Is your faith based on a false hope?

[OttawaUk]

How on Earth can you possible equate "eternal punishment" with annhiliation? There's absolutely no connection there.

As for the rest of what you wrote, the Biblical answer to the meaning of "death" will clear up the rest of your misconception. We have physical death and spiritual death - both mean seperation. When we physically die, our soul is seperated from our body. When we spiritually die, our soul is seperated from God.

I'll give you an example. In Genesis, when Rachel was giving birth and died, this is what scripture said:

"And it came to pass, when she was in hard labor, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also. And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin." (Genesis 35:17-18)

Luke 8 contains additional evidence that separation of the soul and physical body is the meaning of physical death. Jesus was raising a little girl from the dead! “Little girl, arise.” Immediately after this comment, the text states: “Then her spirit returned, and she arose immediately” (Luke 8:40-55)

Or think about this verse...

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world.... But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ...” (Ephesians 2:1-2,4-5)

This is spiritual death, because obviously before Christ we are physically alive. Spiritual death means seperation from God because of sin.

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2)

I have no idea why you continue to believe the heresy of annihilationism even though scripture clearly talks about eternal punishment and death being seperation.

OU

 

[Jipsah]

How on Earth can you possible equate "eternal punishment" with annhiliation? There's absolutely no connection there.

How on earth can you so steadfastly ignore all the Scriptures that directly and explicitly say that the result of sin is death and that eternal life is only given to the blessed? Does your doctrine make you unable to read those Scriptures?

As for the rest of what you wrote, the Biblical answer to the meaning of "death" will clear up the rest of your misconception.

Ah, this is where you tell me that "dead" doesn't mean "dead", right? I always love the "that's what the Bible says, but what it really means is..." tack. Allows one to explain away all those bothersome Scriptures that bore holes in the bottom of your doctrinal boat.

We have physical death and spiritual death - both mean seperation.

Yeah, separation from life.

When we physically die, our soul is seperated from our body. When we spiritually die, our soul is seperated from God.

Nice try, but there's no Scripture that says any such thing. That's simply arglebargle constructed to try and shore up the Scripturally indefensible Eternal Torture doctrine. Since it couldn't be defended through Scripture, those who hold to the pernicious doctrine had to come up with a bogus justification for believing it. So they do the "dead doesn't really mean dead, it means "separated". Suuuuuure it does.

I have no idea why you continue to believe the heresy of annihilationism

It's because I believe the Bible and not the tommyrot that people have made up and tried to inveigle into it. BTW, if it doesn't violate the creeds, it's not heretical, even if whatever sect you belong to doesn't hold with it. I 'spect that some folks have gotten so used to assigning convenient meanings to words that they no longer realize that words have established denotative maenings. But some of us don't hold with the Humpty Dumpty notion of "words mean what I want them to".

even though scripture clearly talks about eternal punishment and death being seperation.

The Bible clearly says that God will destroy both body and soul in hell, but you don't believe that. The Bible says the those who believe on God's only Son will not perish, but you don't believe anybody's gonna perish. The Bible says that the soul that sins will die, but you don't believe that it really means "die". The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, but you don't reckon that death means death. This is all about changing the Bible to fit the doctrine, and then accusing anyone who doesn't accept your made-up dogma of heresy. Pretty sordid stuff, don't you think?

 

[sedg]

Then you've guess wrong yet again. God judges sin. That's from the Bible. But the heathen, pagan-inspired notion of "eternal torture" is purely a made-up doctrine of men and not from Scripture. The Bible says that the soul that sins will die. Our Lord says that God can destroy both body and soul in hell. St. Paul says that the wages of sin is death. Syncretistic doctrine says "the wages of sin is eternal life - under torture." I reckon I'll just believe the Bible on this one. You may do as you please.

You have a God of your own, do you?

This is where you try and sell me the heathen view of God the Implacable Torturer, right? Sorry, ain't buying any.

So what does the Bible (presumably yours as well as mine) say are the consequences of that choice?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What you're telling me is that that famous verse is wrong, and that those who don't believe not only do not perish as the Bible says, but in fact have eternal life anyway; eternal life under torture.

Your doctrine flatly contradicts the Bible. Now let's see, if I have to choose between your doctrine and what the Bible actually says, which should I pick? Wow, talk about tough decisions!

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
-----------------------------------------------------
Revelation 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
-----------------------------------------------------
42 “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where
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[inhisdebt]

What are you hung up on? The word "eternal"? Death of the soul is pretty eternal. This whole "eternal separation from God but you're still alive frying like bacon" thing is a doctrine of man.

Mathew 25v31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting PUNISHMENT: but the righteous into life eternal

 

[youdahman]

Mathew 25v31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting PUNISHMENT: but the righteous into life eternal

everlasting punishment... isn't death everlasting? exactly...

I can imagine it now though. Satan is next to this 8 year old kid in hell.

Satan:Hey kid, what you in here for?

Kid:I got angry at my brother for no reason, and then i got hit by a car on my way to school. How bout you?

Satan:Hrmmm, i introduced sin, i caused billions of people to sin, i've caused billions to go to hell, etc etc etc. Hey kid guess what though...

Kid:yea?

Satan:You and me are both stuck here for all eternity, and all you did was get angry HAHAHAHAHAH. OWNED SON.

I know the story was sensational, and it may have struck a nerve, but is this the will of a merciful, infinite loving God?

You have to ask yourself, why does it say whosoever believeth in him shall not perish?

You have to ask yourself, why does the bible say "shall not take part in the second death?"

Why does this doctrine contradict many bible texts. ANd just re-examine and RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH.

Because in all honesty, how dare you believe in a God that will burn Satan the same ammount of time as a child who got angry at his little brother.

 

[OttawaUk]

Jipsah and those with no concept of God's Justice or the scriptural reality of eternal punishment.

I will be praying for you and those around you.

God Bless you,
OU

 

[Jipsah]

Jipsah and those with no concept of God's Justice or the scriptural reality of eternal punishment.

"Justice"? You mean inflicting eternal torture on everyone who wsn't saved? You mean sending what most Christians believe to be the majority of those who've ever lived to be tormented in flames forever? That's justice? That's codswallop.

That's what comes from allowing a heathen concept, one that directly contradicts what the Bible repeatedly says, to be treated as though it were in itself holy writ. You end up attributing things to God that we'd consider evil in ourselves, and then just waving it off by saying "Oh, well it's not evil for God. Different rules."

I will be praying for you and those around you.

I'll take it. I'll pray that you'll dump the syncretistic nonsense that you've been gulled into believing and trust the Bible.

 

[Jipsah]

I know the story was sensational, and it may have struck a nerve, but is this the will of a merciful, infinite loving God?

Requires a fairly serious execise in doublethink, doesn't it? It's like saying "God is good, but when He does what we'd consider evil then we have to call it good."

The trick is that if God is good (and He is, else the word "good" has no real meaning), but our doctrine says that He does something that would be evil if we did it, then it's time we re-examined the doctrine. But nobody wants to do that, because they believe the doctrine they've been taught first and foremost, and if the Bible contradicts it then they have to reinterpret the Bible to make it fit their doctrine. In the process of doing that, if they can find one verse in Scripture that can remotely be interpreted to support what they believe anyway, then they wave that verse (or their interpretation thereof) around and declare that it trumps any number of other Scriptures that clearly contradict it.

That's how folks come up with stuff like "dead doesn't really mean dead, it means "separation". Of course the Bible says no such thing, but to assume that the Bible says what it says leaves their doctrine in tatters, and that can't be allowed.

The fact here is simple. The Bible teaches again and again and again that eternal life is a gift from God to the blessed, but that the result of sin is death. The syncretists (because that's what they are whether they know it or not) say "No, everyone has eternal life, to be spent either in bliss or under torture." They simply ignore, deny, or "explain away" all the Scriptures that say precisely the opposite of what they believe, and then proclaim those who do believe the Bible on the question "heretics".

You have to ask yourself, why does it say whosoever believeth in him shall not perish?

Ah, but you see, "perish" didn't really mean "perish", it meant "live forever shreiking in agony while being roasted over a slow fire". Common mistake.

You have to ask yourself, why does the bible say "shall not take part in the second death?"

C'mon, let's not let the Bible interfere with the doctrine, OK? What are ya, some kind of heretic?

Why does this doctrine contradict many bible texts.

Remember, when the Bible contradicts the doctrine, the Bible has to be brought in line.

 

[inhisdebt]

everlasting punishment... isn't death everlasting? exactly...

I can imagine it now though. Satan is next to this 8 year old kid in hell.

Satan:Hey kid, what you in here for?

Kid:I got angry at my brother for no reason, and then i got hit by a car on my way to school. How bout you?

Satan:Hrmmm, i introduced sin, i caused billions of people to sin, i've caused billions to go to hell, etc etc etc. Hey kid guess what though...

Kid:yea?

Satan:You and me are both stuck here for all eternity, and all you did was get angry HAHAHAHAHAH. OWNED SON.

I know the story was sensational, and it may have struck a nerve, but is this the will of a merciful, infinite loving God?

You have to ask yourself, why does it say whosoever believeth in him shall not perish?

You have to ask yourself, why does the bible say "shall not take part in the second death?"

Why does this doctrine contradict many bible texts. ANd just re-examine and RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH.

Because in all honesty, how dare you believe in a God that will burn Satan the same ammount of time as a child who got angry at his little brother.

You are dening clearly stated scripture to support the messiah that you believe in, I suggest you spend some time reading the old testiment as the same God is refered to in both.

Proverbs 1v7 The FEAR of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction

 

[OttawaUk]

Inhisdebt,

I've never understood those Christians who think God is some nice old Santa Claus figure who will never hurt or punish anyone. They have no concept of fearing God. They forget about God kicking Adam and Eve out of the Garden. They forget about the global flood wiping out nearly the entire human race. They forget about Sodom and Gamorrah. They forget about the thundering and lighting of Mt. Sinai. They forget about the pain and agony Jesus Christ went through to save us. God is perfect, He cannot be around sin. It is so serious that God gave His only Son to save us.

Scripture doesn't contradict scripture. Its plainly stated in Matthew 24:46, that there will be eternal punishment. Nothing anyone can say or do will refute that. So they only way Annihilationists try to refute it, is by creating their own definition of death. Unfortunately that's not Biblical reality and it makes absolutely no sense of God's Justice.

I stand on God's Truth, and I will try to reach everyone I can accordingly.

OU

 

[inhisdebt]

Inhisdebt,

This is exactly the problem with some Christians. They think God is some nice old Santa Claus figure who will never hurt or punish anyone. They have no concept of fearing God.

Scripture doesn't contradict scripture. Its plainly stated in Matthew 24:46, that there will be eternal punishment. Nothing anyone can say or do will refute that. So they only way Annihilationists try to refute it, is by creating their own definition of death. Unfortunately that's not Biblical reality.

I stand on God's Truth, and I will try to reach everyone I can accordingly.

OU

Agreed and as i stated earlier, it is this lack of fear that has lead to the apostacy.

 

[Jipsah]

You are dening clearly stated scripture to support the messiah that you believe in, I suggest you spend some time reading the old testiment as the same God is refered to in both.

None of the ET fans here has addressed any of the Scriptures that say that the sinner dies, except to say "Oh, death doesn't mean death..." or some such baloney. They just kep reciting their doctrine. And once again, a pox on that pagan extra-biblical made-up doctrine.

 

[Jipsah]

I've never understood those Christians who think God is some nice old Santa Claus figure who will never hurt or punish anyone.

I'll never understand those who believe that God is a vicious monster who created most of humanity just so He could torture them eternally. Pretty weird, don't you think?

They have no concept of fearing God.

Not for the bogus reason that Eternal Torture proponents come up with, no.

Scripture doesn't contradict scripture. Its plainly stated in Matthew 24:46, that there will be eternal punishment.

Death is pretty much eternal, isn't it? But no, your doctrine denies the Bible, and says "Thou shalt not surely die. You'll have eternal life in hell." It directly contradicts the Scripture.

Nothing anyone can say or do will refute that.

And if the Bible doesn't support what you think that Scripture ought to mean, explain away the Bible, right? "Oh, that's what it says, but what it really means is...". Standard hogwash.

So they only way Annihilationists try to refute it, is by creating their own definition of death.

Nope, we just keep the normal one. The one where dead means "dead", as opposed to the one y'all have made up to get around Scriptures that don't jibe with your doctrine. The one where "death" doesn't mean "death", it means "eternal life while being tortured".

Unfortunately that's not Biblical reality

Funny, it's certainly what the Bible says. But that doesn't count for all that much when it conflicts with your presuppositions, eh?

and it makes absolutely no sense of God's Justice.

The sort of "justice" that sentences most people to eternal torment in flames. Some "justice".

I stand on God's Truth

Would that you did. What you actually stand on is your tradition in contradiction of the Word of God.

 

[OttawaUk]

Biblically, I showed you here how you are incorrect in your Biblical interpretation of death. But you completely avoided what I posted.

I've done everything I can here.

OU

 

[inhisdebt]

None of the ET fans here has addressed any of the Scriptures that say that the sinner dies, except to say "Oh, death doesn't mean death..." or some such baloney. They just kep reciting their doctrine. And once again, a pox on that pagan extra-biblical made-up doctrine.

Your position basicly confuses that of the first death with the second death, if it were true however, there would be no point in a judgment or a second death, yet scripture clearly shows a second death after the judgment. There is no reason for eternal fire, with dead sinners. there is clearly stated scripture that shows a consistant pattern with judgment, followed by eternal punishment in eternal flames. the second death is clearly described you simply deny the truth of it. Your choice

 

[Jipsah]

Biblically, I showed you here how you are incorrect in your Biblical interpretation of death. But you completely avoided what I posted.

Nothing to avoid. You showed me your "interpretation", which is nothing more than a contrivance to evade what the Bible actually says so as to keep your doctrine intact.

I've done everything I can here.

Apparently so.

 

[Jipsah]

Your position basicly confuses that of the first death with the second death, if it were true however, there would be no point in a judgment or a second death, yet scripture clearly shows a second death after the judgment.

You'll have to quibble with God as to whether there's a "point" to the second death or not. I'm content to take Him at His word.

There is no reason for eternal fire, with dead sinners.

Again, you're complaining about what the Bible actually says because it offends against what your tradition says it ought to mean. Nothing I can do about that, take it up with the management.

there is clearly stated scripture to show that shows a consistant pattern with judgment, followed by eternal punishment in eternal flames. the second death is clearly described you simply deny the truth of it. Your choice

And my choice is to go with what the Bible says rather than what your tradition says it ought to mean. I reckon I'm funny like that.

 

[inhisdebt]

You'll have to quibble with God as to whether there's a "point" to the second death or not. I'm content to take Him at His word.

Rev 20v11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 14v10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with FIRE and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name

Again, you're complaining about what the Bible actually says because it offends against what your tradition says it ought to mean. Nothing I can do about that, take it up with the management

Not at all what it says scares the hell out of me, litteraly


And my choice is to go with what the Bible says rather than what your tradition says it ought to mean. I reckon I'm funny like that.

Just close your eyes and stamp your feet and yell!!! there's no place like home, there's no place like home, there's no place like home...

 

[Zadok7000]

I've never understood those Christians who think God is some nice old Santa Claus figure who will never hurt or punish anyone.

Killing someone is not hurting or punishing them? How oddly your mind works...

 

[NumberOneSon]

So how do you annihilationists witness? "Hey you should come to Christ so you can live forever, but you know, if you don't, don't worry about sinning because God's Justice just means that you simply won't exist anymore, no big deal".

I'm not an annihilationist, but I'd imagine that they witness using the gospel, proclaiming that Jesus is the Messiah and declaring newness of life and new birth through Him, not using damnation as a witnessing tool. I remember the Apostles and Disciples in Acts preaching Christ crucified and raised, declaring their testimony, using the Gifts of the Spirit, and debating the scriptures in the Temple as their witnessing tools, but I can't recall a time when they used hellfire and brimstone as a motivational device to gain converts.

I believe knowing God and becoming a new creation in Christ is how we should witness because that is the Good News, and not relying on fear and scare tactics. As the Apostle John said, we love Him because He first loved us. A convert should come to Christ out of love, not fear. We don't love God because we fear eternal torment....that would make our conversion an act of selfishness and desire to escape personal pain, not an act of faith and sumission to God. Does that make sense?

In Christ,

Acts6:5