Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Ana the Ist]

I am not defending terrorists,

You are when you compare them to the IDF.

 

[Philip_B]

This sounds reasonable to me, as do the other parts of your post that I snipped this from, but I need to ask...
Aren't we a little bit late in trying to understand the Hamas/Palestinian/Gazan issues?

They're a rather old institution/group... coming to power, officially in the early 2000's, and I think that trying to stop a war so we can catch up in order to gain understanding, seems a bit unreasonable. Even more so if we take into account that in the 1980's they changed their name from Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, which has history back into the 1950's.

So, I really don't get it when folks call for Israel to stop the fighting for, essentially, the benefit of "outsiders" to gain perspective? I also don't understand why people keep claiming that Israel is murdering and starving innocent Gazans when, as already stated, the IDF has been declaring safe zones and giving advanced warnings before the beginning of an offensive. It seems to me, that if people stay, regardless of the reasons, fault should not be assigned to the IDF.

Thank you for the response. Hamas in its early days received funding from some key players in Israel as they were seen as the the opportunity to destabilise the PLO (Palestine Liberation Organisation) - and the object lesson here is: Be careful what you wish for. I would like to see an end to this war (and also the war in Ukraine) because whatever is going on a the moment is essentially inhuman. People in Gaza, a very small area, have not been given the opportunity to leave, simply to move around the area. There has been a significant constraint don't the delivery of aid, food and medicine, reported in many places. I have some concerns when the regime engages in limiting the freedom of the press to report, and I have been critical of my own nation's government when they have made efforts like that in other matters.

My motivation is not to gain perspective. I have read 'Israel' by Noa Tishby and 'The Hundred Years War against Palestine" by Rashad Kahildi. And I would recommend them to anyone seeking to gain perspective.

 

[Philip_B]

No, they don't. They just distort who is doing what. Which supports Hamas.

I don't accept that statement.

You are when you compare them to the IDF.

Incorrect.

 

[rjs330]

That is not what is looks like. How can you say people limited in employment and travel with their airport blown up and surrounded by barbed wire fence were sitting pretty??

They werent oppressed. Israel left the area in 2006.

I would like to suggest that you watch the following video.

A few Christian voices on the situation in Gaza:

“Gaza is a prison, an open prison. Two million people packed inside there with a very difficult economic and social perspective for the future,” -- Cardinal Pierbattista Pizzaballa

“There is a siege from the sky, from the land, from the sea. Most of the people cannot use the Israeli border. The Egyptian border is closed most of the time. Usually when people ask what it is like to live in Gaza I say I’ve never been in a prison, but I live in one.” -- Gazan Pastor

"Gazans live like it's an open air prison since we can't leave. We can't visit relatives, look for work, medicine or good hospitals on the outside," -- Fr. Mario da Silva

"The Christians in Gaza belong to the oldest Christian community in the world, going back to the first century. In the fourth century, Gaza was a major Christian mission hub until 1948... The dire situation in Gaza, the largest open air prison in the world where they see the water there are polluted with high unemployment and five wars within 15 years.... They demand an end to the occupation, a just and lasting peace, so that they can keep their hope alive, where it's all started." -- Rev. Dr. Mitri Raheb

"The population of Gaza’s 2.3 million people are now living in an open-air prison... the Israeli-imposed Gaza blockade is a denial of basic human rights and amounts to collective punishment. -- Ghassan Tarazi, Palestinian Baptist

Interesting video. Obviously shot and commented on from the side of the Palastinians.

I do understand their point if view. Of someone came in and took over my town and home I'd be very upset. I'm sure the native Americans were very upset. And I understand how they would consider it their home and their house and their town. I would.

But this isn't about understanding. It's about reality. And in reality it wasn't theirs. It was the Ottomans and then the British. And then the UN gave it to the Israelis.

The thing is if the Native Americans were STILL attacking out of their nations and striking at civilians through whatever means, then I would expect the US government to do what is necessary to put a stop to it.

It's time the Palestinians wake up and realize Israel is there to stay. Just like we are in the US. And the only way to survive and make things better is to recognize that and stop attacking Israel. If the Palestinians would have done that a long time ago then they wouldn't be in the mess they are in. These aren't freedom fighters they are terrorists. Terrorists who want not to be free, but to destroy Israel. Which has always been the goal of the Palestinians.

After Israel took the land given to them the Palestinians could have settled on the next 20 years on setting up thier own state. Instead they wanted to get rid of Israel.

Could Israel done things differently in 1948? Sure. I don't think they handled it well. But truth be told they needed the land for the incoming Jews. If the Palestinians refused to give the land then there would have been no place for their nation. And I understand the fight to keep the land. I got it.

But they lost. Give it up already. They have their own land. Make something of it. The whole reason they are in the current situation they are in is because they absolutely refused to do so. They would rather spend their energy and efforts and money on attacking a nation that isn't going anywhere. It's folly. And they are reaping the whirlwind for it.

 

[rjs330]

Thank you for the response. Hamas in its early days received funding from some key players in Israel as they were seen as the the opportunity to destabilise the PLO (Palestine Liberation Organisation) - and the object lesson here is: Be careful what you wish for. I would like to see an end to this war (and also the war in Ukraine) because whatever is going on a the moment is essentially inhuman. People in Gaza, a very small area, have not been given the opportunity to leave, simply to move around the area. There has been a significant constraint don't the delivery of aid, food and medicine, reported in many places. I have some concerns when the regime engages in limiting the freedom of the press to report, and I have been critical of my own nation's government when they have made efforts like that in other matters.

My motivation is not to gain perspective. I have read 'Israel' by Noa Tishby and 'The Hundred Years War against Palestine" by Rashad Kahildi. And I would recommend them to anyone seeking to gain perspective.

Oh please, Rashid Kahilidi? A leftist American Plalestinian? Yeah read him if you want a completely leftist biased viewpoint. These guys don't know how to write history anymore.

 

[Philip_B]

Oh please, Rashid Kahilidi? A leftist American Plalestinian? Yeah read him if you want a completely leftist biased viewpoint. These guys don't know how to write history anymore.

I read both. Noa Tishby is the other side of the coin. I think you should read both.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Norway, Ireland and Spain say they will recognize a Palestinian state, deepening Israel’s isolation​

While some 140 countries — more than two-thirds of the United Nations — recognize a Palestinian state, Wednesday’s cascade of announcements could build momentum at a time when even close allies of Israel have piled on criticism for its conduct in Gaza.

 

[ralliann]

Norway, Ireland and Spain say they will recognize a Palestinian state, deepening Israel’s isolation​

While some 140 countries — more than two-thirds of the United Nations — recognize a Palestinian state, Wednesday’s cascade of announcements could build momentum at a time when even close allies of Israel have piled on criticism for its conduct in Gaza.

While they still hold hostages from Two counties. No big deal it seems.

 

[essentialsaltes]

While they still hold hostages from Two counties. No big deal it seems.

The State of Palestine does not hold hostages; Hamas does.

Israel's stated goal is to destroy Hamas, not Palestine. Or is it?

 

[ralliann]

The State of Palestine does not hold hostages; Hamas does.

Israel's stated goal is to destroy Hamas, not Palestine. Or is it?

Those who support a Palestinian state, support Hamas. Do the Palestinians support Hamas? YES! We are seeing it all over the globe. When Palestinians speak of Hamas for what they are, THEN those Palestinians can be distinguished out. Until then, no.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Those who support a Palestinian state, support Hamas.

The US government does not support Hamas, but "a negotiated two-state solution will continue to be a core U.S. policy objective."

 

[ralliann]

The US government does not support Hamas, but "a negotiated two-state solution will continue to be a core U.S. policy objective."

We are seeing support for Hamas all over college campuses. We see no call for Hamas to stop their war and terror on Israel. We see no calls for Hamas to give up hostages.

 

[Ted-01]

Thank you for the response. Hamas in its early days received funding from some key players in Israel as they were seen as the the opportunity to destabilise the PLO (Palestine Liberation Organisation) - and the object lesson here is: Be careful what you wish for. I would like to see an end to this war (and also the war in Ukraine) because whatever is going on a the moment is essentially inhuman. People in Gaza, a very small area, have not been given the opportunity to leave, simply to move around the area. There has been a significant constraint don't the delivery of aid, food and medicine, reported in many places. I have some concerns when the regime engages in limiting the freedom of the press to report, and I have been critical of my own nation's government when they have made efforts like that in other matters.

My motivation is not to gain perspective. I have read 'Israel' by Noa Tishby and 'The Hundred Years War against Palestine" by Rashad Kahildi. And I would recommend them to anyone seeking to gain perspective.

I'd like to see an end to this war, and every other one, haha, probably not going to happen.
I appreciate your conversational style... talking rather than arguing, it's refreshing.

A couple of points, where I take issue with your post. Folks are using language like, "...because whatever is going on a the moment is essentially inhuman." and "People in Gaza, a very small area, have not been given the opportunity to leave, simply to move around the area." when they're calling on Israel to stop all this. But that seems to be placing the blame on Israel and separates what they're doing as "inhumane", as though other wars/conflicts aren't... to me, this is provocative language, histrionics.
Israel isn't restricting the Gazans freedom in movement... other than the fact that the Palestinians are relegated to a conclave. (Which is a bad thing, IMHO, but an issue that's separate from this conversation.) It's Hamas that's doing the restricting, and it baffles me to no end how people keep excluding this atrocity from the narrative/discussion. As well as many other horrible things that Hamas has done since the beginning of this, most recent, conflict... to include the original attack and the taking, holding and murdering hostages. Why are these things not priority talking points in any discussions... it seems to me that it's always about the bad that Israel is doing and silence about Hamas. I think that any discussion needs to include both.
Getting the humanitarian aid in there also requires some focus on the activities of Hamas' hampering that whole agenda... not just a "we could make things happen if the IDF would just stop their aggressiveness."

As for "freedom of the press", I have mixed feelings on the whole issue, in general. While I think that it's good to have wars and conflicts documented, it can be used for purposes that aren't good at all. Embedded journals can become a liability to the troops, they're another layer of security risk and can endanger the troops as well as, unwittingly, give away valuable intel. I also think that wars have become a sort of entertaining media thing, complete with commentators who provoke and entice sentimentality. Also, in the last couple of decades, it promotes the use of social media platforms, which make money off of it all. It reminds of all the tales of ancient gladiatorial "games".

Anyway, just outta curiosity... what would you like to see happen, other than a full stop to the fighting?

 

[rjs330]

Norway, Ireland and Spain say they will recognize a Palestinian state, deepening Israel’s isolation​

While some 140 countries — more than two-thirds of the United Nations — recognize a Palestinian state, Wednesday’s cascade of announcements could build momentum at a time when even close allies of Israel have piled on criticism for its conduct in Gaza.

They can do whatever they want. The Palestinians are still responsible for creating it. And so far they haven't shown any will to do so.

 

[rjs330]

The State of Palestine does not hold hostages; Hamas does.

Israel's stated goal is to destroy Hamas, not Palestine. Or is it?

There us no state of Palestine. They've refused create one.

 

[Philip_B]

As well as many other horrible things that Hamas has done since the beginning of this, most recent, conflict... to include the original attack and the taking, holding and murdering hostages. Why are these things not priority talking points in any discussions... it seems to me that it's always about the bad that Israel is doing and silence about Hamas. I think that any discussion needs to include both.

I tend to agree.

Getting the humanitarian aid in there also requires some focus on the activities of Hamas' hampering that whole agenda... not just a "we could make things happen if the IDF would just stop their aggressiveness."

It is reasonably clear that Israel and the IDF have exercised a deal of control over the flow of aid. Aid into the Gaza Strip comes either through Israel or the Raffa Crossing which has been largely closed. A large percentage of the population of the Gaza Strip are refugees and Internally displaced persons. that means that the needs are high and the resources are small. This has opened the IDF to a charge of using the restriction of humanitarian aid as a weapon. As Palestine has no sovereignty, and offers of them having a state have always excluded sovereignty (the rights to secure borders and raise taxes) this means that the Raffa Crossing is a matter between Israel and Egypt.

As for "freedom of the press", I have mixed feelings on the whole issue, in general. While I think that it's good to have wars and conflicts documented, it can be used for purposes that aren't good at all. Embedded journals can become a liability to the troops, they're another layer of security risk and can endanger the troops as well as, unwittingly, give away valuable intel. I also think that wars have become a sort of entertaining media thing, complete with commentators who provoke and entice sentimentality. Also, in the last couple of decades, it promotes the use of social media platforms, which make money off of it all. It reminds of all the tales of ancient gladiatorial "games".

My concern for a free press is that is foundational, and I accept that we don't need to be told everything, when Government decide what we are to be told we are more likely to be deceived. Generally, totalitarian states are marked by significant restrictions on freedom of the press. One of the virtues of the 1st amendment to the US Constitution is that this is guaranteed. We don't have it guaranteed in Australia and at times we have had to fight for it, and in the end, it is the self-imprisonment of the press in a woke mindset that has provided the greatest risk to freedom of the press.

Anyway, just outta curiosity... what would you like to see happen, other than a full stop to the fighting?

Genesis 17:8
And I will give to you, and to your offspring after you, the land where you are now an alien, all the land of Canaan, for a perpetual holding; and I will be their God.’​

My point is that there were many offspring of Abraham who had children by three women, and the promised land as such is not the exclusive possession of only part of the family.

 

[Philip_B]

There us no state of Palestine. They've refused create one.

They were offered a State without Sovereignty. That hardly qualifies.

 

[JosephZ]

There us no state of Palestine. They've refused create one.

The Camp David and Taba summits provided the most generous offers to the Palestinians, yet there would be no recognition of statehood; it wouldn't allow the Palestinians to have a military, and they wouldn’t have control over their airspace. Israeli aircraft would be able to patrol and conduct surveillance of the Palestinian territories at any time for any reason without having to consult with Palestinian authorities. Palestinians also wouldn't have a guarantee of freedom of movement from north to south in the West Bank and between the West Bank and Gaza. Israel would also have control of the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the third-holiest site in Islam, which had once been under Palestinian control. Does that sound reasonable to you? If you were negotiating peace between the US and one of its adversaries and it proposed similar terms, would you accept them?

 

[essentialsaltes]

There us no state of Palestine. They've refused create one.

The State of Palestine is recognized as a UN non-member observer state.

 

[ralliann]

The US government does not support Hamas, but "a negotiated two-state solution will continue to be a core U.S. policy objective."

We (the US) are not supporting a terrorist state. At least so far we are not.