ISLAM WILL DOMINATE THE WORLD

[Armoured]

So if we don't want any terrorists getting through, that means we have to be very selective about who we let.

Where's the disagreement?

You're already very selective about who you get through.

But that's not what this is about. This is about people who attempt to smear all Muslims with the terrorist brush.

 

[Thursday]

You're already very selective about who you get through.

But that's not what this is about. This is about people who attempt to smear all Muslims with the terrorist brush.

Says you.

 

[Widlast]

Why can't you simply admit you over-stepped?

You made this statement:


This is a generalization - you are basically ascribing a characteristic to all, or at least most, Muslims.

You have been asked to support this statement - to provide some evidence that this rather alarming claim has evidence behind it.

And you are now effectively side-stepping your obligation to support your claim.

We are not talking about ISIS! You made a statement about Muslims (I added the bold):


Why can't you concede that you engaged in a little exaggeration here. I can understand that you think I am being contrary by pointing this out, but I think it is vital to avoid making negative characterizations of great swaths of humanity that are not supported by at least some evidence.

When ISIS first raised it's ugly head a few journalists got together and went to a few "moderate" Mosques and asked the folks there how they felt about ISIS's interpretation of Islamic law and about ISIS in general.
The results were practically unanimous, the "moderate" Moslems were all in favor of ISIS killing people for supposed "breaches of Sharia law", the only reservations they had was that ISIS was rather barbaric and public about their murders and that made Islam "look bad".
Do a little net hunting, you'll find plenty about how Moslems view the world and their place in it.
Don't be lazy, I will not do the work for you.

 

[lben]

Do you have any actual evidence as to the prevalence with which this belief is held in the general population?

Just look at the former Christian nations that are now islamic nightmares. Christians are executed (gruesomely) every day. All you have to do is watch the news for a few minutes.

 

[expos4ever]

Just look at the former Christian nations that are now islamic nightmares. Christians are executed (gruesomely) every day. All you have to do is watch the news for a few minutes.

"Watching the news" is certainly not a reliable means to gather information; at best it a source of anecdotal information which is of no value in responsibly support a claim.

 

[lben]

What percentage of Muslims support violence to advance their faith, in your opinion?

IT is estimated that 10-70% support the implementation of sharia law. Sharia law is what gives them the "right" to butcher anyone who disagrees with them.

There are 1.7 billion moslems in the world. Even at 5% the number is a staggering 50,000,000! That's a lot of suicide bombers and ISIS fighters.

 

[expos4ever]

I can see the influence of the Muslim and atheist information campaign in your comments.

Please explain precisely how you conclude this - good luck.

The Qur'an speaks of violence but the Bible does too, so who are we to judge? Did I get the overall point correct?

More needs to be added. I do not know the Qu'ran but I will assume it represents Allah / Muhammed as endorsing violence. My point is that our Bible has the same picture, at least in the Old Testament - God actively promotes genocide and other acts a modern western person would find appallingly cruel and unjust.

Let's examine.

First point I would make is either the Qur'an is truth or the Bible is truth. They both cannot be truthful.

No, there is another alternative (of course) - they are both contaminated with error to some degree.

So either Islam is the truth or Christianity is the truth. Can't be both.

Again, this is clearly not correct logic.

I will post more.

 

[redleghunter]

More needs to be added. I do not know the Qu'ran but I will assume it represents Allah / Muhammed as endorsing violence. My point is that our Bible has the same picture, at least in the Old Testament - God actively promotes genocide and other acts a modern western person would find appallingly cruel and unjust.

Unjust by whose standards?

 

[expos4ever]

With that first point let's examine your overall point. That is God commands wars and executions in the OT Mosaic theocratic covenant. ..... Limited in scope and location.

Now the Qur'an commands infidels who do not submit to Islam be killed. We see that in action since the 7th century AD. Still going on. Not good...total disaster.

This is like arguing that a person who slaughtered one family somehow has the moral high ground over someone who slaughtered 10. Christians frequently argue that "God does not change". Well, if you promote genocide once, it is clearly "in your character" to do it again. I really do not see your argument here.

Ok here's the difference. We are Christians. The theocratic nation of Israel and Judah are gone. Temple destroyed in 70AD. All gone for now. Here's the clincher. Jesus never commanded His followers to kill, wage war or stone people to death for their sins. Never ever...

I am very familiar with the changes Jesus institutes and it is hardly the point! If at any time in history "our" (Christian) God promoted genocide, etc. we have certainly forfeited the moral high ground in this matter unless, of course, we do what many Christians do in practice if not in principle - reject the accounts of divinely sanctioned genocide as effectively distortions of the truth. You are effectively arguing that the since Old Testament stuff is locked in the past, we are now free to criticize another religion which systemically (so the claim goes) promotes violence.

Well, that does not work if you also want to claim that the Christian God never changes His character.

 

[expos4ever]

It's not a debate. It's a discussion.

Nice try - if you are going to make claims about the way things are, you have the responsibility to back them up. Especially if those claims impugn the character of an entire block of people.

 

[redleghunter]

This is like arguing that a person who slaughtered one family somehow has the moral high ground over someone who slaughtered 10. Christians frequently argue that "God does not change". Well, if you promote genocide once, it is clearly "in your character" to do it again. I really do not see your argument here.

Remember we were taking the simplistic argument put forth that any ounce of violence impeaches either book. I took the simplistic argument for itself and showed how this is ill informed. On the one hand we have a religious book going in a peaceful direction, on the other a religious book starting out peaceful and going violent. Clear cut, bold colors and thick lines.

Now you want a theological argument on the immutability of YHWH (God), which is fine and we can do so on the theology threads. However, the simplistic argument we constantly hear trying to compare divergent lines is invalid when you simply unpack it. I unpacked it and showed that when comparing the Bible to the Quran, the Quran is going in the wrong direction as we put both books in the chronological order. That is the TEACHINGS.

If you want to explore the 'character' of YHWH what premise or moral code are you going to hold to Him?

I am very familiar with the changes Jesus institutes and it is hardly the point! If at any time in history "our" (Christian) God promoted genocide, etc. we have certainly forfeited the moral high ground in this matter unless, of course, we do what many Christians do in practice if not in principle - reject the accounts of divinely sanctioned genocide as effectively distortions of the truth. You are effectively arguing that the since Old Testament stuff is locked in the past, we are now free to criticize another religion which systemically (so the claim goes) promotes violence.

It seems you want to blame God for judging nations He gave 400 years to turn from their sins. How as a Christian can you judge the actions of the uncreated Creator? Again another discussion entirely. One of which goes well beyond the "any violence impeached" simplistic model used often on the internet.

Well, that does not work if you also want to claim that the Christian God never changes His character.

I believe you are not fully representing the definition of Immutability. To apologize for YHWH's actions is quite blasphemous in my estimation. It also denies God's omniscience and Holiness.

If I were to ask you why those Canaanite nations were destroyed what would be your response?

If I were to ask you what was the purpose of Muhammad spreading Islam by the sword what would be your response?

 

[TG MD]

Nice try - if you are going to make claims about the way things are, you have the responsibility to back them up. Especially if those claims impugn the character of an entire block of people.

God has an answer for Islam, and it wont be long. I wont explain it now but just remember this palindromic number, 91119. You will know what it means when it happens. And when it happens, everyone will know who God is and Islam as a religion will be finished. God turns everything around. Jesus' death on the cross...greatest disaster ever, until 3 days later... greatest triumph ever.
Some believe that Islam is the anti-Christ. I do not believe that. I believe that Islam is a type of antichrist.
1 John 2:22
And who is a liar? Anyone who says that Jesus is not the Christ. Anyone who denies the Father and the Son is an antichrist.

91119.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Don't be lazy, I will not do the work for you.

I will advance this video for the purpose of those that want to hear from the Islamist them selves and what they have to say.
Pay attention to the simple answer given by the person on the far right of the podium.

 

[Widlast]

Enough of this! This ridiculous "I-make-a-silly-claim-and-ask-you-to-find-the-evidence-to-support-my-claim" would not be permitted if the moderators had the time to enforce reasonable rules of "debate".,

This is simply not how responsible debate goes - if you make a claim, especially an implausible one like the one you made, it is not my job to find the evidence!

How can you possibly not know this?

You just don't have the guts to admit you are wrong. Well, you are in good company - almost no one does

Here ya go.
Muslim Opinion Polls

 

[Widlast]

I will advance this video for the purpose of those that want to hear from the Islamist them selves and what they have to say.
Pay attention to the simple answer given by the person on the far right of the podium.
Sorry , replied to wrong person.

 

[expos4ever]

Here ya go.
Muslim Opinion Polls

Thanks. My point was always simply that claims need to be supported. Having scanned the link, the findings are indeed concerning, at least on a superficial reading. But let's remember what you posted:

Moslems say "do what I tell you to do or I will chop your head off".

While there are things to worry about in those polls, I see nothing there that really comes close to substantiating what you wrote. And surely you realize how needlessly inflammatory such a statement is. If the data support your views that Islam is a "threat", surely you can make your case without resorting to such over-the-top language that, arguably, only makes matters worse.

 

[expos4ever]

Here ya go.
Muslim Opinion Polls

Let me be clear: I do not believe I ever denied that there is a "problem" with the content of the doctrine and beliefs that make up Islam. I suspect there probably is but only because I defer to the opinion of a number of experts whose assessments I trust (example: Sam Harris).

I do not have the time to independently assess the credibility of all the polls you cited in that link. However, I suggest it is clear that we need to be very careful in assessing information we read "on the internet". Much of it is misleading and downright wrong.

Again, I think there is indeed a reason to be concerned. But we need to be even-handed and recognize there are reasons to be concerned about the negative impact of beliefs that can be characterized as "Christian". On this very forum, we see all manner of profoundly silly and irrational views put forward by people who identify themselves as Christians. Climate change, for example. While I concede that I do not have data to support this, I would speculate that the percentage of evangelicals in the USA who deny human agency in global warming is greater than in the general population. I have no idea how Muslims differ from the general population re their views on this matter.

 

[expos4ever]

Here is the problem, as I see it, with raising a hue and cry about Islam:

1. I take it as self-evident that irrational fear of "the other" is a rampant problem in our world. Racism and xenophobia infest our world.

2. You have a President - and I shudder to think how the next four years will unfold - who, several years ago, very deliberately, dishonestly, and with clear mean-spirited intent, promoted the idea that President Obama was "not one of us". And, shockingly to me, many of you voted for him!

3. So it is very easy to believe that many who rise up to call for a ban on Muslim immigration have not studied what Islam actually teaches, have not investigated what the polls say about what Muslims actually believe, etc. In short, they have not done their homework and simply wish to keep "those people" out. Note that I am not saying there is not a problem with what Islam teaches or what Muslims believe; I am simply saying that there is every reason to believe most who support a ban could not offer a rational reason for their support of the ban.

More later.

 

[more4less]

I guess that we has been closing our ears to the truth.

 

[ken777]

People are concerned because of the increasing number of immigrants coming from Muslim-majority countries. They are also concerned because around the world there have been many Islamic terrorist attacks and many more offences (planning, inciting, etc). We can be pretty sure that the number of actual attacks only represents the tip of the iceberg.

Given this situation, a government would be negligent & even criminal to ignore what is happening.

Some are deliberately misrepresenting Trump's EO as a "Muslim ban" when it is neither Muslim only, nor is it a ban but a limited pause.

Those arguing that Trump's "ban" will incite hatred & violence by some Muslims are simply proving his point that there are some who are willing to engage in aggression against Western democracies.