Israel-Hamas Thread II

[Vanellus]

You didn't make a comparison. You said: "Agreeing with something is not generally punishable by death in any legal system I know."

Do you think it is a good thing to teach elementary kids that it is OK to kill Jews?

No, they have been attacked because the gazans allow hamas to use them for military purposes. You need to read more news.

It was you who made the comparison between the Israeli and Russian leadership citing the example of Navalny who is suspected of being murdered on the orders of the Russian leadership. This was a rather weird and fallacious argument to support the idea that it is ok to collectively punish the entire population of Gaza for allegedly agreeing with the October 7 attack even though collective punishment is against international law.

Answering a question with a question: is that the best that you can do? You need to answer my question first.

Do you really think it is a good idea to unthinkingly repeat the IDF propaganda lines when they have been shown to have lied repeatedly:

Fact Sheet: Israel’s History of Spreading Disinformation | IMEU

And don't think that decrying the sources will wash. That would just show you are entirely wedded to believing everything the Israeli authorities say.

Note that Israeli children are taught to hate Palestinians:
When Israelis Teach Their Kids To Hate

 

[civilwarbuff]

It was you who made the comparison between the Israeli and Russian leadership citing the example of Navalny who is suspected of being murdered on the orders of the Russian leadership.

That was no comparison, it was simply a statement. Please learn the difference.

This was a rather weird and fallacious argument to support the idea that it is ok to collectively punish the entire population of Gaza for allegedly agreeing with the October 7 attack even though collective punishment is against international law.

Never made any such claim and never will. Please stop lying about what I say or, at the very least, post where I supposedly said something. Your twisted interpretation of something does not pass muster for truth. It is too bad that lying about what someone says is not against the rules here; there would be much less junk to have to wade through.

Answering a question with a question: is that the best that you can do? You need to answer my question first.

Why not? You just give deliberately twisted interpretations of my questions and statements anyways. I won't try to legitimize your so called 'responses/questions'.

Do you really think it is a good idea to unthinkingly repeat the IDF propaganda lines when they have been shown to have lied repeatedly:

Fact Sheet: Israel’s History of Spreading Disinformation | IMEU

Why not?.....it seems that is your tactic.....using things like gazan mouthpieces as 'evidence'.

And don't think that decrying the sources will wash. That would just show you are entirely wedded to believing everything the Israeli authorities say.

Please excuse the extreme plagiarism: And don't think that posting gazan sympathizing sources will wash. That would just show you are entirely wedded to believing everything the gazan authorities say.

From your article: I can imagine that despair and hopelessness probably rattled the Jewish community. How could there ever be peace when kids are trained to aspire toward violence and militancy?

Why haven't you asked the same thing of the gazans/Arabs? Afraid of the answer you might get?
Oh, and please try not to confuse the official positions of militancy of hate and violence against Jews taught to Arab children in Arab schools (official governmental positions) with some Israeli adults encouraging the same thing privately with their children. We have similar things in the US as do other countries in their own homes.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Interesting, especially if true......

Sorry, this popped up long after I posted it......

 

[civilwarbuff]

Another painful video for all the hamas lovers......

 

[Valletta]

"From that perspective, Israel’s war objective — the elimination of Gaza’s Hamas regime — is essential. Leaving the job unfinished, with Hamas’s existence tolerated and its actions contained, has been tried, and it has failed. The Israeli people cannot be reasonably asked to return to the pre-war status quo. That is the position our own nations took toward the attacks launched by Nazi Germany against us. Israel has as absolute a right to absolute security now as we did then.
Of course, we all wish the war to end. From the ongoing suffering of Israeli hostages and their families to Palestinian children caught in the crossfire, innocent people on both sides have suffered horribly. So, this war should end. And it should end the same way our war with the Nazis did — by the unconditional surrender of its perpetrators. I say to Israel’s friends, stop asking it to stop short of victory. Instead, bring pressure to bear on Hamas, directly and through its allies and partners, to force its capitulation."

Stephen Harper: Israel's war is just, Hamas must surrender or be eliminated

It is foolish to think a two-state solution will emerge while so many Palestinians still reject the existence of a Jewish state

nationalpost.com

 

[ralliann]

I don't think you are that ignorant or unable to derive meaning from words.


Why is that justification for genocide?

It isn'i. genocide is a false claim. It is self defense.

The genocide is being waged on the Palestinians, after years of being in an open air prison with limited access to their own funds, water or electricity.


*are*
Spell out what you think the double standard here is? Can you do the math:

• How many Israelis were killed in the Hamas attack out of how many total?
• How many Gazans were killed in retaliation out of how many total?

Israel is defending itself against genocide. How the Palestinians wage war is of their own making.

 

[ralliann]

As I have previously explained, Hamas may still exist, much like the Nazi Party still exists today. Sadly, there are always those who align themselves with evil. It is clear that with all of the tunnels to hospitals and schools a good portion of the Palestinians had to be aware that money for the families and children of Gaza was being diverted to kill Jews. I think they should be put on trial as accessories. Egypt and other countries realize this and are taking in few Palestinians.

It would be fantastic if the Arab nations would take in Gazans.

 

[Philip_B]

It would be fantastic if the Arab nations would take in Gazans.

Why? Palestine is their homeland. Would the USAmericans be happy to move to Canada or Mexico?

 

[ralliann]

Why? Palestine is their homeland. Would the USAmericans be happy to move to Canada or Mexico?

Why? So they cannot be used for sheilds. Nothing can be done for those which choose to stay and support Hamas. What has this to do with Americans and Canada or Mexico?

 

[Vanellus]

'Cockroaches' seems pretty tame by comparison.

Vanellus said:
So do you think it's ok to compare the people of Gaza to cockroaches?

Despite all the bluster you didn't answer this question. You are an ardent supporter of Israel in this conflict and so I am asking if you agree with this statement:

In a committee of the Israeli parliament in 1983, General Rafael Eitan boasted of his triumphs on the West Bank. "All the Arabs will be able to do is scuttle around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle".

Eitan is a former Israeli army Chief-of-Staff General
from: In a state of cruelty

Jewish academic and expert on Gaza, Norman Finkelstein, has said that the Israelis are treating the Gazans as cockroaches, forcing them to scuttle from one hiding place to another
Warsaw-Rafah: Scurrying Cockroaches | Norman Finkelstein

The serial ethnic cleansings of the people of Gaza, to culminate with the expulsion of 1.4 million people trapped in Rafah (half of them children) to either al-Musawi, a forlorn desert area the size of Los Angeles Airport, or into the Egyptian Sinai, reminded me of something my late Mother once said about her experience during the Nazi holocaust: “It was not a war; it was an extermination. We were like cockroaches, scurrying this way or that whenever the light shone on us.”

 

[Philip_B]

Why? So they cannot be used for sheilds. Nothing can be done for those which choose to stay and support Hamas. What has this to do with Americans and Canada or Mexico?

We are all people, and we are all equal, and I am not invoking Animal Farm's closing mantra 'all animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others'.

I strongly recommend people read two Wikipedia Articles.

Hamas - Wikipedia

Hamas, an acronym of its official name, Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya (Islamic Resistance Movement), is a Palestinian Sunni Islamist political and military movement governing parts of the occupied Gaza Strip.​

​

Hamas was founded by Palestinian imam and activist Ahmed Yassin in 1987, after the outbreak of the First Intifada against the Israeli occupation. It emerged from his 1973 Mujama al-Islamiya Islamic charity affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood. In 2006, Hamas won the Palestinian legislative election by campaigning on Palestinian armed resistance against the Israeli occupation, thus securing a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council. In 2007, Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip from rival Palestinian faction Fatah, which it has governed since separately from the Palestinian National Authority. This was followed by an Israeli blockade of the Gaza Strip with Egyptian support, and multiple wars with Israel, including in 2008–09, 2012, 2014, and 2021. The ongoing 2023 war began after Hamas launched an attack, killing both civilians and soldiers, and taking hostages back to Gaza. The attack has been described as the biggest military setback for Israel since the 1973 Arab–Israeli War, which Israel has responded to in an ongoing ground invasion of Gaza. ....​

Hamaas - Wikipedia

Hamaas (Hebrew: המעש, HaMa'as, lit. 'the Action' or 'the Deed') was a weekly publication of the Lehi, an armed Zionist militant group in Mandatory Palestine. Other publications by the Lehi included the daily Mivrak, the monthly HeHahzit, and BaMahteret.​

​

The publication first came to public attention in July 1946 after the report of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry and a British Colonial Office White Paper identified an article in the second issue indicating that a Lehi attack on the Haifa Oil Refinery on the night of 31 October/1 November 1945 had been coordinated with other attacks on the same night by the Haganah (on railways), the Irgun (on Lydda railway station) and the Palmach (on two British coast guard vessels in Haifa harbour) under the overall direction of the Jewish Agency. Hamaas noted,​

 

[Vanellus]

.it seems that is your tactic.....using things like gazan mouthpieces as 'evidence'.

You didn't define what you meant by "Gazan mouthpieces" but assuming you mean the casualty figures published by the Gazan Health Authority, Reuters etc have stated the accuracy of their figures. If not the GHA, who did you mean?

See post #2322 for what Reuters wrote about the GHA

 

[Vanellus]

That was no comparison, it was simply a statement.

You: "It points out that the Gazans are simply shooting themselves in the foot"
Me: "Agreeing with something is not generally punishable by death in any legal system I know"
You: "Navalny might have a different opinion....."

Note that this thread is about Israel/Hamas or more accurately Israel/Palestine since many Palestinians are being killed in the West Bank.

You were arguing that Gazans allegedly celebrating October 7 and not informing on Hamas for the IDF (people, including Israeli hostages waving white flags have been shot by the IDF) are contributing to their own demise (death: nearly 30,000 now plus those unaccounted for or dying through disease or starvation). I replied by stating that agreeing with something is not generally punishable by death in a legal system. You then replied "Navalny might have a different opinion....."

It is suspected that Navalny was murdered on the orders of the Russian leadership. Hence you made a comparison between Navalny and the Russian leadership with Gazans and the Israeli leadership. If it was a "statement", it was wholly irrelevant. This thread is not about Russia.

 

[ralliann]

You: "It points out that the Gazans are simply shooting themselves in the foot"
Me: "Agreeing with something is not generally punishable by death in any legal system I know"
You: "Navalny might have a different opinion....."

Note that this thread is about Israel/Hamas or more accurately Israel/Palestine since many Palestinians are being killed in the West Bank.

You were arguing that Gazans allegedly celebrating October 7 and not informing on Hamas for the IDF (people, including Israeli hostages waving white flags have been shot by the IDF) are contributing to their own demise (death: nearly 30,000 now plus those unaccounted for or dying through disease or starvation). I replied by stating that agreeing with something is not generally punishable by death in a legal system. You then replied "Navalny might have a different opinion....."

It is suspected that Navalny was murdered on the orders of the Russian leadership. Hence you made a comparison between Navalny and the Russian leadership with Gazans and the Israeli leadership. If it was a "statement", it was wholly irrelevant. This thread is not about Russia.

No, it is not about Russia. It is about Israel defending itself. The Gazan military committed genocide in Israel. They refuse to stop, and made that clear. Israel needs to do what it needs to do to defend itself.

 

[DaisyDay]

It isn'i. genocide is a false claim. It is self defense

No, it’s a genocide. The Israelis, the Netanyahu faction leastways, do want to end the Gazan Palestinians. He has made no bones about it.

The Gazans are not a threat now. The mass killings of civilians, so many of whom are children, is revenge.

Israel is defending itself against genocide.

No, the Gazans don’t have the power.

How the Palestinians wage war is of their own making.

They are waging war by starving and having their limbs blown off? Half the thousands of dead and limbless are children, but this is of their own making.

 

[DaisyDay]

Why? So they cannot be used for sheilds. Nothing can be done for those which choose to stay and support Hamas. What has this to do with Americans and Canada or Mexico?

Don’t you know that Gazans can’t leave? They are literally walled in.

 

[ralliann]

No, it’s a genocide.

No it is not

The Israelis, the Netanyahu faction leastways, do want to end the Gazan Palestinians. He has made no bones about it.

The Gazans are not a threat now. The mass killings of civilians, so many of whom are children, is revenge.

No, the Gazans don’t have the power.



They are waging war by starving and having their limbs blown off? Half the thousands of dead and limbless are children, but this is of their own making.

They have been asked to surrender, they won't do it. That is not Israel's fault.

 

[ralliann]

Don’t you know that Gazans can’t leave? They are literally walled in.

Their military can cease fire, and accept defeat.

 

[JosephZ]

No it is not

They have been asked to surrender, they won't do it. That is not Israel's fault.

If Hamas refuses to surrender, do you believe Israel has a right to destroy every single home, school, and hospital, along with all infrastructure in the Gaza Strip? Remove every Palestinian living there. Because that's what it would take to defeat Hamas in Gaza. But even after all of that, it still wouldn't be enough to defeat Hamas as a terrorist group. You see, the more Israel attacks and destroys Gaza, the stronger Hamas grows. Hamas will be found in the refugee camps outside of Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, and anywhere else there's a significant Palestinian population. Hamas will never be defeated militarily, and Israel killing and maiming tens of thousands of Palestinians, along with displacing countless more, only benefits Hamas and increases the possibility of additional October 7th-type attacks occurring in the future.

 

[ralliann]

View attachment 343019

If Hamas refuses to surrender, do you believe Israel has a right to destroy every single home, school, and hospital, along with all infrastructure in the Gaza Strip? Remove every Palestinian living there. Because that's what it would take to defeat Hamas in Gaza. But even after all of that, it still wouldn't be enough to defeat Hamas as a terrorist group. You see, the more Israel attacks and destroys Gaza, the stronger Hamas grows. Hamas will be found in the refugee camps outside of Gaza, the West Bank, Lebanon, and anywhere else there's a significant Palestinian population. Hamas will never be defeated militarily, and Israel killing and maiming tens of thousands of Palestinians, along with displacing countless more, only benefits Hamas and increases the possibility of additional October 7th-type attacks occurring in the future.

It is you who is saying the Gazans are all Hamas. Hamas needs to be defeated.