Is your faith based on a false hope?

[Warrior4ChristAL]

SNIP!!

Can we examine this foundational belief/assumption to see if it is indeed valid?

God was very clear to Daniel that the prophesies he was given was for the END.

The prophesies meant nothing in Daniel's day. God told Daniel to "seal the book". That means, only those at the END would understand it because it hadn't come to pass yet.

Redemption hadn't even come yet. Jesus prophesied also what the END would be like before His Return.

In Daniel 12: 4, Daniel is instructed to close and seal a book. This book is not to be opened until the time of the end of the world. Then, he is told something in regard to what will be happening in those final years.

The Babylon Daniel lived in wasn't the same description as Ancient Babylon.

Remember the vision of the Ten Toes in Daniel? These 10 toes were considered the LATTER KINGS OVER THE EARTH, not the present ones that was ruling at that time.

This goes directly in corrulation with the TEN KINGS of REVELATION.

These prophecies had to be speaking of a Babylon in the future.

There are in reality THREE APPEARANCES OF BABYLON on earth from the flood according to the Bible:


1. Nimrod's Babylon.
2. Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon.
3. Modern Babylon.


Remember you must line up Scripture with Scripture. So, let's look at Jeremiah's description of Babylon


When God gave the prophets the visions of Babylon, they referred to an entity that RISES, FALLS, RISES AND FALLS, AND FINALLY RISES FOR THE LAST TIME AT THE END OF THE AGE, during the last generation of Israel. THAT IS A KEY POINT!


DURING THE LAST GENERATION OF ISRAEL. THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE VISIONS AND PROPHECIES CULMINATE IN A LAST DAY GREAT NATIONAL ENTITY AND WITHIN THAT NATION IS A CITY "MYSTERY BABYLON" Because the latter day BABYLON plays such a key role in ANTICHRIST ACTIVITY upon earth in the LAST DAYS, the vast majority of prophecies from the Old Testament ARE AGAINST THIS LATTER DAY NATION. It is that simple!!


Because Babylon is a SINGULAR NATION that TURNS UPON ITS HERITAGE OF GOD, AND DESTROYS IT TO BECOME THE ANTICHRIST POWER OF THE END TIMES, it is of vital importance that we PROPERLY IDENTIFY WHO THIS NATION IS. One of the crucial prophecies against Babylon the Nation is found in Jeremiah 50. This verse of Scripture is SO STRICT in application that only two nations in the whole world fit it, and they fit WITHIN A VERY NARROW TIME FRAME, and that time frame was given to us by Jesus Himself in the Parable of the Fig Tree. This time parameter is so strict that these nations must fulfill every parameter within an 80 year span!


Stop to think about this; that TWO NATIONS must rise upon the earth, in a proper sequence, and they both must be present during an 80 year time span, do certain things, then it becomes a strict parameter. The events of nation take place over many years, and most nations are quite old!!


"Your mother shall be sore confounded; she that bare you shall be ashamed:


BEHOLD, THE HINDERMOST OF THE NATIONS shall be a wilderness, a dry land and a desert". Jeremiah 50:12


Paul spoke of the same vision from Daniel that Jesus spoke of and then years later John was shown on the Island of Patmos. Remember, someone had to be "sitting in the Temple claiming to be God".

The Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed 2000 years ago and NO ONE was sitting in it claiming to be God.

This was a "future Temple" that the Jews would rebuild in Jerusalem. It hasn't happened yet but they already have plans to rebuild it.

Anyway, I challenge you to read Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah & Revelation because all these match each other speaking of the same Babylon that would be a "future Kingdom" on the earth. Right down to world domination, world trade, world finances and world religion.

Blessings!

 

[thereselittleflower]

God was very clear to Daniel that the prophesies he was given was for the END.

I understand that this is what you believe, but honestly, there is nothing in that book that indicates that all the prophecies he was given were for the end.

In fact, when one looks through hitsory, one can see the fulfillment of the very prophecy of the 70 weeks we are discussing.

The prophesies meant nothing in Daniel's day.

They were for a future time from DANEIL'S perspective. That doesn't mandate they are future from our perspective.

God told Daniel to "seal the book". That means, only those at the END would understand it because it hadn't come to pass yet.

You are assuming that the 'end' in the context it was given refers to the end you envision. However, that is an assumption only.

Redemption hadn't even come yet. Jesus prophesied also what the END would be like before His Return.

Jesus prophesied primarily regarding the destruction of the Temple and the seige of Jerusalem . . the 'end' of the Jewish naiton.

The Christian Church of the 1st century understood the events of 70 AD to indicate that the Jewish Nation was finished and that God had connfirmed, by these events, that all authority had been taken from the Jews and had been given to the Church instead.

In Daniel 12: 4, Daniel is instructed to close and seal a book. This book is not to be opened until the time of the end of the world.

Show me where it says "the end of the world" . .

It doesn't say that. It is ambiguous on its face. It is your assumption that it refers to the end of the world.

Then, he is told something in regard to what will be happening in those final years.

Again, that is your assumption that he is talking about the end of the world.

We are getting off the essential topci again . . that is the foundational claim that the 70th week is still future.

If it isin't, then everything you said above and after this has no real bearing on anything. Everything you are saying is hinged on the beleif that Daniels' 70th week is future.

But all you have done is claim that it is future . . you haven't proven that it is future.


Do you see this?

Anyway, I challenge you to read Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah & Revelation because all these match each other speaking of the same Babylon that would be a "future Kingdom" on the earth.

I spent 30 years reading Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah and Revelation and during that time believed much as you do now. . .

I spent a few years then testing the necessary and underlying assumptions and found they were not valid.

Right down to world domination, world trade, world finances and world religion.

Blessings!

These books do not all talk about the same thing.

It simply seems that way because the underlying assumption that Daniel's 70th week is yet future is accepted as valid without being tested.



Can we examine this foundational belief/assumption that Daniel's 70th week is yet future to see if it is indeed valid?




Peace

 

[Biff]

I haven't had people tell me that at all. As a pretribber, my faith is in Jesus Christ regardless.
Now I have seen some get upset at the comments made against the character of pretribbers themelves and make a foolish statment similar to what you wrote - but that was just hurt speaking.

Now I have seen some get upset at the comments made against the character of pretribbers themelves and make a foolish statment similar to what you wrote - but that was just hurt speaking.

I am so glad that this isn't me.

 

[Biff]

A couple points to consider.

1) Look at most of Jesus' Apostles - they all died horrible deaths and were martyrs. Does that mean God is any less gracious or loving? Certainly not. There was a reason they died that way.

2) Look at the millions of others have been martyred in Christs name over the past 2000 years. Did they get a free ride out? Does this mean God is any less gracious or loving? Certainly not.

3) Look at the word Tribulation. Does tribulation apply for unbelievers? Tribulation is what believers go through in times of testing. Job was tested. Jonah was tested. David was tested. Abraham was tested. Moses was tested. All of God's people go through testing. Does it mean God is any less loving? Certainly not.

God's ways are not our ways.

I am a firm believer that we will be here through the Trib, but it certainly doesn't make God any less loving to me.

Thy Will be done, LORD.

OU

Another thread on how pre-tribbers are wimps and cowards. Nothing about their arguments from scripture and the like... Yes, very mature...

Gee I don't remember calling anyone wimps and cowards!!!

If you want arguments from the scriptures, then you'll want to go here. --

http://www.intergate.com/~subi/prophecy.htm

 

[Biff]

And if you are wrong?


We are to take up our cross and follow Him. WE will suffer tribulation, according to Jesus' own words.


You are expecting a 7 year tribulation followed by the return of Christ and the establishment of a millneial kingdom.


But what if you are wrong?


What if there is a coming great chastisement and Christians are not "raptured out" of it? That's not saying that God won't provide a way for His children to go through it, but at the same time that doesn't mean they are "taken out" of it either.


What if you're wrong about your whole eschatological view? If you are looking to totally escape what may be coming, then how are you preparing to endure it if you don't escape?



Peace

If you are looking to totally escape what may be coming, then how are you preparing to endure it if you don't escape?

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[Biff]

Dear Zadook,

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

For ever and ever is a long, long time.

 

[knownbeforetime]

And if you are wrong?


We are to take up our cross and follow Him. WE will suffer tribulation, according to Jesus' own words.


You are expecting a 7 year tribulation followed by the return of Christ and the establishment of a millneial kingdom.


But what if you are wrong?


What if there is a coming great chastisement and Christians are not "raptured out" of it? That's not saying that God won't provide a way for His children to go through it, but at the same time that doesn't mean they are "taken out" of it either.


What if you're wrong about your whole eschatological view? If you are looking to totally escape what may be coming, then how are you preparing to endure it if you don't escape?



Peace

To take up our cross is to die to one's self and completely follow Jesus. However, Jesus took the wrath of God in our place so we wouldn't have to experience it. With ANY persecution comes perseverence from Holy Spirit to bear through it. These are things I have never denied.

I may be wrong. Who knows truly but God? However, whenever I read about 1 Thess. 4 and 5 and Revelation, I always see the word escape somewhere regarding the church. Escape is the subject of 1 Thess. 4 and 5, not "enduring", "persevering", or "preserved" but "escape". Revelation 3:10 says, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from (ek = "out of", "away from") the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." I would be willing to go through the Tribulation but that is not what I see in scripture. (Reading Left Behind kinda made me want to be a trib saint... )

Well then, we must have had an abusive God all along according to your definition as when God judged a nation, all the inhabitants were affected, the righteous as well as the unjust. Just look at Isarel . . .wheh God judged Israel, what happened to the righteous Jews? They were carried into captivity aswell. They did not escape simply because they had nt done wickedly as their fellow countrymen had done.

God gives wanring so we can be prepared, but just as He didn't pluck the just Jews out of Israel before allowing His judgement to fall, He doesn't just "pluck" us out either. Just as Jesus gave warning of what would happen in 70AD and instructions on what believers were to do to escape Jerusalem, if believers didn't listen and obey, they found themselves trapped along with everyone else in Jerusalem . . . forced into starvation. Those who listened and kept watch saw the army approaching in the distance and immediatelh fled as Jesus had instructed. From what i understand, most fled to what is known now as TransJordan.

Keep in mind that Israel is a unique entity. Israel will go through the Trib, both righteous and unrighteous. A better example would be the judgment of Sodom and Gomorah. Righteous Lot (who, by definition, wasn't a jew) was escorted out of town by two angels who basically said that they absolutely could not do their work unless the righteous were safely away (Gen. 19:22).

Those that demand God to do it there way or show up with THEY SAY SO, have no desire to obey and serve God with their whole heart anyway.

AND POST-TRIBBERS DON'T DO THIS!!! Remember the saying that goes something like, "When you point your finger at someone else, always remember that there are three pointing back at you." This whole thread is about demanding that God do it the post-trib's way (or else the pre-tribbers will get a boost to their already inflated egos).

It's sad because they refuse to get in their Bible and study the Word of God for themselves. They are following people, not Jesus Christ. They want everything easy and everything handed to them without any effort or faith on their part.

SNIP

There is a time to come that those who claim to be "believers" will have their faith tried by fire. There will be a great falling away because they weren't sincere about Christ at all but became "saved" as fire insurance rather than a love and appreciation for what Christ did for them 2000 years ago by paying their debt to God in full.

Those kinds of believers are actually playing a game with God and He can read their heart. I think God might tarry sending Jesus just for that reason. To see who truly do love Him.

I really should report this post. It's absolutely libelous. Is this the only post-trib argument? Is your only argument that pre-tribs are selfish, greedy, nasty, wimps, cowards, illiterate, etc.? Because that's the only argument I see with my limited experience on this forum. No scriptural debate, only attacking the opponent's character. Is this supposed to be Christian behavior?

How about a little of my testimony? I've already had my faith tested in several small ways (definitely in no way compared to the saints serving in dangerous countries). I've seen corrupt pastors and uncaring congregations. My family is politically socialist and atheist and they make fun of my faith. My mother died when I was 14 and while I was still a babe in Christ. But my faith has not wavered one bit (it's actually gotten stronger over the years). God delivered me from depression and a hard-headed rationalism. God tells me that I am a princess and that I am His beloved and that I deserve a lot better than the world can offer me.

So maybe you can see why I get a little ranty when I'm told that pre-tribbers are cowardly and selfish......

Forgive me for being ranty....... I don't sleep well when it gets over 100 degrees......

 

[JesusServant]

The Gospel isn't at question here, what's at question is your idea that Hell or the lake of fire doesn't exist. Read the scriptures, it clearly does exist.

Idolatry = creating a false god.

That website outlines all the scriptures pertaining to Hell, Hades, the pit, and the lake of fire.

As you can clearly see by the words of our Saviour, God has prepared the lake of fire for Satan and his angels.

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS." (Matthew 25:41)

People are going to end up in the eternal lake of fire, along with Satan and his angels. Its in God's Word all over the place.

Make no mistake about it, God is loving, but He is also Just. He will punish sinners, and it will happen in a horrible place of burning and torments. People who have this image of God being a loving Grandfather who will never punish sin have a horribly wrong and un-Biblical image of Him. Therefore a balance is needed - sin should be taken very serious but also the understanding that God is forgiving through the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

OU

No that website misinterprets scripture. Quit twisting my words. I never said half of what you're accusing me of... I never said hell didn't exist... This is why I've been away from this site for so long. A bunch of know-it-all's that have very few reading comprehension skills and hellfire fingers to point at everyone.

That's your business if you want people to burn in an eternal lake of fire or if you want to believe in a god who does. But you're missing a lot of scripture. Love your enemies don't wish them burning forever. Wow. No wonder there are so many atheists. These are the people that "witness" to them.

I'll be sure to think of this though while I'm burning in an eternal hell for your god. Oh wait, I'm not, because of Jesus Christ. He certainly is awesome.

 

[youdahman]

My friends, i see some of you use the bible texts that say we will burn with an ETERNAL FIRE. But i want you guys to consider this text...

Jude:1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Notice Sodom and Gomorrah burned with an eternal fire as well. But that's indeed strange, because is it still burning? OF COURSE NOT. But why did it use eternal fire the way eternal fire is used when in reference to hell?

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Doesn't it start to make sense?
It's obvious that the term 'eternal,' in that context, meant that the effects of the fire were eternal, not the flames.

In that sense, if Sodom and Gomorrah burned with an Eternal Fire, and now at this present time ceases to exist, then in that context if we are to burn with an eternal fire, in the end we shall cease to exist too.

NOW, how about the bible texts that say we shall burn FOREVER AND EVER.

Exodus 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free. 6: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

So let me get this straight, when the servant and the master are in heaven, will the servant for all eternity continue to serve his master that was on earth? OF COURSE NOT. The context means that he shall serve them until he dies!

THus, the text that says we shall burn forever and ever means we shall burn until we DIE!

Consider, i'm in Heaven, but my loved ones are are right next door burning for all eternity... What possible comfort do i have, what possible peace do i have knowing in my head that my mom, my dad, and my brothers are burning for all the ages and ages and ages and ages and ages. No that is not the love of a God who sent His only Son to die for us. That is a sick, sadistic doctrine created none other than by Satan himself.

edit: I must say, one of the most Popular texts which people can memorize front and back is JOHN 3:16
BUt i wonder, DO PEOPLE ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT TEXT?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

why does it say PERISH and not burn for all eternity? WHy is it that proponents of us burning for the rest of eternity not listen to this verse? PERISH. DIE. DEATH. It's really quite simple

The only logical explanation of why people will continue to believe in eternal fire even if they read these bible verses, (and many of the ones i've read in this thread made perfect sense and truly contradict the doctrine of hellfire) is thier church affiliation. They know if it's a false doctrine then that would mean thier church is false, and this is a person who grew up believing it all thier lives.

But my dear brothers and sisters in Christ, remember OUR HISTORY. Imagine how Paul felt when he realized he did err in persecuting christians before his conversion. Remember how Martin Luther felt when he rose against the holy see after many years in the catholic faith. Let us heed the words of Peter, "we ought to obey God, rather than men"

 

[JesusServant]

If anyone is expecting a literal lake of fire with sinners cooking like pieces of bacon for all eternity, you've got another thing coming:

Deut. 4:24
For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Deut. 9:3
Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.

Psalm 50:3
Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 68:2
As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

2Thes. 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Heb. 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.

Rev. 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


The 2nd death is just that - death.
1st death = death of the flesh body
2nd death = death of the soul

Matt. 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

HE is the Life. Reject HIM, and death is the only alternative.

Thank you my friend. I'm too upset to put it so eloquently.

 

[JesusServant]

My friends, i see some of you use the bible texts that say we will burn with an ETERNAL FIRE. But i want you guys to consider this text...

Jude:1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Notice Sodom and Gomorrah burned with an eternal fire as well. But that's indeed strange, because is it still burning? OF COURSE NOT. But why did it use eternal fire the way eternal fire is used when in reference to hell?

2 Peter 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Doesn't it start to make sense?
It's obvious that the term 'eternal,' in that context, meant that the effects of the fire were eternal, not the flames.

In that sense, if Sodom and Gomorrah burned with an Eternal Fire, and now at this present time ceases to exist, then in that context if we are to burn with an eternal fire, in the end we shall cease to exist too.

NOW, how about the bible texts that say we shall burn FOREVER AND EVER.

Exodus 21:5 And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free. 6: Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

So let me get this straight, when the servant and the master are in heaven, will the servant for all eternity continue to serve his master that was on earth? OF COURSE NOT. The context means that he shall serve them until he dies!

THus, the text that says we shall burn forever and ever means we shall burn until we DIE!

Consider, i'm in Heaven, but my loved ones are are right next door burning for all eternity... What possible comfort do i have, what possible peace do i have knowing in my head that my mom, my dad, and my brothers are burning for all the ages and ages and ages and ages and ages. No that is not the love of a God who sent His only Son to die for us. That is a sick, sadistic doctrine created none other than by Satan himself.

edit: I must say, one of the most Popular texts which people can memorize front and back is JOHN 3:16
BUt i wonder, DO PEOPLE ACTUALLY BELIEVE THAT TEXT?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

why does it say PERISH and not burn for all eternity? WHy is it that proponents of us burning for the rest of eternity not listen to this verse? PERISH. DIE. DEATH. It's really quite simple

The only logical explanation of why people will continue to believe in eternal fire even if they read these bible verses, (and many of the ones i've read in this thread made perfect sense and truly contradict the doctrine of hellfire) is thier church affiliation. They know if it's a false doctrine then that would mean thier church is false, and this is a person who grew up believing it all thier lives.

But my dear brothers and sisters in Christ, remember OUR HISTORY. Imagine how Paul felt when he realized he did err in persecuting christians before his conversion. Remember how Martin Luther felt when he rose against the holy see after many years in the catholic faith. Let us heed the words of Peter, "we ought to obey God, rather than men"

You really are dah man!

Normally I would feel bad about hijacking a thread, but that is one area of Christianity that HAS to be taught correctly.

God bless you

 

[Tanleona]

Can't you just feel the love...

The image we should have, apparently, is one of a vicious, merciless, pitiless, relentless fiend who's going to torture those who have offended Him eternally, with no thought of remediation or hope of succor.

No, the image is of a just God who took pity on His creation and in His mercy sent His Son to die for the created. God doesn't send anyone to the Lake of Fire, rather each individual chooses where they will spend eternity by their acceptance or rejection of Jesus Christ.

And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15

3 "Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. 5 "He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." Revelation 3:3,5

Final destination is a choice based on the free will God gave us. Eternity in the Lake of Fire separated from God has nothing to do with God's mercy or his love; rather it has to do with the rejection of that mercy and that love while the person still lived.

 

[JesusServant]

No, the image is of a just God who took pity on His creation and in His mercy sent His Son to die for the created. God doesn't send anyone to the Lake of Fire, rather each individual chooses where they will spend eternity by their acceptance or rejection of Jesus Christ.




Final destination is a choice based on the free will God gave us. Eternity in the Lake of Fire separated from God has nothing to do with God's mercy or his love; rather it has to do with the rejection of that mercy and that love while the person still lived.

There isn't a scripture that says that people will live eternally separated from Him is there? It's an idea of man. It's impossible considering God is everywhere. They will be punished and their soul put to death. Period.

What about some of these 'terrorists'? They are taught from birth all that is NOT the Gospel. They believe that by killing infidels they will receive the gift of Heaven. They don't even know or understand the New Testament of our Bible. Heck, apparently most Christians don't either. I know you'll come back with ignorance as a defense because Jesus said that it is considered.

So according to what Christ says, someone who is ignorant and has been programmed incorrectly will be forgiven. But according to you or your pastor a person who has heard the Gospel (and probably the incorrect Gospel I'm reading here tonight) and doesn't believe it will be tortured for eternity.

I can't even understand eternity. All that I live in and see is finite. I only glean a bit and piece of Heaven and the glory thereof from time to time and a flood of peace fills my soul. But I cannot even fathom living FOREVER. How can you fathom, teach or believe God would torment someone over and over forever. Wow. Unreal.

I tell you here and now, when I get there and Jesus forgives me before the Father for my shortcomings and past sins. If He mentions that others will burn forever and ever (which He won't) I would reject it then. That's a bold statement but I know what I know.

What you forgive will be forgiven you but what you do not forgive will NOT be forgiven you. And if this is true (as Christ said it was) for every human being then everyone would have to forgive everyone wouldn't they.

Crazy talk, I'm a big heretic. Ooga Booga.

 

[OttawaUk]

So now people are debating the definition of the word "eternal"? If that's the case, then you're debating the quesiton of "eternal" life!?

I'm asking you, right now, if God simply destroys a soul, then what is Jesus talking about here?

Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me [nothing] to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 " And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Its right there, its in scripture, you cannot deny it. If anything, this idea you have that people simply cease to exist will give you an indifferent attitude when trying to reach the lost. The scriptural proof of eternal punishment will put even more fire in your shoes to reach people with the Gospel. Chalk up a great deception of Satan's in convincing people that there is no eternal punishment.

More websites detailing the scriptures about eternal punishment for the lost.

http://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html
http://www.jesusisthelight.net/HELLISREAL.htm
http://www.av1611.org/hell.html
http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/hellis.htm
http://www.wolfeborobible.com/hell1.html

Wake up! Satan is deceiving you!!

OU

 

[Jipsah]

So, I guess what you are saying is that you do not believe that God judges sin

Then you've guess wrong yet again. God judges sin. That's from the Bible. But the heathen, pagan-inspired notion of "eternal torture" is purely a made-up doctrine of men and not from Scripture. The Bible says that the soul that sins will die. Our Lord says that God can destroy both body and soul in hell. St. Paul says that the wages of sin is death. Syncretistic doctrine says "the wages of sin is eternal life - under torture." I reckon I'll just believe the Bible on this one. You may do as you please.

Yeah, sounds like MY GOD ALRIGHT!! NOT!!!

You have a God of your own, do you?

You need a little more balanced view on God.

This is where you try and sell me the heathen view of God the Implacable Torturer, right? Sorry, ain't buying any.

While He loves us, He is still Holy and He even says, I would rather that you choose life. However, if you choose death, then you must also live with the consequences of that choice.

So what does the Bible (presumably yours as well as mine) say are the consequences of that choice?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What you're telling me is that that famous verse is wrong, and that those who don't believe not only do not perish as the Bible says, but in fact have eternal life anyway; eternal life under torture.

Your doctrine flatly contradicts the Bible. Now let's see, if I have to choose between your doctrine and what the Bible actually says, which should I pick? Wow, talk about tough decisions!

 

[Jipsah]

Doctrine of man? What!?

"Eternal torture" is a doctrine of man and contradicts Scripture.

These are the words of our Lord Himself in Mark 9:43 "And if your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire."

Nothing about staying there forever, is there?

 

[Jipsah]

Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

What was eternal there, the fire, or the accursed ones? This is a variation on the "thou shalt not surely die" lie, isn't it? The Bible said that the wages of sin is death, and the doctrine says "No, thou shalt not surely die. You'll live and be tortured forever."

 

[Jipsah]

So now people are debating the definition of the word "eternal"? If that's the case, then you're debating the quesiton of "eternal" life!?

The Bible only promises eternal life to the blessed, not to the damned. ET doctrien promises eternal life to everyone, one set in bliss, one set in torture. The Koran suports that sort of thing, the Bible does not.

 

[OttawaUk]

Jipsah, why don't you address this one - which clearly says it will be eternal punishment.

Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels ; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me [nothing] to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 " And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I don't know what God you're worshipping, but the idea that God is going to give Satan, the fallen angels, and all who die in sin a nice eternal non-existence is the most un-Biblical and un-Just image of God I've heard in along time.

Annihilationism is complete heresy and imagine how offending it is to the Lord, who spent six hours on the cross dying to save us from God's Wrath and the punishments of Hell.

So how do you annihilationists witness? "Hey you should come to Christ so you can live forever, but you know, if you don't, don't worry about sinning because God's Justice just means that you simply won't exist anymore, no big deal".

I cannot describe how it makes me feel to hear another Christian say these things. Unbelievable.

OU

 

[Jipsah]

Jipsah, why don't you address this one - which clearly says it will be eternal punishment.

Ottawa, why don't you address this one: "the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life". Your doctrine says that the wages of sin is eternal life under torture.

Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire

Been over over that one, haven't we? The fire is eternal.

46 " And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

So the righteous are going to eternal life, but the damned are not. Unless you believe that what our Lord meant was "Both the righteous, and everyone else, will go to eternal life; the righteous to eternal life in Heaven, the damned to eternal life in horrific torture." But that isn't what He said, is it? He only mentions the righteous having eternal life. Which goes along with everything else in Scripture. The damned are destroyed in hell, the wages of sin is death, the soul that sins will die, the second death, on and on.

Face it, the idea of eternal torture doesn't come from the Bible. It's a syncretistic belief "borrowed" from pagan traditions.

know what God you're worshipping

How many you reckon there are? Dang, you ET folks sound pretty much polytheistic.

he idea that God is going to give Satan, the fallen angels, and all who die in sin a nice eternal non-existence is the most un-Biblical and un-Just image of God I've heard in along time.

Better read that Bible instead of just making passing references to it, then. Apparently there is a lot of stuff in there that would surprise you.

Annihilationism is complete heresy

"Heresy" here meaning, as it usually does "not what my denomination believes", and nothing whatsoever to do with what the Bible or the Creeds say.

and imagine how offending it is to the Lord

"How dare that Korean-redneck disagree with Ottawa's favorite doctrine! Drat him!" Right.

who spent six hours on the cross dying to save us from God's Wrath and the punishments of Hell.

Who spent all that time on the cross so He could save some and torture everyone else forever. Zat sound a little bipolar to you?

So how do you annihilationists witness?

Yeah, I mean how can you present the Good News without threatening people with torture? What a strange concept!

"Hey you should come to Christ so you can live forever, but you know, if you don't, don't worry about sinning because God's Justice just means that you simply won't exist anymore, no big deal".

How about telling them that the gospel is true (Yeah, I know, that violates the ever-so-modern concept of Pragmatic Religion, but, to coin a phrase, to hell with it. The Gospel is true, dadgumit!), that God offers the gift or eternal life, but that without it, one dies. After all, that's whet the Bible says. You reckon we have to embroider on Scripture to give it more oomph, or what?

I cannot describe how it makes me feel to hear another Christian say these things. Unbelievable.

It's the Bible that's saying them, I'm just repeating it. Sorry if that flies in the face of your tradition, but when your tradition contradicts the Bible, then a pox on your tradition.