Is Your Prayer Language Fraudulent?

[Daniel Marsh]

I agree. I have studied the scripture on this for decades. I know my position is fully in line with the explicit text of the Bible. There's no ambiguity in the scripture on this. This guy knows he's not going to sway anyone who knows the scriptures. He's looking to sow his doubt in those who are less grounded on what the bible actually says about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. That's what bothers me.

I have also studied the scriptures, history, church fathers, science, tested claims in person.

The big problem I see in pentecostal meetings is a serious violation of

1 Corinthians 14:40
but all things should be done decently and in order.

1 Corinthians 14:40 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
In conclusion then, my brothers, set your heart on preaching the word of God, while not forbidding the use of “tongues”. Let everything be done decently and in order.

1 Corinthians 14:40 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
40 But everything should be done in a way that is right and orderly.

1 Corinthians 14:40 Expanded Bible (EXB)
40 But let everything be done in a ·right [proper; fitting] and orderly way.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

We do have a description of early church worship,

"
Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)

 

[jiminpa]

We do have a description of early church worship,

"
Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)

NVM.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

We do have a description of early church worship,

"
Chapter 67. Weekly worship of the Christians
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration." CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)

 

[Blade]

I have always taken it as to deep for words.. so I pray in the spirit. It is HE..

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I have always taken it as to deep for words.. so I pray in the spirit. It is HE..

So do I friend.

From Romans 8, it can not hurt to ask Jesus to pray too.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So I was wondering about this and before you just reply to my title, I ask you to humbly read my post.

I was curious about this because when I first started to pray in the Spirit I would have doubts, as I'm sure most do, if it was real or legitimate. I still do to be honest.

My question is, does the form or fashion of your prayer language really matter?

Scripture is clear that spiritual prayer is unintelligible to man, so any groans or sounds we make in faith-filled prayer, would that then classify as Spirit Filled prayer?

Mainly just to help those who may doubt, and thus by doubting not try.

If you have asked for the prayer language and have received it by faith, then you are speaking according to your faith. This is because if you ask for a genuine prayer language, then God is faithful to His promise that whatever you ask for in His will He will give it to you, and not allow you to receive something else. Jesus made this clear when He said that if an earthly father will not give a stone to a child who asks for bread, or a snake when the child asks for fish, how much more would our Heavenly Father give us the Holy Spirit when we ask Him for it?

All you have to do is to tell the Lord that you are depending on 1 Corinthians 14:2 and ask Him to guide your tongue. Then your prayer language is solidly based on a clear verse of Scripture and not on some indeterminate feeling or emotion.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

If you have asked for the prayer language and have received it by faith, then you are speaking according to your faith. This is because if you ask for a genuine prayer language, then God is faithful to His promise that whatever you ask for in His will He will give it to you, and not allow you to receive something else. Jesus made this clear when He said that if an earthly father will not give a stone to a child who asks for bread, or a snake when the child asks for fish, how much more would our Heavenly Father give us the Holy Spirit when we ask Him for it?

All you have to do is to tell the Lord that you are depending on 1 Corinthians 14:2 and ask Him to guide your tongue. Then your prayer language is solidly based on a clear verse of Scripture and not on some indeterminate feeling or emotion.

what takes more faith?
Discussion - what takes more faith?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

what takes more faith?
Discussion - what takes more faith?

Your question is rather difficult to answer, but I will try.
Faith doesn't have a quantity. It is either strong or weak or in-between. Faith in God is based on His promises. Therefore strong faith is based on the bare written promise of God that applies to the chosen action.

It is easier to have faith in positive or negative circumstances because we have clear promises to depend on in either case. But it is very difficult to have faith where there are no circumstances at all. This means that there is no external support support our faith other than a written promise in the Bible.

For example, strong faith that brings absolute assurance of salvation comes because the person believes, "By grace are we saved, through faith, not of ourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works least anyone should boast in them." The person may not feel saved at all, and has no other evidence of it, other than that written verse. His strong faith takes hold of the verse and thereby has full assurance of salvation.

A person with weak faith may believe the verse and have serious doubts about his salvation and his spiritual state. There is no doubt that he is saved, but he is not sure in himself that he is. He cannot just depend on that verse alone, he needs something else. God, in his grace and mercy, may provide some sensory indication or experience to bolster his faith to make him feel more saved. It may be a sense of the presence of God with him, or a friend coming to him and acknowledging the fundamental change he can see in his life.

It is the same with the baptism with the Spirit. A person with strong faith will ask God according to the Scripture, "Ask in the will of God and you will receive", then he will receive it by faith, and then believe that he is baptised with the Spirit on the basis of the written promise, without any supporting emotion or sensory manifestation. Someone may ask how he knows he is baptised with the Spirit and he may answer, "Because God's Word says I am, period." A person with weak faith may need to have some sensory manifestation like trembling, jerking, falling over, automatically speaking in tongues, goosebumps up the spine to assure him that he is baptised with the Spirit. Believers with weak faith demand that tongues be the initial evidence of the baptism with the Spirit, when the initial evidence is actually faith in the written Word.

Now concerning tongues. I said, "automatic tongues" before, because some have had this experience when receiving the baptism with the Spirit. It is not an act of faith on their part. It is something that the Holy Spirit has done in them to bolster their weak faith. It just came out without the person actually choosing it to happen.

But to receive the on-going ability to speak in tongues, one must take the steps of faith to receive it - ask for it, receive it by faith, start forming words, phrases and sentences as a deliberate act of faith. Then the flow of the prayer language starts as the Holy Spirit inspires the words. Notice I said that it is a flow of language, not a compulsion. The person is in absolute control about when and how he speaks and the prayer-words he chooses, but it is the Holy Spirit who inspires the words as the person voluntarily speaks them. A person with strong faith will use his prayer language, believing that God hears and understands, on the basis that he asked for the ability according to the promise that he will receive what he asked for according to God's will for him, and that by actually receiving it from God's hands, that he will receive the real thing and not something counterfeit.

A person with weak faith will wait for something to bubble up from within him before he will start speaking, or he will expect the Holy Spirit to control his mouth and tongue while he remains passive.

A person with no faith in the Word concerning tongues will believe that it is either not for today, or not for him, and therefore will never use it as a tool for powerful prayer.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Your question is rather difficult to answer, but I will try.
Faith doesn't have a quantity. It is either strong or weak or in-between. Faith in God is based on His promises. Therefore strong faith is based on the bare written promise of God that applies to the chosen action.

It is easier to have faith in positive or negative circumstances because we have clear promises to depend on in either case. But it is very difficult to have faith where there are no circumstances at all. This means that there is no external support support our faith other than a written promise in the Bible.

For example, strong faith that brings absolute assurance of salvation comes because the person believes, "By grace are we saved, through faith, not of ourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works least anyone should boast in them." The person may not feel saved at all, and has no other evidence of it, other than that written verse. His strong faith takes hold of the verse and thereby has full assurance of salvation.

A person with weak faith may believe the verse and have serious doubts about his salvation and his spiritual state. There is no doubt that he is saved, but he is not sure in himself that he is. He cannot just depend on that verse alone, he needs something else. God, in his grace and mercy, may provide some sensory indication or experience to bolster his faith to make him feel more saved. It may be a sense of the presence of God with him, or a friend coming to him and acknowledging the fundamental change he can see in his life.

It is the same with the baptism with the Spirit. A person with strong faith will ask God according to the Scripture, "Ask in the will of God and you will receive", then he will receive it by faith, and then believe that he is baptised with the Spirit on the basis of the written promise, without any supporting emotion or sensory manifestation. Someone may ask how he knows he is baptised with the Spirit and he may answer, "Because God's Word says I am, period." A person with weak faith may need to have some sensory manifestation like trembling, jerking, falling over, automatically speaking in tongues, goosebumps up the spine to assure him that he is baptised with the Spirit. Believers with weak faith demand that tongues be the initial evidence of the baptism with the Spirit, when the initial evidence is actually faith in the written Word.

Now concerning tongues. I said, "automatic tongues" before, because some have had this experience when receiving the baptism with the Spirit. It is not an act of faith on their part. It is something that the Holy Spirit has done in them to bolster their weak faith. It just came out without the person actually choosing it to happen.

But to receive the on-going ability to speak in tongues, one must take the steps of faith to receive it - ask for it, receive it by faith, start forming words, phrases and sentences as a deliberate act of faith. Then the flow of the prayer language starts as the Holy Spirit inspires the words. Notice I said that it is a flow of language, not a compulsion. The person is in absolute control about when and how he speaks and the prayer-words he chooses, but it is the Holy Spirit who inspires the words as the person voluntarily speaks them. A person with strong faith will use his prayer language, believing that God hears and understands, on the basis that he asked for the ability according to the promise that he will receive what he asked for according to God's will for him, and that by actually receiving it from God's hands, that he will receive the real thing and not something counterfeit.

A person with weak faith will wait for something to bubble up from within him before he will start speaking, or he will expect the Holy Spirit to control his mouth and tongue while he remains passive.

A person with no faith in the Word concerning tongues will believe that it is either not for today, or not for him, and therefore will never use it as a tool for powerful prayer.

Thanks for your input.

Where are examples of people asking for a spiritual gift in scripture?
Discussion - Where are examples of people asking for a spiritual gift in scripture?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Thanks for your input.

Where are examples of people asking for a spiritual gift in scripture?
Discussion - Where are examples of people asking for a spiritual gift in scripture?

The closest I can come to it is what Paul said in Corinthians. "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that you may prophesy." And, "If we delight in the Lord, He will give us the desire of our hearts." And, "Be not anxious for anything, but by prayer and supplication make your requests to the lord, with thanksgiving, and the peace of God that passes all understanding will keep you hearts and minds in Christ Jesus". Also, "If we ask for anything according to the will of God, He will give it to us."

This is why the very first step in asking for a spiritual gift is to ensure that it is God's will for us. This takes the most time, because we have to wait on God to come to that assurance. This is because the Spirit distributes the gifts as He wills, and so we need to take time to ensure that we are in harmony with the Spirit concerning the particular spiritual gift that we are seeking.

However, concerning tongues, we already have the promises, "These signs shall follow those who believe...they shall speak with other tongues." Therefore, the qualification that we need to receive the gift of tongues is that we believe on Christ and God's promises. Also, we know it is God's will that we prophesy, because Paul said, "Desire spiritual gifts but rather that you may prophesy." Also, he said, "You may all prophesy." So this shows that it is God's will that we can manifest the spiritual gift of prophesy.

Once we establish that it is God's will that we receive a certain spiritual gift, then we take the next Scriptural step by asking for it. Making requests to God is solidly based on Scripture.

Then we need to receive, or accept the gift. We can go on asking and asking without actually receiving. Saying to God that we now receive the gift, activates our faith that we are taking the gift from God's hands as He holds it out to us. At that stage we can confidently believe that we have the gift.

This process works for tongues and prophecy, because these gifts are under our control in their operation. The other gifts seem to manifest more under the control of the Spirit where He manifests them through us as the occasion warrants. We can't just manufacture the word of knowledge or wisdom, or discerning of spirits, faith, miracles, healing. However we can ask the Lord for the manifestation of the gift when faced with a situation where the exercise of that gift is required, but have to wait until the Spirit manifests in that way.

So once we come to the place where we believe that we have the gift, then we have to activate our faith by starting to speak in tongues or prophesy. That is something we have to do, even though we feel nothing in the way of a sensory experience or particular emotion, or anything bubbling up from inside of us. These things are having faith in feelings and not in God's promise.

So that is my take on these things, and every time I have assisted someone to come through in tongues or prophecy, it has worked every time, and the results have been amazing.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

The closest I can come to it is what Paul said in Corinthians. "Pursue love and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that you may prophesy." And, "If we delight in the Lord, He will give us the desire of our hearts." And, "Be not anxious for anything, but by prayer and supplication make your requests to the lord, with thanksgiving, and the peace of God that passes all understanding will keep you hearts and minds in Christ Jesus". Also, "If we ask for anything according to the will of God, He will give it to us."

This is why the very first step in asking for a spiritual gift is to ensure that it is God's will for us. This takes the most time, because we have to wait on God to come to that assurance. This is because the Spirit distributes the gifts as He wills, and so we need to take time to ensure that we are in harmony with the Spirit concerning the particular spiritual gift that we are seeking.

However, concerning tongues, we already have the promises, "These signs shall follow those who believe...they shall speak with other tongues." Therefore, the qualification that we need to receive the gift of tongues is that we believe on Christ and God's promises. Also, we know it is God's will that we prophesy, because Paul said, "Desire spiritual gifts but rather that you may prophesy." Also, he said, "You may all prophesy." So this shows that it is God's will that we can manifest the spiritual gift of prophesy.

Once we establish that it is God's will that we receive a certain spiritual gift, then we take the next Scriptural step by asking for it. Making requests to God is solidly based on Scripture.

Then we need to receive, or accept the gift. We can go on asking and asking without actually receiving. Saying to God that we now receive the gift, activates our faith that we are taking the gift from God's hands as He holds it out to us. At that stage we can confidently believe that we have the gift.

This process works for tongues and prophecy, because these gifts are under our control in their operation. The other gifts seem to manifest more under the control of the Spirit where He manifests them through us as the occasion warrants. We can't just manufacture the word of knowledge or wisdom, or discerning of spirits, faith, miracles, healing. However we can ask the Lord for the manifestation of the gift when faced with a situation where the exercise of that gift is required, but have to wait until the Spirit manifests in that way.

So once we come to the place where we believe that we have the gift, then we have to activate our faith by starting to speak in tongues or prophesy. That is something we have to do, even though we feel nothing in the way of a sensory experience or particular emotion, or anything bubbling up from inside of us. These things are having faith in feelings and not in God's promise.

So that is my take on these things, and every time I have assisted someone to come through in tongues or prophecy, it has worked every time, and the results have been amazing.

Echo Back: I think you said, as I did Paul tells us to seek the higher gifts. At this time you like myself do not have any examples of anyone in Scriptures asking for the gift of tongues.

Did I understand you correctly friend?

 

[jiminpa]

Oscarr, why do you continue to engage with one who is not swayed by the scriptures? He will press you for answers to his irrelevant questions until he presents one you can't rebuff and hold it up as evidence to shake the weak. He's not here to learn. He is here to demonstrate his superior debating skills, and he'll beat you, not on truth, but on his ability to manipulate the irrelevant.

 

[topher694]

Oscarr, why do you continue to engage with one who is not swayed by the scriptures? He will press you for answers to his irrelevant questions until he presents one you can't rebuff and hold it up as evidence to shake the weak. He's not here to learn. He is here to demonstrate his superior debating skills, and he'll beat you, not on truth, but on his ability to manipulate the irrelevant.

He's got an agenda and skirts the rules to push it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Echo Back: I think you said, as I did Paul tells us to seek the higher gifts. At this time you like myself do not have any examples of anyone in Scriptures asking for the gift of tongues.

Did I understand you correctly friend?

If we go by the examples in the Book of Acts, we see that tongues comes as soon as the person hears and believes the gospel. But the church as gone through a long period of apostacy and corruption and is nowhere near the standard of the early church. Tongues was the norm for early church believers, but in most of our churches it is seen as either wacky or heretical. So there is a lot of prejudice against it to overcome.

This is why we have to go through the steps of faith (asking, receiving, activating faith) to receive the gift so the person is assured that they are receiving the real thing and not some wacky counterfeit.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr, why do you continue to engage with one who is not swayed by the scriptures? He will press you for answers to his irrelevant questions until he presents one you can't rebuff and hold it up as evidence to shake the weak. He's not here to learn. He is here to demonstrate his superior debating skills, and he'll beat you, not on truth, but on his ability to manipulate the irrelevant.

I tell people what I believe is true from what I see in God's Word. I can't change people's views because they have free choice to believe what they will. But if I am sharing truth and the other person decides not to believe it but rather try to discredit me to sharing it, then their blood is not on my hands but theirs.

Also, Paul, in 1 Corinthians, says that those who use their superior intellect to debate theological issues and use occasions to show off their greater personal knowledge, are not conforming to the gospel of Christ, which is very simple and unadorned by the enticing words of the wisdom of this world.

So if a person is using what I am saying to cause a debate in order to find something to finally prove me wrong and therefore discredit everything I have said, then they are not in harmony with God and therefore are operating from the flesh and not the Spirit, and the Scripture says that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. So, unless they repent, it might suck to be them at the Judgment when we all have to give an account of what we say and do in this life, this forum included.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

He's got an agenda and skirts the rules to push it.

His agenda cannot harm me, if my agenda is in harmony with God's Word.

 

[jiminpa]

I tell people what I believe is true from what I see in God's Word. I can't change people's views because they have free choice to believe what they will. But if I am sharing truth and the other person decides not to believe it but rather try to discredit me to sharing it, then their blood is not on my hands but theirs.

Also, Paul, in 1 Corinthians, says that those who use their superior intellect to debate theological issues and use occasions to show off their greater personal knowledge, are not conforming to the gospel of Christ, which is very simple and unadorned by the enticing words of the wisdom of this world.

So if a person is using what I am saying to cause a debate in order to find something to finally prove me wrong and therefore discredit everything I have said, then they are not in harmony with God and therefore are operating from the flesh and not the Spirit, and the Scripture says that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. So, unless they repent, it might suck to be them at the Judgment when we all have to give an account of what we say and do in this life, this forum included.

I just figure that if we keep feeding him he'll keep bombing this forum, and I get tired of all of these cessationists coming on here and doing what cessationists do, less than honestly trying to win converts to their unbelief. We have a forum for Charismatics and Pentecostals so that we can discuss without their harassment.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Oscarr, why do you continue to engage with one who is not swayed by the scriptures? He will press you for answers to his irrelevant questions until he presents one you can't rebuff and hold it up as evidence to shake the weak. He's not here to learn. He is here to demonstrate his superior debating skills, and he'll beat you, not on truth, but on his ability to manipulate the irrelevant.

I am the world's worst debater. I ask questions to learn. The early church was the keeper of the Scriptures. They were taught by the Apostles themselves. So, their historical writings have value in finding out what they taught. So, yes I use the Scriptures, historical research, and modern research by Biblical Scholars. Many Scholars are filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I just figure that if we keep feeding him he'll keep bombing this forum, and I get tired of all of these cessationists coming on here and doing what cessationists do, less than honestly trying to win converts to their unbelief. We have a forum for Charismatics and Pentecostals so that we can discuss without their harassment.

I am not a cessationist, my interest is learning what is genuine or fake.