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Israel-Hamas Thread II

ralliann

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See post #2,920, there not much in Netanyahu &Co's rhetoric

and treatment of the people of Gaza that even match up to the traits of Abrahams disciples.
I don't know about their rhetoric. There has been bad treatment all around. But I do agree Israel needs to get Hamas out. It would be nice to hear a call for them to cease fire. I just am skeptical there can be a two state solution. It would be good though if it were possible
 
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Philip_B

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ralliann

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Philip_B

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Israel needs to get rid of Hamas. There cannot be any talks until Hamas ceases fire and they get their hostages back. Biden does a lot of crazy stuff.
I am sure Biden is not the only American who does crazy stuff. If all we take is a pro-Israel stance, or pro-Palestine stance and refuse to hear what Palestinian or Israeli people are saying, we accord them no respect, they will expect no justice, and you will simply perpetuate the status quo. You and I are on the sidelines of this debate, we do not need to be fully invested on one side or the other. We are uniquely positioned to see the bigger picture.
 
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ralliann

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I am sure Biden is not the only American who does crazy stuff. If all we take is a pro-Israel stance, or pro-Palestine stance and refuse to hear what Palestinian or Israeli people are saying, we accord them no respect, they will expect no justice, and you will simply perpetuate the status quo. You and I are on the sidelines of this debate, we do not need to be fully invested on one side or the other. We are uniquely positioned to see the bigger picture.
I have heard Israeli people, and Palestinian people. They have both been in the media extensively.
 
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civilwarbuff

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Remain in the dark then.
Well, since Rabbi Yehuda lived in the 2nd century A.D. he obviously did not hear it first hand so it must have been passed down to him. Is there any written text from the time of Abraham that substantiates this claim? I mean, it was about what.....2,000 years prior to your Rabbi? I mean, that's a long time for any tradition to survive without being in written form.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Perhaps the devil is in the detail. I suspect that Israel's requirements to agree are unacceptable to the Palestinians. and vice-versa.

Jerusalem itself is very difficult as it holds sacred sites for Moslems, Jews, and Christians. There was a huge uproar recently when some Israeli Officials entered one of the Mosques. Mark 13:14 came to mind with the alarm at Roman Standards being set within the Temple Precinct.

If we want Peace then we have to play nicely, otherwise it will not work. If you can not have an element of respect for the three Great Traditions who look to Abraham amongst others, I don't see much hope. And yes, that is a 3-way street.
When your (un)"Holy Book" exhorts your followers to murder "infidels" such as Christians and Jews, I don't know how you can expect to be neighbours with them. Jews reject Jesus so there is no commonality there. At least they are non violent. Islam rejects everything non-Muslim. I really don't get this "Abrahamic religion" concept. Jews have some claim as physical descendants of the son of promise. But the Bible is clear that the "seed" of Abraham is Jesus. Islam has even less claim. Ishmael was rejected because he despised Isaac. And nothing has changed in about 4,000 years.

This may change. There is a move towards recognition and even a merger of Catholicism, Islam and Judaism. I believe this to be the one world religion that will be formed by the Antichrist. I'm 72, so I may not see that day. But I am seeing some movement towards it. And I may be wrong. Some Pentecostals (Brian Houston for one) call Islam one of the Abrahamic religions. A local Pentecostal Bible college invited Muslim scholars to speak at a conference. The credulity of humanity knows few bounds. I have more sympathy for FE people than those who accept Islam as an "Abrahamic religion". FE people don't murder those who disagree with them. Deluded, yes, also harmless.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Mine too, and for me it reminds me that fighting for peace may not require weapons of war, for justice and truth are far more effective.
Justice and truth? Rare commodities indeed. What is just about a woman reporting being raped and imprisoned for having sex outside of marriage? Islam 101. What about Putin's invasion of Ukraine? There is no truth or justice in that disaster. The days of Ghandi are well and truly over. The rulers of the world prefer war.
 
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JosephZ

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When your (un)"Holy Book" exhorts your followers to murder "infidels" such as Christians and Jews, I don't know how you can expect to be neighbours with them.
The violent verses found in the Qur'an and those that call for the killing of "infidels" have a very specific application. In each and every verse where the killing of unbelievers is mentioned, there are strict conditions prescribed for doing so, and not a single one calls for the killing of unbelievers simply for being unbelievers.

Textual and historical context are key to interpreting religious scriptures, and the verses that call for killing in the Qur'an were revealed to specific audiences under specific circumstances that took place over 1,400 years ago. That point in history and those being spoken to have long passed, and the verses commanding that unbelievers be killed or converted to Islam are not applicable to Muslims living in 2024.

What is just about a woman reporting being raped and imprisoned for having sex outside of marriage? Islam 101.
Islam teaches that the victim of rape is not liable to any punishment.

Men who coerce women to zina [fornication and adultery] are to receive hadd [punishment], while the hadd is averted from the women in these cases due to their lack of consent.

There is no disagreement among the Muslim jurists that there is no Hadd
[punishment] for the coerced woman. There are explicit texts from the Qur'an and hadith proving that rape has a different conception compared to zina [fornication and adultery] especially in terms of proving and conviction. The misconception and confusion of generalizing adultery to rape should not exist as they differ in proving and convicting.


 
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Aussie Pete

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The violent verses found in the Qur'an and those that call for the killing of "infidels" have a very specific application. In each and every verse where the killing of unbelievers is mentioned, there are strict conditions prescribed for doing so, and not a single one calls for the killing of unbelievers simply for being unbelievers.

Textual and historical context are key to interpreting religious scriptures, and the verses that call for killing in the Qur'an were revealed to specific audiences under specific circumstances that took place over 1,400 years ago. That point in history and those being spoken to have long passed, and the verses commanding that unbelievers be killed or converted to Islam are not applicable to Muslims living in 2024.


Islam teaches that the victim of rape is not liable to any punishment.

Men who coerce women to zina [fornication and adultery] are to receive hadd [punishment], while the hadd is averted from the women in these cases due to their lack of consent.

There is no disagreement among the Muslim jurists that there is no Hadd
[punishment] for the coerced woman. There are explicit texts from the Qur'an and hadith proving that rape has a different conception compared to zina [fornication and adultery] especially in terms of proving and conviction. The misconception and confusion of generalizing adultery to rape should not exist as they differ in proving and convicting.


You can try to whitewash Islam all you like. It is a murderous and violent religion that is intent on controlling the whole world. It's founder was a mass murdering, lying paedophile with a god complex. Islam denies the death and resurrection of Jesus, the central tenet of Christianity. Jesus died for His people and for the Kingdom of God. Mohamed and his followers murdered their way to an empire. It is unutterably evil and the world will curse the day when they allowed Muslims into their non-Muslim nations. It's already happening at government levels. I had to quit following the progress of Islam in the West as I was getting angry at what our leaders were foisting on us.

"Muslim Jurists" don't make the laws. The Qur'an is used to justify all kinds of evil. Islam is what Islam does. Indonesia is touted as an example of how Muslims and non-Muslims can coexist. Sure, compared to most Muslim nations, it is. But you still have to tread carefully. A woman was imprisoned for complaining about the noise from a mosque. 18 months. The ex governor of Jakarta was imprisoned for the mildest criticism of Muslim political figures. The province of Aceh is under Sharia law. The Christians there are routinely attacked, their homes and churches burned.
 
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ralliann

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You can try to whitewash Islam all you like. It is a murderous and violent religion that is intent on controlling the whole world. It's founder was a mass murdering, lying paedophile with a god complex. Islam denies the death and resurrection of Jesus, the central tenet of Christianity. Jesus died for His people and for the Kingdom of God. Mohamed and his followers murdered their way to an empire. It is unutterably evil and the world will curse the day when they allowed Muslims into their non-Muslim nations. It's already happening at government levels. I had to quit following the progress of Islam in the West as I was getting angry at what our leaders were foisting on us.

"Muslim Jurists" don't make the laws. The Qur'an is used to justify all kinds of evil. Islam is what Islam does. Indonesia is touted as an example of how Muslims and non-Muslims can coexist. Sure, compared to most Muslim nations, it is. But you still have to tread carefully. A woman was imprisoned for complaining about the noise from a mosque. 18 months. The ex governor of Jakarta was imprisoned for the mildest criticism of Muslim political figures. The province of Aceh is under Sharia law. The Christians there are routinely attacked, their homes and churches burned.
I don't know why these Christians are defending Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.. I think Israel is pretty much in control of Gaza above ground at this point so, civilians are no longer in much danger from the war. Other than the tunnel network, I don't know how much more they have to go with that. A slow process I suppose.
 
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JosephZ

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I think Israel is pretty much in control of Gaza above ground at this point so, civilians are no longer in much danger from the war.
I'm not sure where you get your news from, but Israel has control of less than 1/2 of the Gaza strip and doesn't even have control of all of Gaza City in the North. Hamas is also continuing to fire rockets into Israel.


Palestinian militants battled Israeli forces in devastated northern Gaza and launched a barrage of rockets from farther south on Tuesday in a show of force more than 100 days into Israel’s massive air and ground campaign against the tiny coastal enclave.

The fighting in the north, which was the first target of Israel’s offensive and where entire neighborhoods have been pulverized, showed how far Israel remains from achieving its goals of dismantling Hamas and returning scores of hostages captured in the Oct. 7 attack that sparked the war.

After weeks of heavy fighting across northern Gaza, Israeli officials said at the start of the year that they were scaling back operations there. The focus shifted to the southern city of Khan Younis and built-up refugee camps in central Gaza dating back to the 1948 war surrounding Israel’s creation.

But there too, they have encountered heavy resistance. The military said at least 25 rockets were fired into Israel on Tuesday, damaging a store in one of the strongest bombardments in more than a week. Israel’s Channel 12 television said the rockets were launched from the Bureij camp in central Gaza.



"It's clear that Hamas has control over many of the tunnels and can still surprise the Israeli soldiers with attacks."

Hamas also continues to launch missiles from northern Gaza — an area Israel has repeatedly claimed to have control of — and Hamas forces have demonstrated they remain capable of ambushing Israeli soldiers in the same region.

Israeli officials confirmed this week that Hamas's vast tunnel labyrinth under Gaza may be even larger than they first appreciated and much of that system remains intact.

Some of the tunnels are several stories high and large enough to drive vehicles through.

Crucially, some also appear to be buried deep enough to make them almost impervious to the enormous 900 kg U.S.-made bombs Israel has been dropping on Gaza's buildings in an attempt to destroy them.

"When this war is over, we will have two things still in place: No. 1, Hamas, and No. 2, the tunnel system, because the Israelis don't have the time nor the technology to deal with it,"


 
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ralliann

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I'm not sure where you get your news from, but Israel has control of less than 1/2 of the Gaza strip and doesn't even have control of all of Gaza City in the North. Hamas is also continuing to fire rockets into Israel.


Palestinian militants battled Israeli forces in devastated northern Gaza and launched a barrage of rockets from farther south on Tuesday in a show of force more than 100 days into Israel’s massive air and ground campaign against the tiny coastal enclave.

The fighting in the north, which was the first target of Israel’s offensive and where entire neighborhoods have been pulverized, showed how far Israel remains from achieving its goals of dismantling Hamas and returning scores of hostages captured in the Oct. 7 attack that sparked the war.

After weeks of heavy fighting across northern Gaza, Israeli officials said at the start of the year that they were scaling back operations there. The focus shifted to the southern city of Khan Younis and built-up refugee camps in central Gaza dating back to the 1948 war surrounding Israel’s creation.

But there too, they have encountered heavy resistance. The military said at least 25 rockets were fired into Israel on Tuesday, damaging a store in one of the strongest bombardments in more than a week. Israel’s Channel 12 television said the rockets were launched from the Bureij camp in central Gaza.



"It's clear that Hamas has control over many of the tunnels and can still surprise the Israeli soldiers with attacks."

Hamas also continues to launch missiles from northern Gaza — an area Israel has repeatedly claimed to have control of — and Hamas forces have demonstrated they remain capable of ambushing Israeli soldiers in the same region.


Israeli officials confirmed this week that Hamas's vast tunnel labyrinth under Gaza may be even larger than they first appreciated and much of that system remains intact.

Some of the tunnels are several stories high and large enough to drive vehicles through.

Crucially, some also appear to be buried deep enough to make them almost impervious to the enormous 900 kg U.S.-made bombs Israel has been dropping on Gaza's buildings in an attempt to destroy them.

"When this war is over, we will have two things still in place: No. 1, Hamas, and No. 2, the tunnel system, because the Israelis don't have the time nor the technology to deal with it,"


It is interesting every time Israel gives it's facts, it is followed by "without providing evidence" But all other accounts do not need any evidence.
Hamas should end this and surrender. Hamas is mainly pushed south now.
 
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o_mlly

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You can try to whitewash Islam all you like. It is a murderous and violent religion ...
Catholics know Islam as heresy and its founder as a heresiarch. Some go further and label Mohammed as the "Antichrist" (Saint John Damascene, Heresy of the Ishmaelites).
 
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Aussie Pete

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Catholics know Islam as heresy and its founder as a heresiarch. Some go further and label Mohammed as the "Antichrist" (Saint John Damascene, Heresy of the Ishmaelites).
It's a shame that their pope does not agree.
 
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Aussie Pete

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I don't know why these Christians are defending Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.. I think Israel is pretty much in control of Gaza above ground at this point so, civilians are no longer in much danger from the war. Other than the tunnel network, I don't know how much more they have to go with that. A slow process I suppose.
The tunnels are likely a work in progress for months if not years.
 
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Philip_B

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wing2000

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The Wall Street Journal reported American intelligence estimates confirmed that the Islamic Resistance Movement ( Hamas ) still possesses enough ammunition to strike Israel for several more months, and quoted Israeli officials as admitting that the goal of destroying Hamas during the war on Gaza “was not achieved,” despite Air and ground campaign and massive destruction. The newspaper quoted American officials as confirming that the Hamas movement is restructuring its police force in parts of Gaza City and the northern Gaza Strip, in addition to providing emergency services, stressing that the movement’s survival raises questions about the possibility of Israel achieving its goals in the war.

An Israeli military officer also confirmed to the newspaper that Hamas authorities linked to the Ministry of Interior had returned to Gaza City, including areas that the Israeli army said were under its control. Israeli officials acknowledged to the newspaper that Hamas fighters are adapting to the fighting, and military analysts said that the movement's new tactics are to fight in smaller groups and hide the ambushes it sets for Israeli forces, which shows its ability to withstand the destruction of large areas in the Gaza Strip.

Retired Army General Joseph Votel - who led US military operations in the Middle East - confirmed to the newspaper that Hamas is resilient and has shown that it is still capable of fighting despite its losses, as he put it.
 
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ralliann

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The Wall Street Journal reported American intelligence estimates confirmed that the Islamic Resistance Movement ( Hamas ) still possesses enough ammunition to strike Israel for several more months, and quoted Israeli officials as admitting that the goal of destroying Hamas during the war on Gaza “was not achieved,” despite Air and ground campaign and massive destruction. The newspaper quoted American officials as confirming that the Hamas movement is restructuring its police force in parts of Gaza City and the northern Gaza Strip, in addition to providing emergency services, stressing that the movement’s survival raises questions about the possibility of Israel achieving its goals in the war.

An Israeli military officer also confirmed to the newspaper that Hamas authorities linked to the Ministry of Interior had returned to Gaza City, including areas that the Israeli army said were under its control. Israeli officials acknowledged to the newspaper that Hamas fighters are adapting to the fighting, and military analysts said that the movement's new tactics are to fight in smaller groups and hide the ambushes it sets for Israeli forces, which shows its ability to withstand the destruction of large areas in the Gaza Strip.

Retired Army General Joseph Votel - who led US military operations in the Middle East - confirmed to the newspaper that Hamas is resilient and has shown that it is still capable of fighting despite its losses, as he put it.
I suspect it might be Americam meddling.
 
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