Israel-Hamas Thread II

[essentialsaltes]

[Former Israeli defense minister and war cabinet member Benny] Gantz warns he will withdraw from government if war cabinet does not lay out a plan by early June​

He said the plan should eliminate Hamas, bring back the hostages, establish an alternative government in the strip, bring back Israeli residents to the north of Israel, and set up a plan to make progress on normalization with Saudi Arabia.

Gantz said Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu must choose between "victory and disaster" as he issued the ultimatum.

"If (Netanyahu) choose(s) to lead the nation into the abyss, we will withdraw from the government, turn to the people, and form a government that can bring about a real victory," Gantz said.

 

[JosephZ]

Those were carried out by Hamas.

Not only Hamas. Thousands of rockets have been fired from Gaza by Islamic Jihad and other Palestinian terrorist groups in the past and these groups continue to fire rockets from Gaza until now.

Today:

Several rockets fired from northern Gaza towards Ashkelon

The Israeli army announced on Saturday that it had detected 10 rockets fired from the northern Gaza Strip toward the city of Ashkelon in southern Israel, the army radio reported.

"The army detected the launch of 10 rockets from the northern Gaza Strip towards the city of Ashkelon, where five of them were intercepted, while the others fell in open areas," said the army radio.

Al-Quds Brigades, the military wing of the group Islamic Jihad, said Saturday on Telegram that it "targeted the occupied Ashkelon with a barrage of rockets in response to the enemy's crimes against our people."


Since April 1st:

• The Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and the Popular Resistance Committees fired rockets from Jabalia refugee camp in a combined attack targeting Sderot. An Israeli war correspondent noted that Palestinian militias have been increasingly firing rockets at Sderot as Israeli forces advance in Jabalia. Palestinian militias have repeatedly fired rockets into Israel as Israeli ground forces approached launch sites during the war.
• The IDF reported that it intercepted one projectile and that three others fell in open areas near Kerem Shalom. The Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) claimed responsibility for two indirect fire attacks targeting Kerem Shalom.
• The Palestinian Mujahideen Movement conducted one rocket attack from the Gaza Strip targeting Sderot on April 26. This is the third consecutive day the Palestinian Mujahideen Movement has conducted rocket attacks into southern Israel.
• Palestinian Islamic Jihad launched rockets targeting an Israeli military site in southern Israel on April 20
• PIJ and the al Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades have conducted two rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip targeting Sderot and Nir Am in southern Israel
• PIJ launched a second salvo of rockets from the Gaza Strip targeting Ashkelon in southern Israel shortly after the first on April 18
• The Popular Resistance Committees, which is a Palestinian militia aligned with Hamas in the war, targeted an IDF base in Zikim.
• PIJ and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) conducted a combined rocket attack from the Gaza Strip targeting Sderot in southern Israel on April 12.
• Palestinian fighters fired at least two rocket barrages from the Gaza Strip targeting southern Israel on April 8. The al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, which is the self-proclaimed militant wing of Fatah, and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), which is a leftist Palestinian militia aligned with Hamas in the war, targeted an Israeli military site near the northern Gaza Strip with a combined rocket barrage.
• PIJ targeted towns in southern Israel with a five-rocket barrage shortly after all Israeli forces withdrew from the southern Gaza Strip. The Palestinian Mujahideen Movement separately targeted the IDF Gaza Division headquarters in Reim, southern Israel.
• PIJ fired rockets targeting Ashkelon, Sderot, and Nir Aam in southern Israel on April 4, meaning that Palestinian militias conducted six total that day.
• On April 5 Israeli air defenses intercepted two rockets fired by PIJ from the Gaza Strip over Netivot on April 4. Palestinian militias have not targeted Netivot since January 16. PIJ also fired mortars and rockets at three towns in southern Israel. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PLFP), a secular leftist Palestinian group fighting alongside Hamas in the war, fired a rocket salvo at Kissufim.

(Source)


In May 2023, The Palestinian Islamic Jihad fired nearly 1,000 rockets over a five day period.

Palestinian rockets fired towards Jerusalem

Israeli forces launched an air strike campaign against the Islamic Jihad leadership in the early hours on Tuesday, accusing them of planning attacks on Israel. Islamic Jihad, the second largest armed group in Gaza after the ruling Islamist Hamas, has since fired almost 1,000 rockets, some deep into Israel.

August 5-8, 2022, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad fired 1,100 rockets:

Operation Breaking Dawn

The IDF hit 170 targets during the fighting, destroying 45 long-range rocket launchers and 17 observation points along the Gaza border. Israeli forces also apprehended suspected members of PIJ in the West Bank.

An estimated 1,100 rockets were launched by Palestinian Islamic Jihad in the 56 hours of fighting, at least 200 malfunctioned and exploded within the Gaza Strip, and the Iron Dome intercepted 380.


A story from November 2019:

Islamic Jihad used new rocket with huge 300kg warhead during fighting

The Palestinian Islamic Jihad fired a new kind of rocket at Israel with a massive 300 kilogram (660 lb) warhead that left a huge crater where it exploded in southern Israel, Channel 12 reported Friday.

From predawn Tuesday to Thursday morning, Israel and Islamic Jihad fought a battle in which over 450 rockets and mortar shells were fired at Israel from Gaza.

A report from 2008 found that only 22% of rockets fired from Gaza were from Hamas.

The Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center estimated that in 2007 the proportions of rockets fired from the Gaza Strip were:

34% – Palestinian Islamic Jihad
22% – Hamas
 8% – Fatah
 6% – Popular Resistance Committees
30% – unknown

Right....with the overwhelming majority being carried out by Hamas, as your graph proves.

I'm not sure which graph you're talking about. I haven't posted a graph showing rocket attacks or terrorist attacks against Israel by perpetrator.

 

[rjs330]

Not only Hamas. Thousands of rockets have been fired from Gaza by Islamic Jihad and other Palestinian terrorist groups in the past and these groups continue to fire rockets from Gaza until now.

99% of them by Muslims.

 

[JosephZ]

99% of them by Muslims.

With Muslims making up more than 99% of the population of the Gaza Strip; that's to be expected.

 

[rjs330]

With Muslims making up more than 99% of the population of the Gaza Strip; that's to be expected.

Glad we agree.

 

[JosephZ]

The Taliban never left Afghanistan. Some of the leaders escaped, but not all, and most of the terrorists remained in the country. Also, the number of attacks carried out by the Taliban in Afghanistan increased the entire time we were in Afghanistan. There were more terrorist attacks carried out by the Taliban in 2020 alone than there were in the first 10 years of the war.

View attachment 339140

Most of the attacks, greater than 85%, were not targeting US forces; they were carried out against private citizens, religious institutions, schools, local police/security forces, and the Afghan government.

We have been reminded that this is an Israel-Hamas thread not a thread about Afghanistan, so I think we should end the off topic discussion here.

The Taliban did leave Afghanistan. The US beat them. But they hid in other countries tries where we couldn't touch them.

Good story.

Source?

Maybe you're confusing the Taliban with al Qaeda and foreign fighters that were allied with the Taliban.

The native Afghan Taliban, for example, were fighting only to prevent the extradition of a foreigner, Osama bin Laden, whom many of them resented anyway. They might be expected to display only limited commitment to such modest stakes.

Much of the actual fighting was shouldered, not by Afghan Taliban, but by foreigners, and especially by al Qaeda—and these foreign troops were much better motivated than their Afghan comrades. Our opponents in this campaign were not a monolithic or homogeneous military. Instead, their three major components (the indigenous Afghan Taliban, the predominantly foreign al Qaeda, and other, non-al Qaeda foreign allies of the Taliban) differed in many important respects. Among the most important of these differences was combat motivation: whereas the indigenous Afghan Taliban quit the field quickly, the foreigners did not.

The distinction between Afghan and foreign Taliban is important. The al Qaeda soldiers in the key battles were much better trained than the Afghan Taliban. Unlike the latter, which were often closer to a civilian militia than a professional army, the al Qaeda troops were committed, full-time soldiers.

In southern Afghanistan, the [Taliban's] traditional stronghold, they remained popular throughout the war and indeed to this day.

Most of the top Taliban leadership has survived the war and eluded capture; many are in Pakistan and seeking to re-integrate into Afghanistan. Of more than three dozen Taliban leaders on the Pentagon’s “wanted list,” more than 12 have been killed, injured or have defected.

The Taliban have been driven from power in Afghanistan, fragmented as a political force, and widely discredited as an ideological movement. Nonetheless, many members and veterans are likely to re-assume a role in the Afghan polity -- some as provincial insurgents, others as members or even leaders of other formations.

The clearest achievement of Operation Enduring Freedom was forcing the Taliban from power. But this goal was secondary to the one of destroying the Al Qaeda network, which is down but not out. And, despite the change of government in Kabul, Afghanistan is less stable today than before the operation.

When the Taliban forces finally and fully quit their positions, it gave the appearance of their having simply disappeared. In the south, those Taliban who did not retreat to Kandahar were able to melt into their surroundings. This process was evident in Jalalabad, for instance, where former mujahedin leader Younis Khalis negotiated the turnover of the city from the Taliban. The Taliban leadership fled the area, but lower-level Taliban fighters with local ties remained behind, many presumably joining Khalis’ militia. Khalis’ had headed one the traditionalist parties during the anti-Soviet war -- a faction of Hisb-e-Islami -- with strong Pashtun tribal connections. Mullah Omar, among other Taliban leaders, had been a member of this faction.

The Taliban had executed a strategic withdrawal and reorientation during the second week of November, relinquishing any pretense to power in three quarters of the area previously under their control. In essence, when they withdrew their core cadre, they removed the solder that held their political-military coalition together. Their apparent strategy was to reconstitute with their best fighters in and around their home areas in the south, where they might conduct a combination of positional defense and guerilla warfare. The Taliban also effected a separation from most of the Al Qaeda care, many of whom took refuge in the Tora Bora fortified base near Jalalabad, about 350 miles from Kandahar.

(Source) PDF
(Source) PDF

 

[JosephZ]

Glad we agree.

Just not for the same reason.

 

[truthpls]

Not only Hamas. Thousands of rockets have been fired from Gaza by Islamic Jihad and other Palestinian terrorist groups in the past and these groups continue to fire rockets from Gaza until now.

It is funny that if Israel fires rockets it is not considered terrorist but self defence.

 

[truthpls]

With Muslims making up more than 99% of the population of the Gaza Strip; that's to be expected.

Especially when thousands of them were killed already by Israel, including their mothers, fathers, parents, children, etc etc. Is it any surprise they would try to fight the best way they knew how? Israel should have addressed the actual problem, rather than mass murdering many more.

 

[rjs330]

It is funny that if Israel fires rockets it is not considered terrorist but self defence.

Why should it be? If you shoot rockets at me for 10 years and I finally shoot back I'm not the terrorist. You are.

 

[essentialsaltes]

It is funny that if Israel fires rockets it is not considered terrorist but self defence.

Patriots and Iron Dome are defensive systems to knock out rockets in the air. Are Israelis using offensive rockets?

 

[truthpls]

Why should it be? If you shoot rockets at me for 10 years and I finally shoot back I'm not the terrorist. You are.

If an oppressed people fight back, as human nature would demand, then maybe look at suppressing them and maybe sharing and treating them like human beings. That might take away some pressure and reasons they do shoot. One idea might be to stop kidnapping innocent young people and others and holding them by the thousands in jails as virtual hostages. The stories going around of rape and horrors that happen there are many. Starving a population is terrorism. Wiping out their homes and hospitals etc is terrorism. Mass murdering tens of thousands of them is terrorism. Stopping aid and shooting aid workers is terrorism. etc etc. The claim Israel finally shoots back is less than laughable.

 

[truthpls]

Patriots and Iron Dome are defensive systems to knock out rockets in the air. Are Israelis using offensive rockets?

They have bombarded houses and civilian areas with thousands of bombs. Seriously? You think that calling flying metal explosive shells something other than rockets changes anything?

 

[rjs330]

If an oppressed people fight back, as human nature would demand, then maybe look at suppressing them and maybe sharing and treating them like human beings. That might take away some pressure and reasons they do shoot. One idea might be to stop kidnapping innocent young people and others and holding them by the thousands in jails as virtual hostages. The stories going around of rape and horrors that happen there are many. Starving a population is terrorism. Wiping out their homes and hospitals etc is terrorism. Mass murdering tens of thousands of them is terrorism. Stopping aid and shooting aid workers is terrorism. etc etc. The claim Israel finally shoots back is less than laughable.

They weren't oppressed. They've lived there for a very long time. They could have built a thriving economy in a novice area. But thier hatred for Israel was their undoing. The Jews hadn't been there since 2006.

The propaganda and lies you believe are very telling.

Israel hasn't mass murdered anyone. They are fighting a war against evil and against a people who supported it and continue to do so.

Yes Israel finally had enough. And they.woild have stopped during the first week if Hamas had surrendered. And if the Palestinians would have helped Israel locate them and all their tunnels. But instead they continued to hide and assist them. Let them live among them. Shoot from their homes. Invade their hospitals and use them as bases. Ride in their ambulances.

Nope the Palestinians brought this on themselves and are reaping the whirlwind for thier eternal hatred and desire to destroy Israel. They could have a long time ago had their own state and created a thriving stare and economy. Instead they chose the path of hate and destruction.

Let this be a lesson.

 

[truthpls]

They weren't oppressed.

That is not what is looks like. How can you say people limited in employment and travel with their airport blown up and surrounded by barbed wire fence were sitting pretty??

They've lived there for a very long time. They could have built a thriving economy in a novice area. But thier hatred for Israel was their undoing. The Jews hadn't been there since 2006.

How can prisoners build anything? Could they build an airport or sea port? Could they travel freely to visit loved ones in other occupied areas? Like prisoners payed a pittance to make licence plates or something, we could not say they were freely and productively employed and doing well. Let His people go

Israel hasn't mass murdered anyone.

The count is well known, although probably quite minimized. No denying possible.

They are fighting a war against evil and against a people who supported it and continue to do so.

No they are calling genocide and mass murder and collective punishment 'war'!

Yes Israel finally had enough. And they.woild have stopped during the first week if Hamas had surrendered.

As would Hamas is Israel surrendered...so? That is no license to mass murder children. That is a foolish and unrealistic pipe dream.

And if the Palestinians would have helped Israel locate them and all their tunnels.

Maybe Israel should help Hamas locate the tunnels Israel's nukes hide in as well?

But instead they continued to hide and assist them.

As above

Let them live among them. Shoot from their homes. Invade their hospitals and use them as bases. Ride in their ambulances.

Many of their young people apparently were pushed into gorilla warfare by decades of thefts of their lands, freedom and the killing of their families it seems. Why deny the obvious?

Nope the Palestinians brought this on themselves and are reaping the whirlwind for thier eternal hatred and desire to destroy Israel.

No one brings mass murder of children and women and civilians on themselves! That is like Hitler claiming the Jews brought it on themselves.

They could have a long time ago had their own state and created a thriving stare and economy. Instead they chose the path of hate and destruction.

A prison economy is doomed to be limited.

 

[JosephZ]

They weren't oppressed. They've lived there for a very long time. They could have built a thriving economy in a novice area. But thier hatred for Israel was their undoing. The Jews hadn't been there since 2006.

The propaganda and lies you believe are very telling.

I would like to suggest that you watch the following video.

A few Christian voices on the situation in Gaza:

“Gaza is a prison, an open prison. Two million people packed inside there with a very difficult economic and social perspective for the future,” -- Cardinal Pierbattista Pizzaballa

“There is a siege from the sky, from the land, from the sea. Most of the people cannot use the Israeli border. The Egyptian border is closed most of the time. Usually when people ask what it is like to live in Gaza I say I’ve never been in a prison, but I live in one.” -- Gazan Pastor

"Gazans live like it's an open air prison since we can't leave. We can't visit relatives, look for work, medicine or good hospitals on the outside," -- Fr. Mario da Silva

"The Christians in Gaza belong to the oldest Christian community in the world, going back to the first century. In the fourth century, Gaza was a major Christian mission hub until 1948... The dire situation in Gaza, the largest open air prison in the world where they see the water there are polluted with high unemployment and five wars within 15 years.... They demand an end to the occupation, a just and lasting peace, so that they can keep their hope alive, where it's all started." -- Rev. Dr. Mitri Raheb

"The population of Gaza’s 2.3 million people are now living in an open-air prison... the Israeli-imposed Gaza blockade is a denial of basic human rights and amounts to collective punishment. -- Ghassan Tarazi, Palestinian Baptist

 

[essentialsaltes]

They have bombarded houses and civilian areas with thousands of bombs. Seriously? You think that calling flying metal explosive shells something other than rockets changes anything?

It certainly changes the accuracy of the statement.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Families of Israeli hostages to file war crimes complaint against Hamas in The Hague​

Prof. Robbie Sabel of the Faculty of Law at the Hebrew University noted that the ICC’s chief prosecutor, Karim Kahn, has already stated that he is carrying out an investigation into Hamas’s actions, as well as Israel’s military operation in Gaza.

He ... cautioned that it typically takes a significant period of time for the ICC to issue arrest warrants after a complaint is filed. [Israel itself is not a member of the ICC and does not recognize it.]

ICC prosecutor seeks arrest warrants for Hamas and Israeli government officials​

The prosecutor of the International Criminal Court said Monday that he was seeking arrest warrants against senior officials in the Israel-Gaza conflict, including Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Hamas leader Yehiya Sinwar, on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity. The court’s prosecutor, Karim Khan, said he was also seeking arrest warrants for Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant, as well as two other top Hamas leaders — Mohammed Diab Ibrahim al-Masri, the leader of the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades and better known as Mohammed Deif, and Ismail Haniyeh, Hamas’s political leader.

But the ultimate decision on whether to grant any of the arrest warrants rests with judges in the ICC’s Pre-Trial Chamber.

In the past, ICC judges have taken from a few weeks to several months to issue warrants. After Khan requested a warrant to be issued against Russian President Vladimir Putin on Feb. 22, 2023, judges granted the request on March 17

Karim Khan said he had “reasonable grounds” to believe that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Yoav Gallant were responsible for crimes including starvation of civilians as a method of warfare, willful killing and murder, intentionally directing attacks against a civilian population and extermination.

In the case of Hamas leaders Yehiya Sinwar, Mohammed Deif and Ismail Haniyeh, the prosecutor said his office had reasonable grounds to believe that the men were criminally liable for extermination as a crime against humanity, taking hostages, rape and other acts of sexual violence, torture and cruel treatment in the context of captivity.

 

[ralliann]

They weren't oppressed. They've lived there for a very long time. They could have built a thriving economy in a novice area. But thier hatred for Israel was their undoing. The Jews hadn't been there since 2006.

The propaganda and lies you believe are very telling.

Israel hasn't mass murdered anyone. They are fighting a war against evil and against a people who supported it and continue to do so.

Yes Israel finally had enough. And they.woild have stopped during the first week if Hamas had surrendered. And if the Palestinians would have helped Israel locate them and all their tunnels. But instead they continued to hide and assist them. Let them live among them. Shoot from their homes. Invade their hospitals and use them as bases. Ride in their ambulances.

Nope the Palestinians brought this on themselves and are reaping the whirlwind for thier eternal hatred and desire to destroy Israel. They could have a long time ago had their own state and created a thriving stare and economy. Instead they chose the path of hate and destruction.

Let this be a lesson.

They could have had a state years ago, but instead hated Israel and attempted to rid them of the land. This was their own undoing.

 

[truthpls]

It certainly changes the accuracy of the statement.

The currency of the number of dead changes as well when we have the number of projectiles fired by Israel into population zones. The degree of terrorism is far greater.