Is Your Prayer Language Fraudulent?

[topher694]

I am dealing with the evidence of sound exegesis and other areas of research, you two are not.

Another logical fallacy.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Acts 8:18 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
18 Simon saw that the Spirit was given to people when the apostles laid their hands on them. So he offered the apostles money.

I have no clue that I remember how they tie that verse in to all this. Thanks, daniel

Simple - Simon "Saw something" that clued him in that the Holy Spirit was given. Pentecostal "Logic" is that what he SAW - was them speaking in tongues. It's a stretch, of course, but "Theology" works that way.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

1 Corinthians 14:26-28 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
Your Meetings Should Be Helpful to All
26 So, brothers and sisters, what should you do? When you meet together, one person has a song, another has a teaching, and another has a new truth from God. One person speaks in a different language, and another interprets that language. The purpose of whatever you do should be to help everyone grow stronger in faith. 27 When you meet together, if anyone speaks to the group in a different language, it should be only two or no more than three people who do this. And they should speak one after the other. And someone else should interpret what they say. 28 But if there is no interpreter, then anyone who speaks in a different language should be quiet in the church meeting. They should speak only to themselves and to God.

And since that's what we do, you think the problem with contemporary Pentecostals is????

I've been running with the Pentecostals / Charismatics (Assemblies of God and others) since 1964 in 7 different states, and I can STILL count on the fingers of both hands, the number of times a tongue delivered in a service as a MESSAGE to the congregation has NOT been interpreted in plain English. On quite a few occasions I was the "Interpreter"

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Wow, talk about illustrating my point nicely.

Friend, the comics are about you two pigeon holing me.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

For me I just seek to love, honor, and serve God and if speaking in tongues comes then it comes. If it doesn’t then I’m not blessed with this gift. It doesn’t mean that my heart is not set on God.

1 Corinthians 13:4-9 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not brag, and it is not proud. 5 Love is not rude, it is not selfish, and it cannot be made angry easily. Love does not remember wrongs done against it. 6 Love is never happy when others do wrong, but it is always happy with the truth. 7 Love never gives up on people. It never stops trusting, never loses hope, and never quits.

8 Love will never end. But all those gifts will come to an end—even the gift of prophecy, the gift of speaking in different kinds of languages, and the gift of knowledge. 9 These will all end because this knowledge and these prophecies we have are not complete.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Another logical fallacy.

You have no sense of humor.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Simple - Simon "Saw something" that clued him in that the Holy Spirit was given. Pentecostal "Logic" is that what he SAW - was them speaking in tongues. It's a stretch, of course, but "Theology" works that way.

Wow, thank you,
Daniel

 

[topher694]

You have no sense of humor.

Given the dialog, I don't appreciate that comment one bit.

You say I've used faulty logic (when I haven't), then ignore your own logically fallacies or minimize them to a joke?

You have hijacked this thread.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

And since that's what we do, you think the problem with contemporary Pentecostals is????

I've been running with the Pentecostals / Charismatics (Assemblies of God and others) since 1964 in 7 different states, and I can STILL count on the fingers of both hands, the number of times a tongue delivered in a service as a MESSAGE to the congregation has NOT been interpreted in plain English. On quite a few occasions I was the "Interpreter"

Here in Michigan it must be different. There is only Chaos. I found that true for Denver too. I have never figured out why people wants the gift that does not serve others when not interpreted.

For example, many speaks in tongues at the same time. In Acts 2, the Apostles would have had to take turns for the listeners to discern their language and understand what was being said. We are only given a summary, not step by step details there. I base my understand of good order, Paul saying that the prophets should take turns speaking.

23 Suppose the whole church meets together and you all speak in different languages. If some people come in who are without understanding or don’t believe, they will say you are crazy. 24 But suppose you are all prophesying and someone comes in who does not believe or who is without understanding. Their sin will be shown to them, and they will be judged by everything you say. 25 The secret things in their heart will be made known. So they will bow down and worship God. They will say, “Without a doubt, God is here with you.

26 So, brothers and sisters, what should you do? When you meet together, one person has a song, another has a teaching, and another has a new truth from God. One person speaks in a different language, and another interprets that language. The purpose of whatever you do should be to help everyone grow stronger in faith. 27 When you meet together, if anyone speaks to the group in a different language, it should be only two or no more than three people who do this. And they should speak one after the other. And someone else should interpret what they say. 28 But if there is no interpreter, then anyone who speaks in a different language should be quiet in the church meeting. They should speak only to themselves and to God.

29 And only two or three prophets should speak. The others should judge what they say. 30 And if a message from God comes to someone who is sitting, the first speaker should be quiet. 31 You can all prophesy one after the other. This way everyone can be taught and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are under the control of the prophets themselves. 33 God is not a God of confusion but a God of peace. This is the rule for all the meetings of God’s people.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

At many meetings, I have seen people speak in noise for 20 minutes, only to have a person stand up and say "support our missionaries" and it was missions week. The tongues there was really not needed. I have had guests come with me who knew foreign languages many times. Not once, did they hear their language spoken in such a meeting. You would think if the speaking in unknown languages to the speaker, God would have some speak in the foreign languages these people knew.

I can speak in Cherokee. I have never heard that language spoken in a meeting.

My first language was Hebrew. And, yet I have heard others say they heard Hebrew. I would inquire, how do they know Hebrew? And, what was said in Hebrew? Their answers were lame and funny. Who is better to recognize a language they speak? The native of that language or someone who has never heard, nor spoken that language?

I know Muslims who visited Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches here in Detroit Metro Area. They have never heard anyone speak Arabic, while speaking in tongues.

I have personally spoken in Missionary Tongues to Muslims from Iran, when I was in the military and in Dearborn. The Iranian persons were put to death for becoming Christians.

I have friends in Quebec, who have visited English speaking churches and none of them have heard anyone speaking in tongues, speak French.

Based on Acts 2, one would expect those speaking in languages that they personally do not know, speak in a language of someone there that speaks a foreign language.

If one wants to test if their personal tongues, language is real --- all they have to do is find someone who speaks a foreign language and pray in front of them in their unknown language. I believe, if their prayer tongue is real, God would give them that persons' language to speak.

This is not hard for God to do. After all God let Daniel know what the rulers vision was and the meaning of it.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

why do pentecostal missionary schools teach language courses?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

unlawfully seize (an aircraft, ship, or vehicle) in transit and force it to go to a different destination or use it for one's own purposes.

Anyone who wants to post in this thread can.

If it were hijacked, then others would not be able to post in it.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Given the dialog, I don't appreciate that comment one bit.

You say I've used faulty logic (when I haven't), then ignore your own logically fallacies or minimize them to a joke?

You have hijacked this thread.

unlawfully seize (an aircraft, ship, or vehicle) in transit and force it to go to a different destination or use it for one's own purposes.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

read to here, break time

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Given the dialog, I don't appreciate that comment one bit.

You say I've used faulty logic (when I haven't), then ignore your own logically fallacies or minimize them to a joke?

You have hijacked this thread.

I apologize at offending you. I am offended by the comments you and what's the other posters name made about me.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

read to here, break time

 

[jiminpa]

I've found that people who feel the need to go to these lengths, who won't let it go, who twist, mock, ridicule, and deflect the way we've seen here, often do so from a place of insecurity. The "debate/argument" makes them feel important which is why they cannot let it go.

What someone else says on the internet is not going to challenge who I am or what I believe. I'll put forth my thoughts, answer some questions, but I rarely go into great detail and back & forth unless it is coming from a place of sincere inquiry. Yet notice how when the conversation seems to be winding down folks like this seem to find the smallest little detail to exploit (this is where the twisting of words often comes in) to rekindle the debate, then continue to spew all the same opinions and mockery all over again.

I agree. I have studied the scripture on this for decades. I know my position is fully in line with the explicit text of the Bible. There's no ambiguity in the scripture on this. This guy knows he's not going to sway anyone who knows the scriptures. He's looking to sow his doubt in those who are less grounded on what the bible actually says about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. That's what bothers me.

 

[jiminpa]

I agree. I have studied the scripture on this for decades. I know my position is fully in line with the explicit text of the Bible. There's no ambiguity in the scripture on this. This guy knows he's not going to sway anyone who knows the scriptures. He's looking to sow his doubt in those who are less grounded on what the bible actually says about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. That's what bothers me.

And he's using the "eat an elephant" technique. If he can sow doubt about the current use of tongues, The Enemy can use that as a foothold to destroy even the uses that this guy claims to approve of, and then the rest of the gifts can be disparaged, leaving the now questioning believer as defenseless and powerless as an unbeliever, except that the doubting believer is fully engaged in the spiritual war, but left without weapons or defenses.

 

[topher694]

I agree. I have studied the scripture on this for decades. I know my position is fully in line with the explicit text of the Bible. There's no ambiguity in the scripture on this. This guy knows he's not going to sway anyone who knows the scriptures. He's looking to sow his doubt in those who are less grounded on what the bible actually says about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. That's what bothers me.

Exactly, I've taught on this topic for over a decade, written manuals, preached on it dozens of times. The key is biblical balance, and that is not what we've seen here.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

For example, many speaks in tongues at the same time.

What you're probably referring to is the "normal nature" Pentecostal "Praise and Worship" where we all celebrate our relationship with God in worship, prayer, and praise. We all PRAY together in English, tongues, and even song. However what PAUL is talking about is the
Teaching/preaching/informational" portion of the service, where ONLY the pastor/teacher is delivering the message to the congregation gathered. Now and again the Holy Spirit will, when HE chooses to, punctuate this portion of the service with a Prophesy, or an utterance in Tongues with subsequent interpretetion, just as instructed in 1 COr 14.

He's clear that in Corinth, the tongues spoken ARE NOT understood in the gathering (which is why they have to be interpreted).

Of course, messages in a tongue which ARE understood by listeners (in the Acts 2 fashion) are a matter of record unless you choose to believe that All Pentecostal / CHarismatic Missionaries, and Pastors that report such things are all bald-faced LIARS.

NOTE: the Early Pentecostal DID BELIEVE that they could simply go into the mission field, and be able to preach to the nekkid natives in Oogabalooga without having to learn their language. It didn't take long for them to realize that God wasn't gonna play that game - He apparently wanted "Christian Missionaries" to form relationships with the people, which meant learning their language, and fellowshipping with them, instead of "just collecting scalps" to hang on their belts as "Conversion trophies".