Is your faith based on a false hope?

[Barraco]

Absolutely not! My faith comes from God derived from what He has spoken "to me". It is solid and unshaken. There is no presumption.
To me, on my belief (post trib) hinges ALL of my Hope.
I know that He is coming again (so that's not a problem) - however I believe that He will appear immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days upon changes in the sun, moon and stars, just as "Jesus Himself" prophesied in Matthew 24.



"Presuming" that they are all in chronological order as you believe! I presume nothing! Presumption is a sin! I always maintain a healthy fear of God and what He says - (Deut.18:20).
Just as the signs of His first coming were there for the prophets to understand when He would come and in what form, so too are the signs all there of His second coming as well, except for the exact day and hour.

So its okay to say that other people presume then? Doen't other people feel as strongly about their fear of God as you do, especially toward their eschatological views?

 

[brother daniel]

So its okay to say that other people presume then? Doen't other people feel as strongly about their fear of God as you do, especially toward their eschatological views?

Beloved,
We waste a lot of time here arguing about how strong we feel about our view.

If we would stick to the word and not substatute words and understandings from non biblical scources we will be on the right track in coming to ONE MIND aqnd ONE heart In Christ Jesus.

Most of us dont understand many things in the bible because we have not yet done our first work in Christ.

I am being chastened daily by the Lord because of the amount of time I have spent leaning to my own understanding.

Do you know how you can tell when you are in the Holy Spirit? He will remind you of what Jesus has said and done.

Jesus tells us about a first resurection of the Saints when he comes in the clouds and every eye shall see him. He tells us that it will follow great tribulation such as the world has never seen. We dont have to guess about anything.

Meanwhile today a country called Israel, is making war against its neighbors as was prophesied.

Most of us who study eschatology expect to see Damascus destroyed as a sign of the end.

With that said. what is important is that we strengthen each other in the faith.
We are going to go through a baptism of FIRE.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[inhisdebt]

InHisDebt,

In Matthew 24:8 Jesus speaks of The Beginning Of Sorrows!
All that happens BEFORE the revelation of antichrist can be attributed to "The Beginning Of Sorrows".
All that happens After he is revealed begins "The Great Tribulation".
Jesus' own words in Matthew 24 agree perfectly with the words given to John in the book of Revelation, starting with the opening of the first seal.
Peter announces the arrival of antichrists in his own day

Note these two things -
Jesus' words - Matthew 24:21-22 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Yes this was in relation to the events of 70ad

with John's words - Revelation 6:7-8 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Exactly when did all this occur???

As i believe i stated earlier , this could be reflective of the events of the persecution of christians by Rome, For many years christians were fed to the animals, and persecuted by rome

 

[Biff]

To InHisDebt,

You have to answer this one --

except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

I see nothing being shortened.
Christians have gone through worse later persecutions by that church in the past 2,000 years than they have in Nero's Rome.

 

[Biff]

So its okay to say that other people presume then?

I never said that. If you recall you are the one who used that word!
You can presume or not presume all To tell you the truth,

 

[Biff]

So its okay to say that other people presume then?

Presume = To believe something to be true: to accept that something is almost certain to be correct even though there is no proof of it, on the grounds that it is extremely likely.

The "word of God" is holy ground.

Acts 7:33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.

The lesson here is for us not to presume anything, but only take what the word of God gives.

 

[inhisdebt]

To InHisDebt,

You have to answer this one --

except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

I see nothing being shortened.
Christians have gone through worse later persecutions by that church in the past 2,000 years than they have in Nero's Rome.

God has always reserved unto himself a remnant, weather this particular statement was focused on 70ad , the tribulation we have already passed through or some tribulation of the future, God has always reserved unto him a remnant of the faithful . My contention is not that tribulations in the future are less sever than those of the past, only that we all pass through tribulations, that this entire span from steven to now is tribulations, the period of the 5th seal. Perhaps the great tribulation is great because of its length as well as its severity.

Some believe that is a referance to the number of days of tribulation. Others believe that due to the events of the heavens after the tribulation, (ie... sun and moon) The days are literaly shortened, less daytime as indecated by the 4th trump.

Rev 8v12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise

I am not conviced yet of either!!! Though i am leaning toward the later, i have not yet fully threshed it out. It would seem to fit as the day of the lord starts with the sun going down at noon.

 

[Barraco]

Presume = To believe something to be true: to accept that something is almost certain to be correct even though there is no proof of it, on the grounds that it is extremely likely.

The "word of God" is holy ground.

Acts 7:33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.

The lesson here is for us not to presume anything, but only take what the word of God gives.

I think the proof is historical. Do you really think God would wait over 2,000 years to start working? That sounds like a presumption as well. And no, I never read up on Jehovah Witnesses views. What is important is not speculating whether God has been opening the seals, but allowing yourself to see them in reality. God has been opening seals since he ascended into heaven. To think otherwise is to make God out to be inconsiderate those who suffer until then, for they would not be avenged. It would make God out to look like he chose not to do something until the days immediately preceeding Jesus's return or some wierd rapture based theory on how the world will end. Jesus made it clear in Luke 21 and Matthew 25, that the world will not be aware of his coming, even if they are looking for it. He said the nations would be distressed and perplexed, which indicates they may not realize that Jesus is coming because they will be too worried about what is going on on earth. God bless

 

[Barraco]

I never said that. If you recall you are the one who used that word!
You can presume or not presume all To tell you the truth,

You're belief in the opening of the seals is based totally on a presumption.
What is important is NOT what makes sense from the human side, but what God says, and does according to His will. Your take also seems to be the take similar to the Jehovah Witnesses

Ring a bell?

 

[Biff]

Seeing this, would it make sense to say that Christ is waiting until over 2,000 years to start doing things?

Ring a bell?

Let me refresh you -

"Presumption" -- something believed without actual evidence: a belief based on the fact that something is considered to be extremely reasonable or likely

 

[Biff]

What follows the shortening of those days is this --

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

"Immediately after those days!"

What happened then in the sun, moon, stars, and why hasn't Jesus returned like lightning as He said???

Now you said that the tribulation occured during the reign of the Caesar's.
I disagree. Surely by now you know why!?

 

[inhisdebt]

What follows the shortening of those days is this --

Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

"Immediately after those days!"

What happened then in the sun, moon, stars, and why hasn't Jesus returned like lightning as He said???

Now you said that the tribulation occured during the reign of the Caesar's.
I disagree. Surely by now you know why!?

That is in part my point the tribulation has not ceased since those days, it has continued all along the way. my claim is not that the tribulation is over but that we are still in tribulation.

Danial11v31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Danial 11 shows that the tribulation of the saints begins after the AoD, and continues on untill the time of the end. This referance is used a couple of times in scripture, it is typically much longer than 3 1/2 years. the only referance that points to a 7 year trib is

danial 9v 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

But this is not a referance to the AC it is a ref to christ. It was christ that confimed the covenant with many for one week and was cut off, in the midst, his days were cut short, and ended the daily sacrifice, remember the curtain was rent in two at the cross. the need for animal sacrifices was gone.
So with no 7 year event to bracket our understanding of eschetoligy we must rethink and re-evaluate the entire scenario, once done you will see that the times of the gentils is not a 3 1/2 year period but about 2000 years and going, and a look at history would show that the persecution of the jews and christians has only grown since that time. I know it sounds like a lot to swallow And i dont expect to convince you, but do yourself a favor and go back and rectify the passages about the AoD in danial 9, and 12.

 

[Biff]

Dear InHisDebt,

You said that the persecution or tribulation of Christians has been going on for nearly 2,000 years.

I TOTALLY AGREE!

However, brother, what we have been speaking about is the one event that Jesus describes as THE GREAT TRIBULATION....

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The word "THEN" is when Jesus says this Great Tribulation will occur.

Now it is clear to what He refers to as... "THEN"...

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) (Dan.11:31-32 @ 2 Thes.2:1-3)

You see, my brother, "Until Then" The "GREAT" Tribulation will not begin.
The AC has to be on the scene to set up the A. of D.! (Think about what I am saying here before you doubt what Paul says.)

There is only One AC, and One FP, and they are yet future. Proof? They are both destroyed by the Appearance of Christ and thrown into the lake of fire.

Also, can you show me this "covenant" that the Romans back then supposedly made with the Jews? (Dan.9:27)

Look again at the PROOF --

Daniel 8:23-25 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Question - When was Jerusalem ever destroyed in the past by PEACE? War, yes! Peace, no!

Daniel 8 is a picture of the antichrist of the last days, whom the Lord will consume with the spirit of His mouth, and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thes.2:8)

and if you should think that this isn't the antichrist, I refer you to --

Revelation 13:4-7 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

He will appear and continue for 42 months!
Not 2,000 years.

 

[inhisdebt]

Dear InHisDebt,

You said that the persecution or tribulation of Christians has been going on for nearly 2,000 years.

I TOTALLY AGREE!

Cool

However, brother, what we have been speaking about is the one event that Jesus describes as THE GREAT TRIBULATION....

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The word "THEN" is when Jesus says this Great Tribulation will occur.

Now it is clear to what He refers to as... "THEN"...

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) (Dan.11:31-32 @ 2 Thes.2:1-3)

Yes but is this the tribulation spoken of in referance to Mathew 24 v 29 ? No Both Mathew and Mark show a period of false prophets and deception that lead up to mathew 24 v 29
You see, my brother, "Until Then" The "GREAT" Tribulation will not begin.
The AC has to be on the scene to set up the A. of D.! (Think about what I am saying here before you doubt what Paul says.)

There is only One AC, and One FP, and they are yet future. Proof? They are both destroyed by the Appearance of Christ and thrown into the lake of fire.

Also, can you show me this "covenant" that the Romans back then supposedly made with the Jews? (Dan.9:27)

Look again at the PROOF --

Daniel 8:23-25 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Your making asumptions now that the period with the false perophet and the AoD are the same??
Question - When was Jerusalem ever destroyed in the past by PEACE? War, yes! Peace, no!

Daniel 8 is a picture of the antichrist of the last days, whom the Lord will consume with the spirit of His mouth, and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (2 Thes.2:8)

and if you should think that this isn't the antichrist, I refer you to --

Revelation 13:4-7 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

He will appear and continue for 42 months!
Not 2,000 years.

Agreed, we are still waiting for that part of the tribulation the last 3 1/2 years with the False prophet and AC that leads to Mathew 24v29. I'm not full preterist that stuff is just plain crazy.

 

[inhisdebt]

I fail to see the connection between the AOD and the false prophet do you know of any scripture that ties them together. You see the futeristic scenario is so commonly understood no one questions it, a 7 year trib with the AC, and FP the AoD in the middle, But Rev never talks about the AoD, it focuses on the FP and the AC, Yet the AoD is not mentioned, that makes no sense unless the AOD is not the end we think it is.

 

[Barraco]

Cool
Agreed, we are still waiting for that part of the tribulation the last 3 1/2 years with the False prophet and AC that leads to Mathew 24v29. I'm not full preterist that stuff is just plain crazy.

are we? If you read that scripture over again, you may have skipped a few points.

Point number, those verses are not about the mouth, but are about the beast. Notice that the mouth is GIVEN to the beast and allowed to continue ON THE BEAST for 42 months. It didn't say that the mouth would cease to exist, for 2 Thessalonians 2 makes it as obviously as Rev. 19 that the false prophet will be destroyed with the beast at Christ's coming.

The Roman Empire as well as the ten divisions make up the fourth beast of Daniel 7, as well as the first and second beast of chapter 13. In 538, when the Byzantine Empire took Rome from the Ostrogoths and conquered other kingdoms, the bishop of Rome (pope) was set in command of the city. Not only this, he was made a superior spiritual authority within the empire itself. Thus was a MOUTH (which speaks great things and blasphemes God) GIVEN TO the beast. If you move 1260 years from after this point, you will come to 1798, which was when the pope was captured along with the papal states. He did not gain his seat back until after 1814, but the Roman Empire fell and was changed to the Confederacy of the Rhine by Napoleon, which accurately fulfills the 42 months of power OVER the Roman Empire. God bless

 

[Barraco]

Ring a bell?

Let me refresh you -

"Presumption" -- something believed without actual evidence: a belief based on the fact that something is considered to be extremely reasonable or likely

Which would turn out to be everyone's interpretation, even yours. You are judging what could possibly be the Holy Spirit at work as a presumption without giving it much thought. Is it that I'm presuming, or is that many have built their views on limitations made in scholastic interpretation? Such as amil, premil, postmil, pretrib, midtrib, postrib, ect. ect.? Don't find all this a bit playful? What is also good to note is that interpreting Revelation came first as a defence of the Church of Rome to combat accusations made against the pope and the church of Rome by the Protestants. Thats where preterism and futurism come from. That is also where alot of teachings have derived from. This all came about from the Catholic Counter-Reformation. Keep this mind, keep an open mind. God bless

 

[inhisdebt]

are we? If you read that scripture over again, you may have skipped a few points.

My response was to biff not you

Point number, those verses are not about the mouth, but are about the beast. Notice that the mouth is GIVEN to the beast and allowed to continue ON THE BEAST for 42 months. It didn't say that the mouth would cease to exist, for 2 Thessalonians 2 makes it as obviously as Rev. 19 that the false prophet will be destroyed with the beast at Christ's coming.

The Roman Empire as well as the ten divisions make up the fourth beast of Daniel 7, as well as the first and second beast of chapter 13. In 538, when the Byzantine Empire took Rome from the Ostrogoths and conquered other kingdoms, the bishop of Rome (pope) was set in command of the city. Not only this, he was made a superior spiritual authority within the empire itself. Thus was a MOUTH (which speaks great things and blasphemes God) GIVEN TO the beast. If you move 1260 years from after this point, you will come to 1798, which was when the pope was captured along with the papal states. He did not gain his seat back until after 1814, but the Roman Empire fell and was changed to the Confederacy of the Rhine by Napoleon, which accurately fulfills the 42 months of power OVER the Roman Empire. God bless

I dont by into your hystorisict views. i dont accept your 1260 years there is no scripture to support a day for a year in this application. You cant randomly throw this stuff together you need cross suporting scripture. The appearance of the beast, Fp and two witnesses, is yet to come in a future 3 1/2 year trib .

 

[Barraco]

I dont by into your hystorisict views. i dont accept your 1260 years there is no scripture to support a day for a year in this application. You cant randomly throw this stuff together you need cross suporting scripture. The appearance of the beast, Fp and two witnesses, is yet to come in a future 3 1/2 year trib .

so you think God has been waiting all this time, while his children have been suffering, praying, being murdered. You expect his kingdom to just stay on standby.

You don't think that God fulfilled his word in time by the ignorance of man? And don't you think God would have mentioned the coming of the papacy and the great martydom of the dark ages.

I think God's word has been fulfilled throughout time and I HIGHLY DOUBT that any man is going to rule the world any more. That is just calling mankind ignorant. Why do you think the League of Nations was formed?

 

[inhisdebt]

so you think God has been waiting all this time, while his children have been suffering, praying, being murdered. You expect his kingdom to just stay on standby.

You don't think that God fulfilled his word in time by the ignorance of man? And don't you think God would have mentioned the coming of the papacy and the great martydom of the dark ages.

I think God's word has been fulfilled throughout time and I HIGHLY DOUBT that any man is going to rule the world any more. That is just calling mankind ignorant. Why do you think the League of Nations was formed?

No, We are in the times of the gentils now, waiting for the fulness of the gentils to be complete, the 5th seal, danial( 11v35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed) and the final 3 1/2 years of trib with the B, FP, And 2 witnesses. Do you have scripture to directly permit this day for a year calculation or not because without it you are clearly taking liberties with the scripture that you should be ashamed of ( maybe even adding to it).