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Islam doesn't condone terror

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plenary

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I think liar may be harsh language. Since we cannot know if he genuinely believed what he said, saying he was wrong or mistaken seems to be a more appropriate statement.
Historic (non-Christian) writings along with the Bible and all of the modern prophetic texts validate the death of Jesus on the Cross... Along comes Muhammad who claims otherwise....

He shouldn't have touched the gospel. It is his own fault, when people call him a liar...

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever, to believe that Muhammad was a prophet...

And if critisism is a reason to murder people, than the doctrine is extremely wretched...
 
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b&wpac7

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Historic (non-Christian) writings along with the Bible and all of the modern prophetic texts validate the death of Jesus on the Cross... Along comes Muhammad who claims otherwise....

He shouldn't have touched the gospel. It is his own fault, when people call him a liar...

Neither make him a liar. If you believe what you are saying, it isn't lying. Lying is knowingly not telling the truth. One can be mistaken or delusional and they are not liars.
 
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salida

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It depends on the muslim. If one agrees with sharia and terror and some do-they believe in murder.

http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2007/06/know-koran.html

The bad news is that when passages written later in Muhammad's life contradict passages written earlier, the later one overwrites the earlier one. When reading this version in the order it was written, you can clearly see the passages get more and more violent and intolerant as Muhammad got older and more politically powerful.

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/12/the-caliphate
http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/02/radical_islam_or_mainstream_is.html

Sleeper Cells in the U.S.
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.8528,css.print/pub_detail.asp

http://www.persecution.org/2011/01/25/ethiopian-muslims-warn-christians-to-convert-leave-city-or-face-death/

Info on Islamic fascism)
http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/

Sharia - the deadly threat to America
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Perspectives/Default.aspx?id=1230498

These muslims below I believe are peaceful:

******
American Islamic Forum for Democracy, August 15, 2010
http://www.marklevinshow.com/goout.asp?u=http://www.aifdemocracy.org/news.php?id=6131
 
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plenary

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Neither make him a liar. If you believe what you are saying, it isn't lying. Lying is knowingly not telling the truth. One can be mistaken or delusional and they are not liars.
That he was delusional, that is probable... (delusion of grandeur)...

But he knew all to well, that he wasn't a prophet.. And as such, he was a liar...

But I am not the only one accusing Muhammad of lying, Abu Talib's daughter said the same thing:

Ishaq:184 "Umm, Abu Talib's daughter, said: "The Apostle went on no journey except while he was in my house. He slept in my home that night after he prayed the final night prayer. A little before dawn he woke us, saying, 'O Umm, I went to Jerusalem.' He got up to go out and I grabbed hold of his robe and laid bare his belly. I pleaded, 'O Muhammad, don't tell the people about this for they will know you are lying and will mock you.' He said, 'By Allah, I will tell them.' I told a n egress slave of mine, 'Follow him and listen.'"

As the story spread, Muhammad’s fledgling cadre of followers abandoned him. The disillusionment was confirmed by Katib al Wackidi, "Upon hearing this many became renegades who had prayed and joined Islam." The Sira says: Ishaq:183 "Many Muslims gave up their faith. Some went to Abu Bakr and said, 'What do you think of your friend now? He alleges that he went to Jerusalem last night and prayed there and came back to Mecca.' Bakr said that they were lying about the Apostle. But they told him that he was in the mosque at this very moment telling the Quraysh about it. Bakr said, 'If he says so then it must be true. I believe him. And that is more extraordinary than his story at which you boggle.' Then Allah sent down a Qur'an surah concerning those who left Islam for this reason: 'We made the vision which we showed you only, a test for men. We put them in fear, but it only adds to their heinous error.'" [Qur'an 13:33] Once again, Muhammad flips out and it's everyone's fault but his own. And while it's not surprising anymore, the 13th surah was handed down in Medina, not Mecca.

What's surprising is that the "Thunder" surah actually rebukes Muhammad’s claim of a miraculous journey. After saying, Qur'an 76:4 "Those who deny will wear collars and chains, yokes (of servitude) tying their hands to their necks; they will be the inmates of Hell.... They will witness Our (many) exemplary punishments! Verily, your Lord is severe in retribution," we are told that Muhammad was unable to perform a miracle. Qur'an 13:7 "The unbelievers say, 'Why was no sign or miracle sent down to him by his Lord.' But you are only the bearer of bad news - of warnings." The admission is repeated: Qur'an 13:27 "The unbelievers say, 'How is it that no sign miracle was sent down to him by his Lord.' Say, 'God leads whosoever He wills astray.'" There were deceptions but no miracles.
 
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salida

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***********jihad in numbers
http://dttj.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-stop-muslim-immigration.html

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country it will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone.
Note throughout the exponential scale of Islamic influence as the percentage of Muslim population per country increases.
1.0-2.0%
United States, Australia, Canada, China, Italy, Norway

At 2% and 3% they [Muslims] begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs."
2.0-4.0%

Denmark,Germany,United Kingdom,Spain,Italy
From 5% on they [Muslims] exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. They will push for the introduction of halal ("clean" by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves - along with threats for failure to comply (United States).
5.0-9.0%

France,Philippines,Sweden,Switzerland,The Netherlands,Trinidad & Tobago
At this point, they [Muslims] will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, or Islamic law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris - car burning). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam, Denmark - Mohammed cartoons, murder of Theo van Gogh).
10.0-15.0%

Guyana,India,Israel,Kenya,Russia
The one anomaly in this set of statistics is Israel, which has not experienced uprisings and threats of violence. Its Arab or Muslim population enjoys equal political rights with Jewish Israelis. The suicide bombings and rocket attacks that have killed hundreds have been perpetrated by outsiders.

After reaching 20% [of a population] expect hair-trigger rioting, Jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:
Ethiopia: 32.8

After 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:
40.0-60.0%
Bosnia,Chad,Lebanon
From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and jizya, the tax placed on [conquered] infidels:

60-80%
Albania, Malaysia, Qatar, Sudan
After 80%, expect state-run ethnic cleansing and genocide:"
  
80-99%
Bangladesh, Egypt, Gaza, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan, Palestine, Syria, Tajikistan,
Turkey, United Arab Emirates

I question the inclusion of "Palestine" in this set. "Palestine" simply means space occupied by stateless "Palestinians" in Gaza and the West Bank, and is the name of the state which Islamists wish to replace Israel, once it is destroyed. Turkey, after decades of having a secular, non-religious government, is beginning to turn "religious," and seems to be yearning for the kind of Muslim government that cleansed the country in 1915 of non-Muslim Armenians in a genocide that predates the Holocaust.
"100% will usher in the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam' - the Islamic House of Peace' [more correctly, dar-al-Islam, or Land of Islam]. There is supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim."
99.9-100%
Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia,Yemen

 
 
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JJWhite

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I don't insult him, but I have a clear disbelief. At best, I certainly don't think he was a prophet to Israel, my people. At worst, he was a false prophet. How am I viewed?

You're viewed as a Jew who has rejected his message, and that's your business... between you and God.

You have rights upon me as a human.... even more as the peace-loving human you are.

You have rights upon me as my neighbor.. online, you are my online 'neighbor'... if we worked together, you'd be my work 'neighbor' and if you lived beside my home, you'd be my physical neighbor... the closer you are, the more right you deserve, regardless of your religion. 'Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day must honor his neighbor." (Bukhari)

Had you been my blood relative, you would even have more right upon me... again, regardless of your religion. The closer the relative, the more right.

Had you been Muslim, the kinship of faith would be another factor giving you even more right upon me.

----------

Before I mentioned the hadith where the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his wife, 'Aa'ishah, were walking in the streets of Madinah, when a group of Jews who had animosity towards him said, 'As-Saamu 'alaikum' (which means 'death be upon you') instead of 'As-Salaamu 'alaikum' (peace be upon you). He replied, 'and upon you'. 'Aa'ishah got mad and started saying 'May God curse you' to the Jews when the Prophet instructed her that that wasn't right. She asked him.. But didn't you hear what they just said to you?! And he replied that he had heard, and he asked her.. Didn't you hear what I said to them? I said, 'And upon you'. Whatever prayer they meant for him, he returned, and that was the end of it. They didn't deserve a death sentence for it, nor any other kind of material punishment. Mind you, that many Jews of Madinah are described in our texts as knowing that he was a prophet that they should follow yet refused knowingly due to racial pride. If that were the case of this group of people who said that, that would even make them very different than Jews like you who appear to be very honest in their quest for knowledge and accepting what is true.

--------

Other reports of 'insults' that were punished during Muhammad's time (that have been posted on these forums) are very different. They were people who were trying to incite violence with their words. They were actively at war with the state.

-------

No punishments can be issued or carried out by other than the state. Everything has to go through the court system. People will be appointed to talk to the person, show them the other viewpoint, the person's motives judged to the best that the judge can tell... sure a judge COULD abuse the system, but that's wrong, and such a judge will have to answer before God. Not a good situation to be in.

--------

Non-Muslims living in an Islamic State could have their own court systems. They did not have to go to the Islamic courts. Only if they committed a crime against a Muslim (killed a Muslim, stole from a Muslim, etc.) would they be required to go through the Muslim court system.

------

Remember that an Islamic State is a theocracy. Publicly inciting violence against the state by attacking God, Islam, or Prophet Muhammad would not be allowed. Apostasy is viewed as treason, and that is why it is assigned the death sentence. It's not about what the person wants to believe. That's their call.

-----

An Islamic State would have to take good care of all of its residents. Yes, historically there has been some forms of sanctioned discrimination against non-Muslim citizens of the Islamic State. (I'm talking about different taxes, acceptance into certain offices, and such things.) In the US, a resident does not get the same rights as a citizen. I am a US citizen, but had I not met my 5 year residency requirements, any of my children born 5 minutes on the other side of the border would not have been able to get the same rights as a child I gave birth to on this side of the border. One could label that discrimination, but it is accepted, because one kid is a citizen and the other is not. Yes, an Islamic State made being a Muslim slightly more convenient. You could still be a happy, well-taken care of resident enjoying all of the benefits of living in a secure, well-managed state (which is what it's also supposed to look like) as a non-Muslim, but there would always exist those incentives to become Muslim should you chose to be. That's the way it was, and I don't see a problem with it, especially considering that we believe that becoming a Muslim will benefit the person himself/herself more than anyone else.

-------

How such things would apply in today's political world, I don't know... but we have to take care of all people.

------

You cannot just go out and kill someone based on a fatwa given by someone. The offender would have to go through the complete legal system first.

-----

All of this is hypothetical, since none of us live in an Islamic State.

-----

Before anyone says anything, do note that I do not want to transform the US into an Islamic State. That would be low.. to live in a country and reap the benefits of living in it and then betray it and attempt to destroy it. That's sick and very un-Islamic.

-----

There's a lot more that can be said about this.

-----

I wish my husband had the time to sit with me some time so that I could get references and he could alert me to important things I may be missing out on. Anyway.. he's busy helping Muslims, a lot of whom are very ignorant about our religion and some of whom are REALLY messed up.

These are just some points that I've generally learned from all my teachers though.
 
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Satt

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***********jihad in numbers
http://dttj.blogspot.com/2010/07/why-stop-muslim-immigration.html

As long as the Muslim population remains around 1% of any given country it will be regarded as a peace-loving minority and not as a threat to anyone.
Note throughout the exponential scale of Islamic influence as the percentage of Muslim population per country increases.
1.0-2.0%
United States, Australia, Canada, China, Italy, Norway

At 2% and 3% they [Muslims] begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs."
2.0-4.0%

Denmark,Germany,United Kingdom,Spain,Italy
From 5% on they [Muslims] exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. They will push for the introduction of halal ("clean" by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature it on their shelves - along with threats for failure to comply (United States).
5.0-9.0%

France,Philippines,Sweden,Switzerland,The Netherlands,Trinidad & Tobago
At this point, they [Muslims] will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves under Sharia, or Islamic law. The ultimate goal of Islam is not to convert the world but to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims reach 10% of the population, they will increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions (Paris - car burning). Any non-Muslim action that offends Islam will result in uprisings and threats (Amsterdam, Denmark - Mohammed cartoons, murder of Theo van Gogh).
10.0-15.0%

Guyana,India,Israel,Kenya,Russia
The one anomaly in this set of statistics is Israel, which has not experienced uprisings and threats of violence. Its Arab or Muslim population enjoys equal political rights with Jewish Israelis. The suicide bombings and rocket attacks that have killed hundreds have been perpetrated by outsiders.

After reaching 20% [of a population] expect hair-trigger rioting, Jihad militia formations, sporadic killings and church and synagogue burning:
Ethiopia: 32.8

After 40% you will find widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks and ongoing militia warfare:
40.0-60.0%
Bosnia,Chad,Lebanon
From 60% you may expect unfettered persecution of non-believers and other religions, sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon and jizya, the tax placed on [conquered] infidels:

60-80%
Albania, Malaysia, Qatar, Sudan
After 80%, expect state-run ethnic cleansing and genocide:"
  
80-99%
Bangladesh, Egypt, Gaza, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Morocco, Pakistan, Palestine, Syria, Tajikistan,
Turkey, United Arab Emirates

I question the inclusion of "Palestine" in this set. "Palestine" simply means space occupied by stateless "Palestinians" in Gaza and the West Bank, and is the name of the state which Islamists wish to replace Israel, once it is destroyed. Turkey, after decades of having a secular, non-religious government, is beginning to turn "religious," and seems to be yearning for the kind of Muslim government that cleansed the country in 1915 of non-Muslim Armenians in a genocide that predates the Holocaust.
"100% will usher in the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam' - the Islamic House of Peace' [more correctly, dar-al-Islam, or Land of Islam]. There is supposed to be peace because everybody is a Muslim."
99.9-100%
Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Somalia,Yemen

 

Wow, great post. Thanks!!! :thumbsup:
 
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plenary

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Wow, great post. Thanks!!!
thumbsup.gif
x2...

Yeah, give it up for "the religion of peace".....

Originally Posted by plenary
But he knew all to well, that he wasn't a prophet.. And as such, he was a liar...
Alright, I call.

Lay your cards on the table: How do you know this?
Except when one is completely insane, the person knows whether or he tells the truth or not... Don't you think, that one a man says he is a prophet, when he is not (because he knew nothing about the workings of the gift of prophecy), that the man doesn't know that he is lying??

Muhammad knew what he wanted, Power, worldly gain and women... And as such he was not completely insane... Therefore he made the choice to pretend to be a prophet...

Bukhari:V7B67N427 "The Prophet said, 'If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.'"
Qur'an 66:2 "Allah has already sanctioned for you the dissolution of your vows."
Qur'an 5:41 "Whomever Allah wants to deceive you cannot help. Allah does not want them to know the truth because he intends to disgrace them and then torture them."
 
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b&wpac7

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Except when one is completely insane, the person knows whether or he tells the truth or not... Don't you think, that one a man says he is a prophet, when he is not (because he knew nothing about the workings of the gift of prophecy), that the man doesn't know that he is lying?

If I grant you that Jesus said what is claimed he said, I would not call him a liar, only misguided. I see no reason not to extend to Muhammad the same.
 
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plenary

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That's your good right... But the sayings of Muhammad and Jesus are opposed....

Bukhari:V7B67N427 "The Prophet said, 'If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.'"

Jacob 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
 
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Montalban

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Like many Christian priests, eh?

The problem with your posts is that they show bias insofar as I've given you ample opportunity to have an evidence-based discussion and you choose not to do that but offer only one-liner attacks on Christianity.

I invite you again to deal with evidence I've presented.
 
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Montalban

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No because that isn’t as grave a crime in Islam as insulting the Prophet. And that act which you mention (robbery) already has its prescribed punishment in Islam and its not death
Actually that's not I said.

You said it's murder to kill someone without reason.

So I said I have a reason, taking your money. Therefore it's not murder.
It’s the Judge who passes the sentence. Whoever carries out the actual punishment is one who is aware of how to carry out the punishment
Yes, I understood that. You originally said the judge passes sentence
 
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plenary

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Originally Posted by simonpeter
Like many Christian priests, eh?
Oh, but he has a point, that the priests who did this, are also despicable.. And they will have a double reward for their actions.
They are part of the reason, why the world does not know whether Christianity is a blessing or a curse...
 
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Montalban

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Oh, but he has a point, that the priests who did this, are also despicable.. And they will have a double reward for their actions.
They are part of the reason, why the world does not know whether Christianity is a blessing or a curse...

Absolutely. Islam's ideal man had relations with a 9 year old girl.

And as to lying, you can find Moslems posting (but posing as Christians) in many places.
 
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Matthew 13

14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.
 
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JJWhite

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Matthew 13

14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

“‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’

16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.

Actually, I was quoting from some ahadeeth that relate what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said when he was severely injured during the Battle of Uhud and blood was running down his face (reported in Bukhari and Ibn Hibbaan and others)... almost the same words as what are recorded in Luke 23:34. I thought I'd make the same prayer. God bless His prophets and messengers.
 
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b&wpac7

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That's your good right... But the sayings of Muhammad and Jesus are opposed....
Fair enough. I simply think in the interest of peace it would be best to avoid direct insults. Language is an incredibly powerful tool and I think it best to work together. I disagree with Muhammad as well, I don't think he was a prophet, but I won't incite people by saying he was a liar. I just think it's bad form.
Jacob 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

I assume you mean James 5:12. Jacob is from the Book of Mormon and doesn't say that. ;)
 
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