Is water baptism a requirment to be saved

[Der Alte]

Looking at the sequence of events in Acts 16, when the jailer was commanded to believe in v31 he had not yet been told/heard what to believe. It is not until v32 the "word of the Lord" was spoken unto him. Baptism is part of the word of the Lord spoken to him, as Phillip preached "Jesus" (Acts 8:35) to the eunuch who was then baptized.

Interesting assumptions but Peter said nothing about baptism to the eunuch and Paul said nothing about baptism to the Philippian jailer.

Preaching "Jesus" and speaking the "word of the Lord" is preaching baptism.

Please show me scripture which states that "speaking the 'word of the Lord' is preaching baptism?" Something that was written later to other places should not be confounded with earlier unrelated verses.

Acts 16:34 "And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God." The participle "having believed" includes what the jailer had just did, repenting (washing stripes) and being baptized. It cannot be ignored what the jailer did in v33.
NT belief/faith includes baptism:
Ephesians 2:8------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1 Peter 3:21--------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>saves
Since there is just one way to be saved, then faith MUST include baptism.
Acts 10:43--------believeth>>>>>>>>>remission of sins
Acts 2:38---------baptized>>>>>>>>>remission of sins
Again, since there is just one way to be saved, then believeth MUST include baptism.
Acts 2:41 "

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:..."
Acts 2:44 "And all that believed were together,...."
In verse 44, who were the ones that are said to have "believed"? The ones that accepted Peter's words and were baptized or the ones that rejected Peter's words and not baptized? Of course the ones that are said to have "believed" in v44 are the ones baptized in v41. So "believed" in v44 is used as a figure of speech, a synecdoche where a part stands for the whole, where believe stands for repentance confession and baptism. Much like Peter said in 1 Peter 3:21 that baptism saves, yet Peter is not saying baptism alone saves. Baptism is used as a synedoche where it includes belief, repentance and confession.
Note also the language of v41. The ones NOT baptized did NOT receive the word. Therefore being baptized IS receiving the gospel.
Lastly, Christ never taught belief only saves. He made repentance, Luke 13:3; confession Matthew 10:32-33 and baptism Mark 16:16 of equal importance and necessity in being saved. Paul did not contradict Christ on this matter either.

All the belief only in the world will never save an impenitent person, the thief could never be saved without repenting.

I have not been discussing repentance but the topic of this thread "Is water baptism a requirment [sic] to be saved" What Peter said in his later letter is not relevant unless you can show where the jailer had access to that letter.

 

[LoveofTruth]

John 3:5--------Spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1 Cor 12:13----Spirit+++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5--------Holy Ghost+++++++laver of water>>>>>>saved

Since there is just one way to be saved/born again, than all three 'born again' verse here must say the same thing. When comparing them it become obvious that 'water' refers water baptism, a laver of water. Later in the context of Jn 3 I see that John was baptizing people in much water John 3:22-23. Pharisees, as Nicodemus, were not born again for they rejected John's water baptism, Luke 7:30.

Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Born of water & Spirit>>>>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom
Doeth the will of the Father>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom

There is one way to enter the kingdom/be saved. Obeying by submitting to water baptized is DOING as the Father commanded (Acts 2:38; Acts 10:47-48). There is no being born again without DOING.

wrong on many points here.

All believers are born again by the word of God, the word is spirit as Jesus said in John 6 and peter showed the new birth by the word of God in 1 peter 1 and James spoke this also.

the hard part for you to answer is why jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit. Jesus spoke of two births in that chapter as it is clearly shown

we are not to add works to the gospel

'read 1 Cor 15 and see the true saving gospel, and show me water baptism , or circumcision, or law of Moses for salvation etc.

 

[TheSeabass]

If you read John 6 you'll find out both the WORK
and the WILL of GOD

I also would like to remind of the TRUTH that those who love their lives will lose it and those who lose their lives for HIM and THE GOSPEL will find it and keep it to eternal life

Seek first HIS KINGDOM and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS

What type of "work" are you declaring we should do?

Jn 6:27 "Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed."

Jesus said to work for the food that endures unto everlasting life. Christ ends the discussion on the necessity of works in being saved.

Jesus commands these people in v27 to WORK and they ask " What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" They simple ask in Jesus in v28 what is the work He commanded them to do in v27 and in v29 Jesus tells them the work that are to do: believe.

 

[miknik5]

Looking at the sequence of events in Acts 16, when the jailer was commanded to believe in v31 he had not yet been told/heard what to believe. It is not until v32 the "word of the Lord" was spoken unto him. Baptism is part of the word of the Lord spoken to him, as Phillip preached "Jesus" (Acts 8:35) to the eunuch who was then baptized. Preaching "Jesus" and speaking the "word of the Lord" is preaching baptism. Acts 16:34 "And he brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his house, having believed in God." The participle "having believed" includes what the jailer had just did, repenting (washing stripes) and being baptized. It cannot be ignored what the jailer did in v33.

NT belief/faith includes baptism:

Ephesians 2:8------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1 Peter 3:21--------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, then faith MUST include baptism.

Acts 10:43--------believeth>>>>>>>>>remission of sins
Acts 2:38---------baptized>>>>>>>>>remission of sins

Again, since there is just one way to be saved, then believeth MUST include baptism.

Acts 2:41 "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:..."
Acts 2:44 "And all that believed were together,...."

In verse 44, who were the ones that are said to have "believed"? The ones that accepted Peter's words and were baptized or the ones that rejected Peter's words and not baptized? Of course the ones that are said to have "believed" in v44 are the ones baptized in v41. So "believed" in v44 is used as a figure of speech, a synecdoche where a part stands for the whole, where believe stands for repentance confession and baptism. Much like Peter said in 1 Peter 3:21 that baptism saves, yet Peter is not saying baptism alone saves. Baptism is used as a synedoche where it includes belief, repentance and confession.

Note also the language of v41. The ones NOT baptized did NOT receive the word. Therefore being baptized IS receiving the gospel.

Lastly, Christ never taught belief only saves. He made repentance, Luke 13:3; confession Matthew 10:32-33 and baptism Mark 16:16 of equal importance and necessity in being saved. Paul did not contradict Christ on this matter either. All the belief only in the world will never save an impenitent person, the thief could never be saved without repenting.

FIRSTLY

CHRIST taught belief in HIM saves

JOHN 7:38-39
(Just one thing HE said of those who would believe)

In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

 

[sdowney717]

Those who say water baptism is a salvation necessity, believe in 'water baptismal regeneration'
or 'water baptismal born of God rebirth'
That is a strange doctrine.

We are only regenerated and made clean by the washing of water by the WORD, the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Ghost taught in Ephesians and Titus. Such persons are then found to be in Christ and do not come under judgement having passed from death to life, simply because they believe Christ who saves them from the sins.

All these baptismal regenerators can not refute Christ's words about how those who believe have eternal life, examples in John 3, John 5, John 6 or Paul's doctrine of justification by the blood of Christ in Romans 3.
And many other places. They are simply adding on a good work requirement.

 

[miknik5]

Here's another TRUTH that CHRIST said regarding those who would believe in HIM for LIFE:
John 5
21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That all menshould honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[TheSeabass]

Interesting assumptions but Peter said nothing about baptism to the eunuch and Paul said nothing about baptism to the Philippian jailer.


Please show me scripture which states that "speaking the 'word of the Lord' is preaching baptism?" Something that was written later to other places should not be confounded with earlier unrelated verses.

The eunuch and jailer were not baptized for no reason or not taught about baptism.

Phillip taught "Jesus" and Paul spoke the "word of the Lord" and immediately afterwards they were baptized Therefore it is no coincidence they were baptized. From Christ's great commission (Mat 28:19,20; Mark 16:15-16) baptism is how disciples are made. Also, the disciples in the great commission were told to teach new disciples to " to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you" which includes baptism which Christ commanded. If Paul and Phillip did not teach baptism then they failed at what the Lord told them to do in the great commission.

I have not been discussing repentance but the topic of this thread "

Is water baptism a requirment [sic] to be saved" What Peter said in his later letter is not relevant unless you can show where the jailer had access to that letter.

What Peter says certainly is relevant. I gave ample verse fro the bible that prove belief includes baptism and you did not refute any of them but try to brush them off as not relevant.


Again, Christ NEVER taught belief only and neither did His disciples including Paul and Peter.

 

[miknik5]

Jn 6:27 "Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed."

Jesus said to work for the food that endures unto everlasting life. Christ ends the discussion on the necessity of works in being saved.

Jesus commands these people in v27 to WORK and they ask " What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" They simple ask in Jesus in v28 what is the work He commanded them to do in v27 and in v29 Jesus tells them the work that are to do: believe.

Did you say belief in HIM is not what saves but we must do to somehow earn or validate or be confident in our salvation?

John 6 says both the will and the work of GOD are to believe in HIM that those who look to THE DON and believe HE will raise up on the last day

Those who hope and whose hope is in HIM are actually receiving the GOAL OF THEIR FAITH

Also with regards to the prisoner who believed you say he was baptized

But was it with water?

Or through belief that he was BAPTIZED by GOD and THE SPIRIT attested to this TRUTH

 

[miknik5]

The eunuch and jailer were not baptized for no reason or not taught about baptism.

Phillip taught "Jesus" and Paul spoke the "word of the Lord" and immediately afterwards they were baptized Therefore it is no coincidence they were baptized. From Christ's great commission (Mat 28:19,20; Mark 16:15-16) baptism is how disciples are made. Also, the disciples in the great commission were told to teach new disciples to " to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you" which includes baptism which Christ commanded. If Paul and Phillip did not teach baptism then they failed at what the Lord told them to do in the great commission.



What Peter says certainly is relevant. I gave ample verse fro the bible that prove belief includes baptism and you did not refute any of them but try to brush them off as not relevant.


Again, Christ NEVER taught belief only and neither did His disciples including Paul and Peter.

What did you think our faith is in?

 

[larssc]

It is truly amazing how there can be so many interpretations of "born of water and of the Spirit." My reading has always been as a parallel to the next verse. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Leave the water completely out and the gist is just as clear. Man must be Spiritually regenerated. That is initiated and completed totally in and by God's Grace. Where God wills, like the wind blowing "wear it listeth." God given faith justifies, not baptism.

I think Jesus is referencing something to which Nicodemus could relate.
Ezekiel 36 :

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[TheSeabass]

wrong on many points here.

All believers are born again by the word of God, the word is spirit as Jesus said in John 6 and peter showed the new birth by the word of God in 1 peter 1 and James spoke this also.

the hard part for you to answer is why jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit. Jesus spoke of two births in that chapter as it is clearly shown

we are not to add works to the gospel

'read 1 Cor 15 and see the true saving gospel, and show me water baptism , or circumcision, or law of Moses for salvation etc.

John 3:5 mentions one baptism (one birth) that has 2 elements: 1) water 2) Spirit.
The physical birth (corruptible seed) has nothing to do with this one birth 1 Peter 1:23

I have shown by comparing born again verses how "water" of Jn 3:5 is water baptism. So the element water refers to baptism. The role of the Spirit is that the Spirit is the author of the word that instructs men on how to be saved, hence men are born again by the word....the Corinthians were begotten through the gospel.

The gospel is to be obeyed 1 Thessalonians 1:8 and it takes works to obey.

I read 1 Cor 15:1-6 and I did not see the word grace specifically mentioned or the blood of Christ or repentance, confession, etc. So does that mean these are all unnecessary to salvation? Hardly.

 

[TheSeabass]

Those who say water baptism is a salvation necessity, believe in 'water baptismal regeneration'
or 'water baptismal born of God rebirth'
That is a strange doctrine.

We are only regenerated and made clean by the washing of water by the WORD, the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Ghost taught in Ephesians and Titus. Such persons are then found to be in Christ and do not come under judgement having passed from death to life, simply because they believe Christ who saves them from the sins.

All these baptismal regenerators can not refute Christ's words about how those who believe have eternal life, examples in John 3, John 5, John 6 or Paul's doctrine of justification by the blood of Christ in Romans 3.
And many other places. They are simply adding on a good work requirement.

It would help if you would define what you mean by "baptismal regeneration" for it means different things to different people. For myself, the water has nothing to do with a person's sins being washed away, it is because of the ACT of obedience in submitting to the will of God in being water baptism that God removes the body of sin when one is baptized Colossians 2:11-14. Likewise the water had nothing to do with curing Naaman's disease, yet it was his ACT of obedience in submitting to the will of God in dipping 7 times in the river that God cleansed his disease.

Nowhere ever did Christ tell anyone to believe only and be saved. Such an idea has Christ contradicting Himself for Christ made belief Jn 8:24 repentance Luke 13:3 confession Mt 10:32-33 and baptism Mk 16:16 of all equal importance and necessity in being saved. Will all the belief only in the world save an impenitent person

 

[TheSeabass]

Here's another TRUTH that CHRIST said regarding those who would believe in HIM for LIFE:
John 5
21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23That all menshould honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Does Jn 5:24 negate the need for one to repent to be saved Luke 13:3?... to confess to be saved Matthew 10:32-33? ....be baptized to be saved Mark 16:16?

 

[TheSeabass]

What did you think our faith is in?

One's faith is to be based upon the NT gospel.

 

[TheSeabass]

It is truly amazing how there can be so many interpretations of "born of water and of the Spirit." My reading has always been as a parallel to the next verse. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Leave the water completely out and the gist is just as clear. Man must be Spiritually regenerated. That is initiated and completed totally in and by God's Grace. Where God wills, like the wind blowing "wear it listeth." God given faith justifies, not baptism.

I think Jesus is referencing something to which Nicodemus could relate.
Ezekiel 36 :

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

One cannot "leave the water completely out" for Jesus said it and it refers to water baptism:

Jn 3:5---------------spirit+++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor12:13---------Spirit++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>in the body
Tts 3:5----------Holy Spirit++++++laver of water>>>>>>>>>saved

Three 'born again' verses and since there is just one way to be saved (born again) then all three MUST MUST MUST say the same thing therefore "water" is clearly a reference to water baptism - laver of water.
Of note in Tts 3:5 Paul uses the Greek word loutron and it is again used only in Ephesians 5:26 and refers to a bath, a laver, a container of water-a baptismal font.

 

[miknik5]

It is truly amazing how there can be so many interpretations of "born of water and of the Spirit." My reading has always been as a parallel to the next verse. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Leave the water completely out and the gist is just as clear. Man must be Spiritually regenerated. That is initiated and completed totally in and by God's Grace. Where God wills, like the wind blowing "wear it listeth." God given faith justifies, not baptism.

I think Jesus is referencing something to which Nicodemus could relate.
Ezekiel 36 :

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

NEW COVENANT RELATIONSHIP

PERSONAL COVENANT BETWEEN THE SERVANT AND HIS/HER MASTER

...THANKFULLY between THE SERVANT AND HIS/HER MASTER

 

[miknik5]

One's faith is to be based upon the NT gospel.

LOL

Ones faith is to be directed in and on the WORK of CHRIST
Ones faith is to be proved genuine
Ones faith is to be on THE ONE whom they look to and long for HIS COMING

Those whose faith is not in and on HIM will not wait and REMAIN in HIM. trusting by and walking by that faith directed in and on HIM
in all things

 

[TheSeabass]

LOL

Ones faith is to be directed in and on the WORK of CHRIST
Ones faith is to be proved genuine
Ones faith is to be on THE ONE whom they look to and long for HIS COMING

Those whose faith is not in and on HIM will not wait and REMAIN in HIM. trusting by and walking by that faith directed in and on HIM
in all things

What is LOL about one having his faith based in the gospel?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Hold on there, you said we must make ourselves clean as a requirement
"It is required of the believer, upon receiving His Word and is done for the remission of sins, creating a fully clean vessel for a complete indwelling of the Holy Spirit. "

Christ says though to His people before they were baptized into Christ this.
John 15:3 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
3 Now ye are clean through the Word which I have spoken unto you.
John's baptism was insufficient, so don't tell me they were water baptized into the church.

And the mention of
1 Corinthians 12:12-14 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we are Jews or Gentiles, whether we are bond or free, and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Clearly not water baptism since it says that baptism was done by one Spirit, (not a man) that is Christ who baptizes us by the Holy Spirit into His church.

It was a mouthful in a short sentence, but yes. The purpose of Baptism is to prepare the way "in us" for the Lord, which alludes to the remission of sins. Which is very literally what the Baptizer said he was doing. As such it is required for the new believer, and in Protestant theology the believer rising out of that water is "saved".
Assuming no deception on their part (true belief...etc), if they dropped dead the next instant that person is now a saint in Heaven.(small s - another thread plz)

So yes Baptism is required, it actually does something- full remissions of all sins which "prepares us" for a complete indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In Catholic theology, the person rising from the water of a valid Baptism, having a Grace applied by God on them for all their prior sins in completion of that act, is in a "state of Grace". Which means that person has been fully restored to a full relationship with their Maker - which goes toward the notion of what Protestants call "saved".

That is also the concept behind saying someone is "Full of Grace", as in there is room for no more. We can be less "full" in that sense because we lose the fullness of that state when we sin, and that loss can be gradual or abrupt depending on not a few things including severity, amount, complicity....etc. (another thread plz). In this teaching we could reach a point in sinning where the Spirit no longer abides with us (no debate plz, start another thread). We can regain that state of Grace by confessing our sins, making us new again just like our one Baptism did, at least to the extent we are sincere in our repentance of all our sins(plz another thread for questions). So it is possible we could become "Full of Grace" again after sinning post Baptism. In this state again, the Protestant would say that person is "saved" or some might indirectly say "really saved this time". The Grace received from truly repenting allows the Spirit to once again return. But it is a continual process as we tend not to stop sinning. Anyway, more detail than necessary perhaps but hopefully that is fairly accurate and too very brief Catholic 101 on the matter.

 

[miknik5]

And what are you questioning about one having their faith in CHRIST and the MESSAGE of THE CROSS

(Which is the HIDDEN WISDOM (and POWER) of GOD for all who believe?)