Islam doesn't condone terror

[plenary]

You are giving verses in the dark. I don't know if it means what you are putting there or if there is context surrounding it that allowed it to make more sense. I am not saying one way or the other because I do not know.

I just think there are better ways to go about showing your disagreement than loaded terms and what seems to be the desire to incite anger. It breaks down communication. You say you don't think peace is possible. But what are you doing to help that process? If you are doing nothing, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I am not desiring to incite anger, I just want direct conversation... And if one can signify that I am wrong in my assumptions, please do...

But I am not going to feign, that everything is dandy, because with almost all terrorist acts, Islam is involved...

There are even people, who claim Islam to be the "religion of peace", well, I am not going to beat around the bush...

And it is the question if all wars are preventable... I know that God is able to prevent, but history shows many bloody wars.. And I am not convinced that there will not be other wars...

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Sometimes, it seems, wars are not preventable... It's just like it is, i guess..

 

[b&wpac7]

Well, I have done my best. I can do no more.

 

[JJWhite]

My perspective:

Bukhari:V7B67N427 "The Prophet said, 'If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath.'"

Hypothetical situation:

I inherit $10,000. I make a vow (nadhr, in Arabic.. I think nidre, in Hebrew) that I will use that money to make a 'Umrah to Makkah this year, having full intention to do so.

Suddenly, someone I know who is not very well off with no insurance or way of getting money is diagnosed with a life-threatening condition. The doctors speculate that the only chance that person has is to undergo a $25,000 surgical operation. Collecting that kind of money is difficult, and I figure that if I put in my $10,000 that I was going to use to make the trip to Makkah it'll help save that person's life.

What do I do? Forget about the person and use my money to make the trip because I made that vow... or expiate my vow (by feeding ten poor people or clothing them), knowing that God knows my intentions, and give the money towards the surgery instead. I would probably do the latter.

Bukhari:V6B60N662 "Allah's Apostle said, 'Some eloquent speech is as effective as magic.'"

Aren't words powerful in bringing about change? That's just a statement of reality.

Y'know, I never knew that that was a hadith even (though I'd heard the quote before and even mentioned it in the Magick thread a long time ago)...let alone did I know it was in Bukhari. Thanks for sharing that info with me! I just looked it up, and I absolutely LOVE the chapter under which Al-Bukhari categorized this hadith. He put it under the chapter of 'medicine'. That's beautiful to me. A positive and encouraging word could possibly work 'magic' and help a sick person more than any other kind of treatment he/she receives.

Ishaq:567 "Muhammad informed Umar [the second Caliph], and he called the Prophet a liar."

Putting aside the fact that I don't trust anything Ishaq says unless it's authenticated by hadith scholars, let's say that statement's true.

'He' is ambiguous. I don't know the context of that statement or who said what.

Let's say it was 'Umar who had said that Prophet Muhammad was a liar. If he did, he could have said something like that before embracing Islam. After all, 'Umar was walking on his way to where Muhammad (pbuh) had gathered with his companions to chop his head off at one point.

 

[JJWhite]

You are giving verses in the dark.

Just a side note for your own information... if you see a name like 'Bukhari' or any other after a quote.. that would refer to the person who recorded the quote/narration. It would never be a 'verse'.

 

[plenary]

Well, I have done my best. I can do no more.

I will try to soften my expressions....

And I am convinced that we as human beings can also make a difference, most importantly when we trust in the Lord God... But the past (and present) wars are a constant reminder of the evil what is in human actions...

 

[b&wpac7]

And I am convinced that we as human beings can also make a difference, most importantly when we trust in the Lord God... But the past (and present) wars are a constant reminder of the evil what is in human actions...

Indeed they are. I also see those that seek peace as a constant reminder of the good that is in human actions.

 

[plenary]

Hypothetical situation:

I inherit $10,000. I make a vow (nadhr, in Arabic.. I think nidre, in Hebrew) that I will use that money to make a 'Umrah to Makkah this year, having full intention to do so.

Suddenly, someone I know who is not very well off with no insurance or way of getting money is diagnosed with a life-threatening condition. The doctors speculate that the only chance that person has is to undergo a $25,000 surgical operation. Collecting that kind of money is difficult, and I figure that if I put in my $10,000 that I was going to use to make the trip to Makkah it'll help save that person's life.

What do I do? Forget about the person and use my money to make the trip because I made that vow... or expiate my vow (by feeding ten poor people or clothing them), knowing that God knows my intentions, and give the money towards the surgery instead. I would probably do the latter.

You shouldn't vow... Like Christ has taught... Than you automatically don't have that problem.

 

[b&wpac7]

You shouldn't vow... Like Christ has taught... Than you automatically don't have that problem.

Numbers 30:3 says:

3. If a man makes a vow to the Lord or makes an oath to prohibit himself, he shall not violate his word; according to whatever came out of his mouth, he shall do.

I do know that many rabbis will tell people not to take vows to God because, as this verse shows, when you do so you are bound to what you say. It isn't a prohibited practice in Judaism, otherwise the Law would say "Do not...".

 

[JJWhite]

You shouldn't vow... Like Christ has taught... Than you automatically don't have that problem.

There are different kinds of vows.

One can just say.. I promise to do this for you God. That's okay. Just once you make the promise, you have to keep it.

One could also say something like, I promise to give $100,000 in charity God, if you cure my son from this disease. That would be permissible, but bad, and should be avoided. When Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said that only a miser would make a 'nadhr'/vow, he was referring to this type, and God knows best.

I, personally, have never made a 'vow'. I make resolutions, but I've never said, 'I promise' to do this... but it's permissible.

And there are oaths too...

"And do not make your oath by Allah an excuse against being righteous and fearing Allah and making peace among people. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing." (2:224)

The beginning part of this verse 'wa laa taj'alullaaha 'urdatan li aymaanikum' (though this translation (Sahih International) doesn't show it) is sometimes explained by our scholars to mean that one should show restraint when taking an oath and be careful about it. Hearing how serious a matter it is from our scholars while growing up over and over just led me to avoid it completely... you could say out of fear of taking God's Name in vain.

I'm sure there's a lot more to it.

 

[Robban]

You shouldn't vow... Like Christ has taught... Than you automatically don't have that problem.

I once read a true account of someone who sailed to S America, he was un experienced so he ran out of food, he ended up eating both his hat and wallet. So I wonder what he had said before he set off?

 

[Islam_mulia]

Because they were...

And loving each other, also means telling each other the truth... Because love delights in the truth.....

The devil delights in falsities... And so do his followers.... (in this case the Jewish priests, who were at that time only after money and other worldly things...)

In other words, you are saying that Christians should love the devil or its children?

 

[Montalban]

Just a side note for your own information... if you see a name like 'Bukhari' or any other after a quote.. that would refer to the person who recorded the quote/narration. It would never be a 'verse'.

Daily Verse from the Quran and Hadith
Daily Verse from the Quran and Hadith by Patricia | Muslim Community | Muxlim

 

[Montalban]

That was trinitarianly INCORRECT.

You're incorrect

 

[PHenry42]

You mean the religious freedom to murder anyone who disrespects "the prophet"? And if I say the truth, say, that Muhammad was a liar, is that the same as disrespecting Muhammad?

If that is the definition of your type of religious freedom, than no, you don't have that freedom nor should you ever have that freedom... As that is completely opposed to Christian law as well as humanistic law...

Life without freedom of expression and freedom of religion is no life at all and is not worth living...

 

[Montalban]

PHenry42

Your image doesn't come up on everyone's computer.

Also, I've tried discussing with you facts but you kept insisting that the Hadiths I was citing from were anti-Islamic sites!

 

[PHenry42]

Henry all you have to do is open your eyes and look.Ramadan dinner in the White House.Snubbing Franklin Graham a prominent Christian.Bowing to Saudi Arabia's crowned prince and kissing his hand in an act of submission.Don't even get me start on airport security and the TSA.

Basic courtesies which are afforded to other religions all the time, without anyone as much as blinking. That's not appeasement, that's basic civility. Which, it seems, you assume that, by default, we shouldn't be afforded.

The TSA, uh, what? How's that appeasement? It affects everyone equally. It's only appeasement if you consider the normal, baseline response to be banning us from air travel.

Then there is the The United Nations where there is so much ANTISEMITISM it makes me sick,tell me Henry do you see any nations standing up to speak out against the Islamic nations who foam at the mouth against Israel ?No because its part of the appeasement MENTALITY .Appeasement is not always in the form of land concessions,it can also be a change in philosophy,giving in because of fear of reprisals.But that's what Radical Islam is all about ,isn't it Henry.Striking fear into the heart of the Infidel,slaying them wherever you may find them.So Henry you'll find no appeasement in my statements only truth.

The UN is critical of Israel because of fear of reprisals from Islamic extremists? There's a much simpler explanation for the UN doing what it does. Namely, Israel's ongoing and blatant violation of international law. The UN calling it out on that is not appeasement, it's the UN doing what it's supposed to do.

Thus far, all your examples of appeasement have really only been attempted cases of treating us equally with everyone else. Is that appeasement?

 

[PHenry42]

Also, I've tried discussing with you facts but you kept insisting that the Hadiths I was citing from were anti-Islamic sites!

That's interesting, for I don't remember engaging you at all in this thread

 

[Montalban]

That's interesting, for I don't remember engaging you at all in this thread

Interesting as I don't recall confining my statement to just this thread.

I looked at what I wrote and the words 'here' or 'on this thread' are absent.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

The title of the OP is: Islam doesn't condone terror. And you agree that this includes instances where someone is critical of Islam by exercising their right of free speech.

So why have Muslims tried to assassinate Geert Wilders for expressing his concerns about Islam and its propensity for inciting violence, and why does Mr. Wilders have to have armed guards protecting him 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?

Why did a Muslim try to assassinate the Danish Cartoonist Kurt Westergaard simply for producing a political cartoon satirizing Muhammed?

Instead of a straw man, I think Mr. Westergaard's cartoons far more reflect reality.

.

 

[Servant of Jesus]

So here's another chance for the Muslims participating here to show us that they don't condone violence:

So PHenry42 and Islam_Mulia, repeat after me:

"I unequivocally condemn the attacks and threats of murder directed at Mr. Geert Wilders because of his anti-Islamic statements, and Mr. Kurt Westergaard because of his political cartoons satirizing Muhammed."