate for deaths of women and children in Gaza in half

United Nations cuts estimate for deaths of women and children in Gaza in half

The United Nations reduced by half the number of women and children estimated to have been killed during Israel's war in Gaza.

www.usatoday.com

UN Halves Its Estimate of Women and Children Killed in Gaza

Between May 6 and May 8, the UN cut in half its estimates of the number of women and children killed in Gaza. The estimates were based on Hamas numbers and are a reminder that all fatality estimates …

www.cfr.org

The United Nations quietly cuts estimate so people would not notice there lies.
New figure Israel is estimated to have killed one civilian for every combatant.

This is a low civilian casualty rate in an urban warfare, against an enemy
that targets civilians, captures civilian hostages, and tries to get its own
civilians killed to make Israel look evil in the propaganda war.

In Iraq, American-led forces killed nearly 3.5 civilians for every combatant
killed. Yet Biden said Israel “has not done enough” to protect civilians.

"Denial of humanitarian relief supplies" ?
"Causing starvation as a method of war" ?

Accusing Israel of imposing a “total siege” is another total lie. Israel
has allowed in more than 18,000 trucks and 400,000 tons of food.

Meanwhile, Egypt has not allowed aid in but has not been indicted by this court.
In the meantime, Hamas is estimated to have made half a billion dollars by
stealing supplies ear marked for needy and selling them on the black market.

Hamas has profited from Gaza aid ‘to tune of half a billion dollars’

Claim from veteran analyst is supported by Israel’s domestic security agency

www.thejc.com

Don't worry you will get your wish, the bible says this is coming.

The fall of half of Jerusalem triggers a violent and massive
chain reaction that leads to Christ’s Second Coming.

 

[truthpls]

These are ridiculous and demonstrably false accusations.

I disagree as does most of the planet

International Court of Justice requested an arrest warrant for Israeli
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, accusing him of ....

"deliberately targeting civilians in conflict” ?

When 35,000 plus are killed, mostly women and children, of course it is deliberate.

Israel minimizes civilian casualties more than anyone in history - expert

Israel minimizes civilian casualties more than anyone in history - expert

While some have argued Israel could have waited longer, used different munitions, or not conducted the war at all, these all fail to acknowledge the context of the hostages, rockets, and tunnels.

www.jpost.com

Baloney. Quoting Jerualem Post? You might as well quote Mein Kamph

“In fact, by my analysis, Israel has implemented more precautions to prevent civilian harm than any military in history—above and beyond what international law requires and more than the [United States] did in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan”

And in my analysis whoever said that is either bought off, from Israel, or out of their gourd or lying.

The US State Department Is Amplifying the Smear Campaign Against Israel

Yet the USA enabled and abetted the genocide. Elevating some shrill hypocritical doublespeak, where they speak out of both sides of their mouth to get votes means nothing. Actions count.

“causing extermination" ?

Trying to

The United Nations quietly cuts estimate so people would not notice there lies.
New figure Israel is estimated to have killed one civilian for every combatant.

When you bomb an apartment and estimate it was mostly combatants, you do not fool as many as you thought.

This is a low civilian casualty rate in an urban warfare, against an enemy
that targets civilians, captures civilian hostages, and tries to get its own
civilians killed to make Israel look evil in the propaganda war.

There are tens of thousands starved and killed actually. Your wish to demonize them and label them combatants is worthless.

In Iraq, American-led forces killed nearly 3.5 civilians for every combatant
killed. Yet Biden said Israel “has not done enough” to protect civilians.

No wonder they support Israel then!

"Denial of humanitarian relief supplies" ?

Yes

"Causing starvation as a method of war" ?

Yes

Accusing Israel of imposing a “total siege” is another total lie. Israel
has allowed in more than 18,000 trucks and 400,000 tons of food.

They also shot aid workers, stopped most aid and etc.

Meanwhile, Egypt has not allowed aid in but has not been indicted by this court.

Other nations have guilt as well, that does not justify the terrorism and mass murder of Israel.

In the meantime, Hamas is estimated to have made half a billion dollars by
stealing supplies ear marked for needy and selling them on the black market.

IDF news? Ha

Don't worry you will get your wish, the bible says this is coming.

My wish is that they repent today actually. Like God I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

The fall of half of Jerusalem triggers a violent and massive
chain reaction that leads to Christ’s Second Coming.

Jerusalem does have trouble but His return does not depend on that.

 

[JosephZ]

Israel minimizes civilian casualties more than anyone in history - expert

“In fact, by my analysis, Israel has implemented more precautions to prevent civilian harm than any military in history—above and beyond what international law requires and more than the [United States] did in its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan”

While wartime death tolls will never be exact, experts say that even a conservative reading of the casualty figures reported from Gaza shows that the pace of death during Israel’s campaign has few precedents in this century.

People are being killed in Gaza more quickly than in even the deadliest moments of U.S.-led attacks in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan, which were themselves widely criticized by human rights groups.

Precise comparisons of war dead are impossible, but conflict-casualty experts have been taken aback at just how many people have been reported killed in Gaza — most of them women and children — and how rapidly.

More women and children have been reported killed in Gaza in less than two months than the roughly 7,700 civilians documented as killed by U.S. forces and their international allies in the entire first year of the invasion of Iraq in 2003...

...the number of women and children reported killed in Gaza since the Israeli campaign began last month has already started to approach the roughly 12,400 civilians documented to have been killed by the United States and its allies in Afghanistan during nearly 20 years of war.

In the nine-month battle of Mosul, which Israeli officials have cited as a comparison, an estimated total of 9,000 to 11,000 civilians were killed by all sides in the conflict, including many thousands killed by the Islamic State.

In the first two weeks of the war, roughly 90 percent of the munitions Israel dropped in Gaza were satellite-guided bombs weighing 1,000 to 2,000 pounds.

U.S. military officials often believed that the most common American aerial bomb — a 500-pound weapon — was far too large for most targets when battling the Islamic State in urban areas like Mosul, Iraq, and Raqqa, Syria.

More children have been killed in Gaza since the Israeli assault began than in the world’s major conflict zones combined — across two dozen countries — during all of last year, even with the war in Ukraine,

Gaza Civilians, Under Israeli Barrage, Are Being Killed at Historic Pace

Even a conservative assessment of the reported Gaza casualty figures shows that the rate of death during Israel’s assault has few precedents in this century, experts say.

www.nytimes.com

Israel Created 'Kill Zones' in Gaza. Anyone Who Crosses Into Them Is Shot

The Israeli army says 9,000 terrorists have been killed since the Gaza war began. Defense officials and soldiers, however, tell Haaretz that these are often civilians whose only crime was to cross an invisible line drawn by the IDF

It's quite possible that Palestinians who never held a gun in their lives were elevated to the rank of "terrorist" posthumously, at least by the IDF.

"In practice, a terrorist is anyone the IDF has killed in the areas in which its forces operate," says a reserve officer who has served in Gaza.

"It's astonishing to hear the reports after every operation, regarding how many terrorists were killed," he says, explaining: "You don't need to be a genius to realize that you don't have hundreds or dozens of armed men running through the streets of Khan Yunis or Jabaliya, fighting the IDF."

So, what do the battles in Gaza really look like? According to a reserve officer who was there, "usually there is a terrorist, maybe two or three, hiding inside a building.

One of the roles of this officer was to inform senior echelons of the number of terrorists killed in the area he and his men were fighting in. "This wasn't an official debriefing where they want you to produce all the bodies," he explains. "They ask you how many and I give a number based on what we see and understand on the ground, and we move on."

He emphasizes that "it's not that we invent bodies, but no one can determine with certainty who is a terrorist and who was hit after entering the combat zone of an IDF force." Indeed, a number of reservists and other soldiers who were in Gaza in recent months point to the ease with which a Palestinian is included in a specific category after his death. It seems that the question is not what he did but where he was killed.

The combat zone is a key term. This is an area in which a force sets itself up, usually in an abandoned house, with the area surrounding it becoming a closed military area, but with no clear marking as such. Another term for such areas is "kill zones."

"As soon as people enter it, mainly adult males, orders are to shoot and kill, even if that person is unarmed," says the reserve officer

Israel created 'kill zones' in Gaza. Anyone who crosses into them is shot

***

www.haaretz.com

United Nations cuts estimate for deaths of women and children in Gaza in half

The United Nations quietly cuts estimate so people would not notice there lies.
New figure Israel is estimated to have killed one civilian for every combatant.

The numbers haven't changed as I explained in this post:

The numbers haven't actually changed. Before they were just reporting unverified numbers, the lower numbers are those that are verified with names attached. We won’t know the actual number and demographics of those killed in Gaza until they are able to count and verify the identity of all the dead bodies. Once that is done, we will likely find the numbers very close to what the Gaza Health Ministry reports, as has been the case in past conflicts.

The UN changed a graphic from 34,735 reported fatalities, of which 9,500 were women and 14,500 were children, to 34,844 reported fatalities, of which 24,686 have been positively identified, with 4,959 being women and 7,797 being children. Since women and especially children in Gaza are less likely to have birth certificates or some type of government ID, this would explain why they are underrepresented in the verified count of fatalities for now.

 

[rjs330]

Peace and security for both Israel and the Palestinian people depend on a sovereign Palestinian state being created. Without one, Hamas and other terrorist groups will continue to control Gaza, and perhaps even the West Bank at some point, and the conflict will continue indefinitely.

Welll then stop trying to destroy Israel and build one.

 

[JosephZ]

Welll then stop trying to destroy Israel and build one.

Israel has never given the Palestinians an opportunity to have a sovereign state. How can they build one if they Israel doesn't allow them to have one?

 

[JosephZ]

Rockets Fired From Rafah at Greater Tel Aviv Area for First Time in Months

Numerous rockets were fired from the Gaza Strip towards central Israel, the first rocket barrage directed at the area in months.

A massive barrage of rockets targeted Tel Aviv and central Israel for the first time in months. The rockets were fired from Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip.

The IDF confirmed on Sunday that eight projectiles were identified crossing the Rafah area into Israeli territory. A number of the projectiles were intercepted by the IDF Aerial Defense Array, the IDF announced.

As a result of the rocket fire, loud booms were heard across Tel Aviv, Petah Tikva, Herzliya, and Ramat Hasharon.

Rescue forces are looking into reports of a rocket landing in the Tel Aviv area. Both MDA and Israel Police said there have not been any reported injuries yet.

Shrapnel hit a parked car in Herzliya. MDA also announced that one person was slightly injured by shrapnel in Herzliya, Israeli media reported.

 

[Ted-01]

Later on, through much outside pressure, they allowed limited humanitarian aid to come into Gaza through Rafah and other points.

Given that for much of that period, Hamas represented the closest thing they had to a Government, that is hardly surprising, indeed it would be far more surprising if they did not.

UNRWA is the major player here, and there have been many questions raised about this, and I think many of the sponsors, put a hold on funding following claims made by Israel. I am not sure how they played out, however I suspect the US has not resumed funding, though I think Australia has.

The complexity in understanding the very solid support of the US for Israel, may in part rely on where you are in the election cycle. War is good for America economically, and support for Israel makes good financial sense for the Republican cause. When President Trump decided to move the American Embassy to Jerusalem, it was a move that incensed many and undid many of the agreements that have managed to reduce tension. It was a move that was predicated on US electoral response, and despite everything good he did in the Middle East (and for that, he should have had a Nobel Peace Prize) much of it and more was undone by this one act.

History to be useful must not only answer the questions of Who? What? When? and Where? - it must also answer the question Why? Experience tells us that is sometimes (though not always) found on the follow the money trail.

All of this is important information for all of to keep in mind when thinking/talking about what's going on in Israel and Gaza. There has always been the element of people making profit in war. Being an American, who was born, raised, and educated here, and have only vacationed off CONUS; I understand that we have our own perspective about the world. But that's also true of peoples of other nationalities. But it seems to me that "America" sells war... we import it wherever we feel that we need to get involved in for our own national security and stability around the world. I think that it was Pres. Eisenhower that said, when he left office, something about Americans needing beware of defense contractors as they seemed to him to overly ambitious and too involved setting policy... interfering in the government.
But again, we are not the only ones doing this. Even the UN has it's bias and agenda.

More importantly, I think that we get distracted in our thinking about a particular war/conflict/whatever, when bring all this into the discussion. All those things are very important and not only need to be discussed, but fixed.

On the point of being "pro-Palestinian" I ran across an article that said:

"Alongside this support for Palestine, however, many within the Arab public subconsciously assume anti-Israeli, anti-Zionist, and antisemitic sentiments. Oftentimes, being pro-Palestinian becomes enmeshed with these other destructive beliefs. Many Arabs, therefore, view them as two sides of the same coin – to be pro-Palestine is to actively wish harm upon Israelis and Jewish people. Discourse around Palestine and Israel in the streets devolves quickly to extremist anti-Zionist and, yes, unfortunately, antisemitic rhetoric."
How Arab intellectuals are failing their publics - it's an interesting read, if you get time. Also, that's not the whole thrust of the article, it's pretty broad-minded, IMHO.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

I support Israel and recognize Hamas' Islamic Jihad propaganda for what it is.

It's hard to know how much to trust terrorists who use their own people as human shields to stay in power and leverage their own people's deaths for propaganda purposes.

 

[rjs330]

Israel has never given the Palestinians an opportunity to have a sovereign state. How can they build one if they Israel doesn't allow them to have one?

Not true. They've been given opportunities and refused every time.

How Palestine rejected offer to have its own state 5 times in the past - Law and Society Magazine.

A Short History of Palestinian Rejectionism

https://www.wsj.com/articles/palest...ution-hamas-mahmoud-abbas-refugee-11666972703

Palestine Has Always Rejected A Two-State Solution

Besides I thought it was a State already. Aren't there countries that already recognize it as a state? We've been told that the UN recocognuzes it and it's a non-voting member.

So how can Israel have never given them sovereignty when they are already recognized as a state?

Or how can Israel have never given them an opportunity when the Arabs reused every time?

So which is it? Are they or aren't they a state?

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Israel has never given the Palestinians an opportunity to have a sovereign state. How can they build one if they Israel doesn't allow them to have one?

Not true. They've been given opportunities and refused every time.

How Palestine rejected offer to have its own state 5 times in the past - Law and Society Magazine.

It's amazing how the propaganda conflicts with what is true. Not only has Palestine been offered their own State, they've been offered it 5 times. So much for the glory of a 2 State solution!

The reason the 2 State solution will never work is Palestine refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

 

[JosephZ]

Not true. They've been given opportunities and refused every time.

How Palestine rejected offer to have its own state 5 times in the past - Law and Society Magazine.

A Short History of Palestinian Rejectionism

https://www.wsj.com/articles/palest...ution-hamas-mahmoud-abbas-refugee-11666972703

Palestine Has Always Rejected A Two-State Solution

None of those offers gave the Palestinians a fully independent, sovereign state.

It's amazing how the propaganda conflicts with what is true. Not only has Palestine been offered their own State, they've been offered it 5 times. So much for the glory of a 2 State solution!

It seems you have been misled into believing that Palestine has been offered a soverign state in the past. Every offer to the Palestinians has included restrictions on their resources, airspace, borders, movements. and self defense.

The Camp David and Taba summits provided the most generous offers to the Palestinians, yet there would be no recognition of statehood; it wouldn't allow the Palestinians to have a military, and they wouldn’t have control over their airspace. Israeli aircraft would be able to patrol and conduct surveillance of the Palestinian territories at any time for any reason without having to consult with Palestinian authorities. Palestinians also wouldn't have a guarantee of freedom of movement from north to south in the West Bank and between the West Bank and Gaza. Israel would also have control of the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the third-holiest site in Islam, which had once been under Palestinian control. Does that sound reasonable to you? If you were negotiating peace between the US and one of its adversaries and it proposed similar terms, would you accept them?

The reason the 2 State solution will never work is Palestine refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to exist.

The Palestinians have recognized Israel's right to exist.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Besides I thought it was a State already. Aren't there countries that already recognize it as a state? We've been told that the UN recocognuzes it and it's a non-voting member.

The UN also recognizes that Israel illegally occupies that territory and controls its borders.

So which is it? Are they or aren't they a state?

You're just being disingenuous.

 

[rjs330]

He emphasizes that "it's not that we invent bodies, but no one can determine with certainty who is a terrorist and who was hit after entering the combat zone of an IDF force." Indeed, a number of reservists and other soldiers who were in Gaza in recent months point to the ease with which a Palestinian is included in a specific category after his death. It seems that the question is not what he did but where he was killed.

The combat zone is a key term. This is an area in which a force sets itself up, usually in an abandoned house, with the area surrounding it becoming a closed military area, but with no clear marking as such. Another term for such areas is "kill zones."

"As soon as people enter it, mainly adult males, orders are to shoot and kill, even if that person is unarmed," says the reserve officer

This makes perfect sense when fighting terrorists who look like civilians. Youvhave to cordon off areas where the terrorist are fighting from. And every adult male in that area should be considered one. Because they all look alike. A terrorist or one of thier supporters could easily move around and escape if you don't. That's why terrorist use ambulances or hospitals. They will walk around without a gun when it gets too hot for them in hopes of escape. That's why these evil men must be taken down.

What about the good people you ask. Good people should leave and go help the Israelis find the terrorists. Hamas will put anyone and everyone in danger. Use anything and any onec including suicide bombers who look unarmed.