Israel-Hamas Thread II

[rjs330]

Genesis 17:8
And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God.’

View attachment 348418

The children of Shem and the descendents are the Semitic peoples.

The Promised Land - Canaan - relies on Genesis 17:1. Whilst I think many of us have been schooled to believe that the promise is simply to Isaac, and then the odd story that follows by which Esau's birthright came into the posession of Jacob, look at it with a cooler mind I don't see how you want to limit God's words att his stage. There is a strong tradition in the ancient people of offering shelter and hospitality to the stranger and the foreigner. The Book of Ruth and the account of Jonah, are a couple of points where we see the interest and concern of God as being broader and more catholic than a simply narrow tribal God.

Yet the promise WAS limited. Isaac then Jacob. Yes that was God's promise. He is entitled to do what ge wants. He's God.

 

[rjs330]

The Palestinian Authority.

It claims the Israeli-Occupied Territories of the West Bank and Gaza. But the Israeli Occupation prevents them from having any real jurisdiction over that area. This is why there is a need for a two-state solution, including the drawing of borders agreed to by both sides. The most practical solutions seem to involve "pre-1967 borders with land swaps".

The Wikipedia article is quite extensive.

The fact that people are all demanding a two state solution and the talks gave all failed and that Gaza was governed by Hamas is all evidence that there isn't a real Palestinian State. It's an area ruled by Terrorist organizations that have taken over the area. Terrorist organizations ruling over a people that have lived nothing but terrorist lives.

They claim that even Israel is theirs. Israel had thier borders until the Palestinians and other Arabs decided to build up for an attack on Israel and Palestine never stopped.

Wikipedia is not a legitimate expert source on this matter. We all know Palestine isn't really a state. They are nothing more than a terrorist people controlled by other terrorists.

There us a debate on whether it's a state or not.

Is Palestine considered a state? – DW – 11/06/2023

Is Palestine a State?

Palestine: A state without full international recognition or absolute control of its territory

The ambition for self-determination faces the obstacle of the impossibility of exercising total sovereignty in Gaza and the West Bank

english.elpais.com

 

[Malleeboy]

I think it is probably best to call Palestine a failed state which has considerable recognition but not universal recognition.
It will not get entry into the UN General Assembly without approval by all the veto members of the security council.
Whilst the PA is the nominal government, in practice Hamas has the best claim to democratic mandate, popular support and effective control of Gaza, and certainly more likely to gain full control of the West Bank than the PA.
Whilst Hamas remains the most likely government of Palestine, it will not be granted full recognition or UN General Council body membership.

(One could argue that for example that Somaliland has IMHO a better case for statehood than Palestine, except for geo-political reason it will not get recognized. (Eg Somaliland has a democratic government, that has full control of a defined territory, currency etc.)

 

[essentialsaltes]

The fact that people are all demanding a two state solution and the talks gave all failed and that Gaza was governed by Hamas is all evidence that there isn't a real Palestinian State.

Right, as your later link shows, it doesn't have control over its territory, since it's controlled by an occupying power. But this government-in-exile has some recognition with the UN and some countries. So when Norway recognizes "The State of Palestine" it means they have some diplomatic ties with the actual people who represent the nonmember state at the UN.

So it does no good to say "there's no such thing as Palestine". Norway did not recognize imaginary people. It recognized actual human beings who represent the interests of Palestinians and are formally known as "the State of Palestine".

 

[ralliann]

The Palestinian Authority.

It claims the Israeli-Occupied Territories of the West Bank and Gaza. But the Israeli Occupation prevents them from having any real jurisdiction over that area. This is why there is a need for a two-state solution, including the drawing of borders agreed to by both sides. The most practical solutions seem to involve "pre-1967 borders with land swaps".

The Wikipedia article is quite extensive.

So does Israel

It is Israel they need rescuing from. I suspect God has the cavalry coming soon

Ah, so you think God is going to rescue Hamas from Evil Israel.

 

[ralliann]

I just showed you that the US supports a two state solution. wing2000 is correct that this has been the continuous policy of the US for decades.

Not at this time it does not support a Palestinian state.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Not at this time it does not support a Palestinian state.

Possibly you're splitting hairs, but the US definitely supports the creation of a Palestinian state.

 

[essentialsaltes]

UN's top court orders Israel to allow unhindered aid into Gaza "without delay"​

The International Court of Justice (ICJ) has ordered Israel to enable the unhindered flow of aid into Gaza "without delay" to avert a famine, as the number of Palestinians starving to death rises inside the besieged enclave.
In a unanimous decision, the world court issued additional provisional measures against Israel, in the ongoing genocide case brought by South Africa. The court compelled Israel to allow more aid into Gaza in light of famine “setting in."

ICJ orders Israel ‘to immediately halt’ Rafah offensive​

The International Court of Justice ordered Israel on Friday to “immediately halt” its offensive in Rafah, in a high-profile rebuke that adds to global pressure on Israel over its war Gaza. The court cited “exceptionally grave” developments for the “extremely vulnerable” population in Rafah, and said it was “not convinced that the evacuation efforts” Israel put in place for Palestinian civilians in Gaza are sufficient to “alleviate the immense risk.” Israel has previously described the case as “divorced from the facts.”

The order is part of a broader case brought by South Africa, accusing Israel of violating the Genocide Convention.

 

[ralliann]

Possibly you're splitting hairs, but the US definitely supports the creation of a Palestinian state.

I am not splitting hairs. Right now, as it currently is......with Hamas in power as an elected government in Gaza, the US does not support a Palestinian state. It is not splitting hairs to say, as of now, it is a terrorist government. To support that as a state, is to support a terrorist state, is not splitting hairs.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I am not splitting hairs. Right now, as it currently is......with Hamas in power as an elected government in Gaza, the US does not support a Palestinian state. It is not splitting hairs to say, as of now, it is a terrorist government. To support that as a state, is to support a terrorist state, is not splitting hairs.

OK, then you're just wrong. The US supports the creation of a Palestinian state, and is working with partners in the Palestinian Authority (not Hamas) with the ultimate goal of a two state solution. The goal is no different from that of the abortive Trump-Kushner Peace Plan: a free independent Palestine at peace with its neighbors.

 

[ralliann]

OK, then you're just wrong. The US supports the creation of a Palestinian state, and is working with partners in the Palestinian Authority (not Hamas) with the ultimate goal of a two state solution. The goal is no different from that of the abortive Trump-Kushner Peace Plan: a free independent Palestine at peace with its neighbors.

View attachment 348535

LOL, please... (NOT Hamas) is right there in your post.... So what was I wrong about?

 

[essentialsaltes]

LOL, please... (NOT Hamas) is right there in your post.... So what was I wrong about?

The US supports the creation of a Palestinian state.
The US does not support Hamas.

These statements are not contradictory. Both are true. You are wrong in denying the first one.

 

[ralliann]

The US supports the creation of a Palestinian state.
The US does not support Hamas.

Which is why Hamas must be defeated. The current war is to eliminate Hamas.

These statements are not contradictory. Both are true. You are wrong in denying the first one.

It is wrong to accept Palestine RIGHT NOW as a Palestinian state PERIOD...The US has not done so PERIOD.
It is not helpful to speak of Palestinian statehood at this point. It simply encourages Palestinian support of their elected TERRORIST government.

 

[JosephZ]

It is not helpful to speak of Palestinian statehood at this point. It simply encourages Palestinian support of their elected TERRORIST government.

Actually the opposite would take place. The failure to recognize a Palestinian state is one of the top reasons Hamas was able to come into power to begin with. Recognizing the state of Palestine by the international community, including the United States and Israel, will give the Palestinian people hope for a future and weaken Hamas's control in Gaza and it's ability to recruit. With a Palestinian state, Hamas would lose support, and fewer Palestinians would be willing to join them in their fight against Israel. It would be the beginning of the end of Hamas.

Peace and security for both Israel and the Palestinian people depend on a sovereign Palestinian state being created. Without one, Hamas and other terrorist groups will continue to control Gaza, and perhaps even the West Bank at some point, and the conflict will continue indefinitely.

 

[truthpls]

Ah, so you think God is going to rescue Hamas from Evil Israel.

Forget Hamas. Jesus loves the children of Gaza and the people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God, as we shall see. Now if Israel had offered billions as a reward to arrest Hamas people and somehow was able to go in and arrest them, well, that would be a better use of their prisons than the multitudes of young and innocent folks I hear they scooped up to put in there. What is strange is how they accuse the other side of having hostages and terrorism, seemingly blind to the greater evil they themselves do

 

[ralliann]

Actually the opposite would take place. The failure to recognize a Palestinian state is one of the top reasons Hamas was able to come into power to begin with. Recognizing the state of Palestine by the international community, including the United States and Israel, will give the Palestinian people hope for a future and weaken Hamas's control in Gaza and it's ability to recruit. With a Palestinian state, Hamas would lose support, and fewer Palestinians would be willing to join them in their fight against Israel. It would be the beginning of the end of Hamas.

Peace and security for both Israel and the Palestinian people depend on a sovereign Palestinian state being created. Without one, Hamas and other terrorist groups will continue to control Gaza, and perhaps even the West Bank at some point, and the conflict will continue indefinitely.

There will be no peace if terrorism is acceptable to Arabs in Palestine.

 

[ralliann]

Forget Hamas. Jesus loves the children of Gaza and the people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God, as we shall see. Now if Israel had offered billions as a reward to arrest Hamas people and somehow was able to go in and arrest them, well, that would be a better use of their prisons than the multitudes of young and innocent folks I hear they scooped up to put in there. What is strange is how they accuse the other side of having hostages and terrorism, seemingly blind to the greater evil they themselves do

As long as the Arabs in Palestine accept terrorism there will be no peace.

 

[JosephZ]

There will be no peace if terrorism is acceptable to Arabs in Palestine.

Terrorism becomes acceptable to people when they are oppressed and marginalized. Address those issues, and the support for terrorism will come to an end.

Hamas is a symptom of decades of injustices perpetrated by the Israeli government against the Palestinian people. It will achieve nothing in the long term to ask Hamas to surrender, so long as the underlying conditions that created it persist. The road towards peace starts with Israel. Until Israel ends its occupation of the Palestinian territories and allows Palestinians the right to self-determination through the creation of a Palestinian state, there will be no peace.

 

[ralliann]

Terrorism becomes acceptable to people when they are oppressed and marginalized.

Address those issues, and the support for terrorism will come to an end.

Address those issues, and the support for terrorism will come to an end.

Israel is addressing Arab Palestinian terror right now.

 

[truthpls]

As long as the Arabs in Palestine accept terrorism there will be no peace.

Yes there will be peace no matter what any party rejects or accepts there. The Prince of Peace is returning. You should not point a finger at Palestine either, because with all Israel has done, there are four fingers pointing back at you. In the time before Jesus returns, Israel will go through the wrath of God (with the rest of the world) and that will result in a majority of the population there DYING. So judgment is coming and fast. Only the survivors who accept Jesus in the end will be given that land. Like the rest of mankind, there is no other way! Any and all that try to sneak in another way are thieves and robbers. (and could never succeed)
There are believers in Palestine and there will be a lot more. So those folks will also be taken care of wonderfully. (unlike the way Israel treats them today)