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Israel-Hamas Thread II

o_mlly

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Posting a picture of a ten year old girl with a gun was obviously done for a reason.
I have posited in this thread that innocent persons are all non-harming persons. Innocents are ethically and legally immune from direct and intentional attack by IDF soldiers. I believe that is a rational discrimination.

The age of the person who engages in doing harm and may be targeted or is not engaged in doing harm is irrelevant. What is relevant is how many innocent persons are being killed. Is the death of an innocent 50-year-old man less regrettable than the death of an innocent 15-year-old woman? Emotionally, yes; rationally, no. Both are innocent.

Those on this thread that argue mostly from their emotions have cited the horror that Gazan children are being killed by IDF soldiers. The reason for posting the picture was an effort to put reason back into play against such purely emotional arguments. Of course, a uniformed child pointing a lethal weapon is a combatant and a legitimate target.

If the claim is that the IDF is targeting non-harming persons (regardless of age) then such an act is a war crime. Show us the evidence. If the claim is that the number of innocents (regardless of age) being killed is disproportionate then that is a war crime. Show us the evidence.
 
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wing2000

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Aerial bombing is not going to win the war; we already know wars can't be won from the air (excepting nukes). This action must surely be followed by a ground campaign if Israel truly intends to wipe out Hamas. But a ground campaign would be extremely bloody and difficult without the aerial campaign first. Israel really is attempting to locate and destroy tunnel intersections and Hamas central locations, as well as Hamas personnel. They aren't simply indiscriminately dropping bombs everywhere, because that would not satisfy the hard military requirement before the ground campaign. They're simply not worrying so much about the collateral damage that they're failing to achieve the military objective.

Well yes, that is the crux of the problem. Destroying the Hamas' network of tunnels with2 million people living above them in an area roughly the size of Philedelphia. However, the point I was making is there is very high risk of radicalizing large numbers of that population. If an occupying military killed your family, what would your reaction be?
 
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RDKirk

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Exclusive: Nearly half of the Israeli munitions dropped on Gaza are imprecise ‘dumb bombs,’ US intelligence assessment finds


Unguided munitions are typically less precise and can pose a greater threat to civilians, especially in such a densely populated area like Gaza. The rate at which Israel is using the dumb bombs may be contributing to the soaring civilian death toll.

On Tuesday, President Joe Biden said Israel has been engaged in “indiscriminate bombing” in Gaza.

[E]xperts told CNN that if Israel is using unguided munitions at the rate the US believes they are, that undercuts the Israeli claim that they are trying to minimize civilian casualties.

“It’s bad enough to be using the weapons when they are precisely hitting their targets. It is a massive civilian harm problem if they do not have that accuracy, and if you can’t even give a benefit of the doubt that that the weapon is actually landing where the Israeli forces intended to,” Castner added.

Marc Garlasco, a former United Nations military analyst and war crimes investigator who served as chief of high value targeting on the Pentagon’s Joint Staff in 2003, said that using unguided munitions in a densely populated area like Gaza both greatly increases the chance that a target is missed and that civilians are harmed in the process.
I wouldn't call it "indiscriminate" inasmuch as they were no doubt actually trying to strike a particular military target. But it's a bad practice in a populated area. I recall a particular instance in the Persian Gulf war in which a B-52 dumb bomb strike was supposed to have hit a petroleum tank farm on one side of a river, but had been released either too early or too late and had flattened half of an apartment complex on the opposite side of the river.

The US still drops dumb bombs. The US will still even drop cluster munitions in populated areas...and I do call that indiscriminate. The US has even provided cluster munitions to Ukraine, and I think it's utterly stupid to drop cluster munitions in an area you hope to reclaim for yourself.

But a gross factor such as "half the bombs dropped" doesn't necessarily tell the story. What kind of bombs? What size of bombs? Where, actually, where they dropped? Were they dropped in the same area repeatedly to continue to deny it to the enemy? It would be easy to state "half the bombs dropped" without giving anywhere near an accurate picture of intent and effect.
 
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RDKirk

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I have posited in this thread that innocent persons are all non-harming persons. Innocents are ethically and legally immune from direct and intentional attack by IDF soldiers. I believe that is a rational discrimination.

The age of the person who engages in doing harm and may be targeted or is not engaged in doing harm is irrelevant. What is relevant is how many innocent persons are being killed. Is the death of an innocent 50-year-old man less regrettable than the death of an innocent 15-year-old woman? Emotionally, yes; rationally, no. Both are innocent.

Those on this thread that argue mostly from their emotions have cited the horror that Gazan children are being killed by IDF soldiers. The reason for posting the picture was an effort to put reason back into play against such purely emotional arguments. Of course, a uniformed child pointing a lethal weapon is a combatant and a legitimate target.

If the claim is that the IDF is targeting non-harming persons (regardless of age) then such an act is a war crime. Show us the evidence. If the claim is that the number of innocents (regardless of age) being killed is disproportionate then that is a war crime. Show us the evidence.
I generally agree, but under the Geneva Conventions, "number of innocents (regardless of age) being killed is disproportionate" is not per se a war crime.
 
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RDKirk

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Well yes, that is the crux of the problem. Destroying the Hamas' network of tunnels with2 million people living above them in an area roughly the size of Philedelphia. However, the point I was making is there is very high risk of radicalizing large numbers of that population. If an occupying military killed your family, what would your reaction be?
If you're already being attacked by a sworn enemy, radicalizing more of them is not a concern.
 
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wing2000

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If you're already being attacked, "radicalizing the enemy" is not a concern.

I disagree. The goal is to elminate Hamas' capability and defeat their ideology. Inflicting high civilian casulties is a recipe for increasing Hamas support in Gaza.
From a recent poll: Almost two-thirds of Gazan respondents - 64% - said a member of their family had been killed or injured in the war.

At some point, Israel is going to be stuck managing this population of 2.2 million people as no other government or enitity will.
 
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o_mlly

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I generally agree, but under the Geneva Conventions, "number of innocents (regardless of age) being killed is disproportionate" is not per se a war crime.
International Treaties, one of which is the Geneva Conventions, do require proportionality between innocent lives lost and military advantage, ie, destruction of the war waging resources of the unjust aggressor.

International humanitarian law (IHL) permits attacks on military targets that are likely to cause harm to civilians if two conditions are met:​
  • the foreseeable harm to civilians must be proportionate to the military advantage sought by the attack;
  • the choice of tactics and weapons — what is referred to in IHL as the “means and methods” — must also aim to minimise risk to civilians, even if it means putting more soldiers in harm’s way.
 
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RDKirk

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International Treaties, one of which is the Geneva Conventions, do require proportionality between innocent lives lost and military advantage, ie, destruction of the war waging resources of the unjust aggressor.

International humanitarian law (IHL) permits attacks on military targets that are likely to cause harm to civilians if two conditions are met:​
  • the foreseeable harm to civilians must be proportionate to the military advantage sought by the attack;
  • the choice of tactics and weapons — what is referred to in IHL as the “means and methods” — must also aim to minimise risk to civilians, even if it means putting more soldiers in harm’s way.
As I said before, "international law" is only as authoritative as the nations with international power agree to make it so.

The US has not signed on to Protocol 1 IHL.
 
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essentialsaltes

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If the claim is that the IDF is targeting non-harming persons (regardless of age) then such an act is a war crime.
As RDKirk mentions, the use of unguided bombs in a city is a 'bad practice'. I would use the word 'indiscriminate' -- Israel is not doing 'everything it can' to limit strikes to legitimate targets. Israel is not only using the calculus that a Hamas figure is worth enough to justify killing his family athome, but also that the neighbors can be considered collateral damage.

Show us the evidence. If the claim is that the number of innocents (regardless of age) being killed is disproportionate then that is a war crime. Show us the evidence.
LINK

Civilians make up 61% of Gaza deaths from airstrikes, Israeli study finds

Civilian proportion of deaths is higher than the average in all world conflicts in 20th century, data suggests

So civilian deaths in Gaza are disproportionately high compared to other conflicts in the past century. It doesn't seem likely that any particularly large military advantage is being achieved by flattening Gaza.

And as we've discussed before, the deaths of Israeli civilizans have essentially stopped. So the continuing deaths of Gazan civilians is increasingly disproportionate to the harm suffered by the other side.
 
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essentialsaltes

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As I said before, "international law" is only as authoritative as the nations with international power agree to make it so.

This is unfortunately true, and it's especially important to consider in the case of Israel and the Occupied Territories/Palestinians.

On 4 July 1967, the General Assembly adopted a Pakistani draft on the situation in Jerusalem. The Resolution was adopted by a vote of 99 in favour, none against, 20 abstentions and 3 absent.

The General Assembly
Deeply concerned at the situation prevailing in Jerusalem as a result of the measures taken by Israel to change the status of the City,
1. Considers that these measures are invalid;

1969 Bearing in mind the provisions of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949 1/ and the provisions of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights,

Recalling the humanitarian resolutions regarding the violations of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the territories occupied by Israel, especially Security Council resolutions 237 (1967) of 14 June 1967 and 259 (1968) of 27 September 1968, Commission on Human Rights resolutions 6 (XXIV) of 27 February 1968 2/ and 6 (XXV) of 4 March 1969,3/ and the relevant resolutions of the International Conference on Human Rights held at Teheran in 1968, the Economic and Social Council, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization and the World Health Organization,

3 - Condemns such policies and practices as collective and area punishment, the destruction of homes and the deportation of the inhabitants of the territories occupied by Israel;​

1971 - Calls once more upon the Government of Israel to take immediately and without any further delay effective steps for the return of the displaced inhabitants;

1973 Expresses its grave concern at the violation by Israel of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, as well as the other applicable international conventions and resolutions, in particular the following violations: [a through i]

1976 Condemns Israel's continued occupation of Arab territories in violation of the Charter of the United Nations, the principles of international law and repeated United Nations resolutions;

<obviously i could go on and on>

2016 Israel’s Settlements Have No Legal Validity, Constitute Flagrant Violation of International Law, Security Council Reaffirms​

The Security Council reaffirmed this afternoon that Israel’s establishment of settlements in Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, had no legal validity, constituting a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the vision of two States living side-by-side in peace and security, within internationally recognized borders.

--

All of which is to say, Israel has been flouting international law for decades with no significant penalty beyond a pile of sternly worded letters.
 
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RDKirk

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I disagree. The goal is to elminate Hamas' capability and defeat their ideology. Inflicting high civilian casulties is a recipe for increasing Hamas support in Gaza.
From a recent poll: Almost two-thirds of Gazan respondents - 64% - said a member of their family had been killed or injured in the war.

At some point, Israel is going to be stuck managing this population of 2.2 million people as no other government or enitity will.
There is no practical way, zero, no practical way to overcome Hamas without adversely affecting every single Palestinian in Gaza.
 
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RDKirk

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So civilian deaths in Gaza are disproportionately high compared to other conflicts in the past century.
I'm not sure about that. During the Bosnian war, there were periods that zero combatants were being killed compared to the number of civilians.
 
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o_mlly

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As I said before, "international law" is only as authoritative as the nations with international power agree to make it so.

The US has not signed on to Protocol 1 IHL.
The US is not at war. So, what is your point?
As RDKirk mentions, the use of unguided bombs in a city is a 'bad practice'. I would use the word 'indiscriminate' -- Israel is not doing 'everything it can' to limit strikes to legitimate targets. Israel is not only using the calculus that a Hamas figure is worth enough to justify killing his family athome, but also that the neighbors can be considered collateral damage.
If indiscriminate bombing is true, and if the targeting innocents is true then a "post-war" war crimes tribunal should engage charging both sides with the appropriate war crimes.
So civilian deaths in Gaza are disproportionately high compared to other conflicts in the past century. It doesn't seem likely that any particularly large military advantage is being achieved by flattening Gaza.
Not all civilian deaths are innocent deaths. If the Israel's express end objective is to "flatten" Gaza, indiscriminately killing innocent persons then they should be held accountable. If the Israeli end objective is to eliminate the war making resources of Hamas then proportion becomes the issue.
And as we've discussed before, the deaths of Israeli civilizans have essentially stopped
Do you not consider IDF soldiers who are waging a just war justly as innocent persons?

I am not an apologist for either side in this conflict.

The morality of justly killing another human being must always be based on principles of self-defense using no more force than necessary to repel the unjust aggressor. If the aggressor is using lethal methods then lethal methods of self-defense are permissible. If the aggression can reasonably be determined to be terminated then no further lethal action is morally justified. These are prudential judgments. Honest men may disagree on prudential judgements.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Do you not consider IDF soldiers who are waging a just war justly as innocent persons?

They are not civilians. They are in the thick of a hot war. As you say "If the aggressor is using lethal methods then lethal methods of self-defense are permissible."
 
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RDKirk

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The US is not at war. So, what is your point?
If the US is not willing to hold Israel accountable, then in this world of realpolitik, there is no way to hold Israel accountable.
 
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RDKirk

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As RDKirk mentions, the use of unguided bombs in a city is a 'bad practice'. I would use the word 'indiscriminate' -- Israel is not doing 'everything it can' to limit strikes to legitimate targets. Israel is not only using the calculus that a Hamas figure is worth enough to justify killing his family athome, but also that the neighbors can be considered collateral damage.
I don't know how Israel is calculating their targeting. None of us sees enough of that picture to discern that accurately.

I do know that with all the care I know we took, and that I personally took, during the Persian Gulf and Bosnian War, that we could not avoid accidents and some genuinely regretful-but-militarily necessary circumstances...and I won't say the same isn't happening within Israeli targeting cells.

I've mentioned a couple of those circumstances. Here is another that has personally haunted me until now: Check out this Wikipedia article on the Amiriyah Shelter bombing during the Persian Gulf War. This line -- "electronic signals from the locality had been reported as coming from the site"-- refers in part to me. The COMINT people told me what kind of signals they were intercepting, and I located the building that had the applicable types of antennas.

Now, this is not true: "There's not a single soul in the American military who believes that this was a command-and-control bunker." The people in the room I was in certainly did think it was command and control, because it was not merely a bunker. It was an office-type building that we believed had a bunker beneath it...rather like SAC Headquarters at Offutt AFB or the Pentagon itself.

But this part is true. "We thought it was a military personnel bunker. Any military bunker is assumed to have some civilians in it. We have attacked bunkers where we assume there are women and children who are members of the families of military personnel who are allowed in the military bunkers." There are more civilians than military working in the Pentagon. For Pete's sake, we have a childcare center in the Pentagon. Yet who would claim the Pentagon would not be a valid target if the US was engaged in war?

There is some obfuscatory wordplay going on here. Sources that intend to criminally implicate US targeting use the word "shelter." Those who intend to vindicate US targeting use the word "bunker." But in fact, it was a "building," not essentially different in outer appearance than many other nondescript office buildings.

But as I've stated before, the Geneva Conventions (and the US LOAC) does not prohibit such a facility from being a legal target.

On the morning after the bombing, I got up and, as usual, listened to Peter Arnett's reporting on CNN. I was shocked and aghast as I watched the video of the bodies of women and children being removed from the rubble. I spent that day going through all the reconnaissance imagery we had of the facility to see if there was any evidence I or anyone else could have seen to determine that the facility was being used to that extent as a shelter for families. I couldn't find that evidence from the data that we had available to us in that room...by cruel coincidence, the periods that families would have been entering and leaving the facility in large numbers (dawn and dusk) were the very periods of the day that our surveillance capabilities at the time were weakest.

I will also testify, though, that General Glosson is a detestable liar.
 
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o_mlly

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They are not civilians. They are in the thick of a hot war. As you say "If the aggressor is using lethal methods then lethal methods of self-defense are permissible."
If you categorize this conflict as an international war then the traditional just war theory gives both belligerent soldiers equal moral status. However, this conflict is not an international war as Hamas is not a state. International law institutionalizes a profound asymmetry between the war rights of state and nonstate fighters in asymmetrical wars.

The United States has refused to allow enemy fighters to claim that their violent activities are privileged, even when they engage in traditional, nonterrorist forms of armed combat. Thus, some of those charged by military commissions at Guantánamo Bay have been charged with such offenses as “murder by an unprivileged belligerent,”12 “attempted murder by an unprivileged belligerent,”13 or conspiracy to commit “murder by an unprivileged belligerent,”14 even though the accusations against them describe engagement in, or preparations for, conventional combat with members of U.S. or coalition armed forces.
9/Just-War-Theory-amp-the-Conduct-of-Asymmetric​
Murder is charged when an innocent person is unjustly killed by another. In this regard, I believe Israeli soldiers are privileged, Hamas soldiers are not.
 
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Vanellus

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There are reports that IDF soldiers carried out field executions (inc women and children) at a school west of Jabaliya

Israel turns schools into military centres, conducting field executions and mass killings [EN/AR] - occupied Palestinian territory.

Around 15 dead Palestinians’ decomposed bodies were found in Al-Falujah neighbourhood, west of the Jabalia camp. Based upon its initial investigation, Euro-Med Monitor confirmed that the individuals were subjected to field executions while being questioned by members of the Israeli army at the Shadia Abu Ghazaleh government school.
 
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o_mlly

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There are reports that IDF soldiers carried out field executions (inc women and children) at a school west of Jabaliya

Israel turns schools into military centres, conducting field executions and mass killings [EN/AR] - occupied Palestinian territory.
The objectivity of Euro-Med is questionable. However, if their reports are investigated and shown to be true then those Israeli soldiers should be prosecuted for war crimes.
 
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Bradskii

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Those on this thread that argue mostly from their emotions have cited the horror that Gazan children are being killed by IDF soldiers. The reason for posting the picture was an effort to put reason back into play against such purely emotional arguments. Of course, a uniformed child pointing a lethal weapon is a combatant and a legitimate target.
The original claim, and it's still being used, is that not all the innocent people being killed are that innocent. So the fact that children are being blown up and crushed to death in collapsing apartment blocks was brought up to show that there are innocent people being killed. They are a significant proportion of the death toll. Emotion doesn't change that. They cannot possibly be considered guilty in any way.

Except you immediately post a picture of a ten year old girl with a gun and link to hate camps run by Hamas. With the blazingly obvious implication that some of these children are not that innocent. I think you've set the bar so low that it's not likely to get any lower.
 
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