Is watching Mixed Martial Arts wrong?

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Do I think participating in these activities is sin? Depends upon why you're participating and what you do in the course of your participation. All of these things are used in UFC fighting, I understand, but this no more means UFC fighting is all right than saying a poison cake is all right because it is made of good and wholesome things like sugar, flour, eggs, milk, etc.

Is Participating in High School Wrestling a Sin ? Yes or No

 

[aiki]

No, I'm not implying that he did. But he was involved in at least one physical altercation in which he used a whip, overturned tables, and ran money changers out of the temple courts. We don't have all the details of that, unfortunately. They would be useful for this debate.

Would it? I'm not so sure. What Jesus did in the temple was not self-defense nor was it glorifying violence through entertainment. His violence was against the evil that had overtaken the temple; his violence was an act of holy cleansing and correction. He was not expressing the vanity, greed, and lust for power and violence that is at the heart of UFC fighting.

 

[Polar Bear Quest]

What do you enjoy about it?



What guidance does God's word give to you?

2 Timothy 2:24-25
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

James 3:17-18
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.
18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

These are just a few of the verses one could muster in response to your question about watching MMA/UFC fighting. How is the violence, glory-seeking and opponent-crushing aims of this "sport" at all in keeping with biblical commands - not suggestions - to disciples of Christ to be gentle, humble, and peaceable?



Giving glory to God or thanking Jesus for success in smashing an opponent into submission or unconsciousness does not sanctify and/or make doing so right. Many neo-nazis claim an affiliation to things Christian, too. Are their violent, racist beliefs okay, then? If Hitler had praised Jesus for his success in killing six million Jews, would we give his mass-murdering a pass? Of course not. Lots of Christians do a wide host of things that are wrong all the time! Doing so while at the same time claiming allegiance to Christ does not make those wrong things that they do suddenly right.



Philippians 4:8
8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Thanks for the long intricate response man. Personally, I love the sport for the technical aspects, discussing the sport on other forums, and of course I do enjoy the violent aspects, it's just an inherent part of the sport.

Your post a long with many others have made me realize that the sport is harmful and it's something I don't need to watch. It's going to be difficult to move on from the sport I'll admit but I've given up other things I've loved like MTG and other card games so I feel if I pray I'll be able to move on from this as well.

 

[Sketcher]

He was not expressing the vanity, greed, and lust for power and violence that is at the heart of UFC fighting.

You say vanity, greed, and lust for power are at the heart of it. Would you say the desire to be a champion can be free of those things, and therefore not sin, generally speaking?

 

[aiki]

You say vanity, greed, and lust for power are at the heart of it. Would you say the desire to be a champion can be free of those things, and therefore not sin, generally speaking?

What's the point of being champion in anything the World promotes? Being, say, a world-class champion weightlifter, requires such an extreme level of investment in just one thing - a thing that is temporal rather than eternal and focused upon the creature rather than the Creator - that I can't see how it could be anything other than sinful. I have known a few people who were national and international-caliber athletes. They had little or no room for anything else in their lives but their own particular realm of training and competition. How does this fulfill God's eternal purposes? How is this not making an idol of an ultimately pointless, self-centered goal? My Mom used to say to me again and again as I was growing up,

"Only one life, 'twill soon be past.
Only what's done for Christ will last."

If this is true - and Scripture says it is - investing in myself, in my powers, and abilities, and skills to the exclusion of all other concerns seems to me to necessitate a denial of the truth of my Mom's words.

What do you think?

 

[aiki]

Thanks for the long intricate response man. Personally, I love the sport for the technical aspects, discussing the sport on other forums, and of course I do enjoy the violent aspects, it's just an inherent part of the sport.

Well, here's the thing: I was, until three years ago, a martial arts/self-defense instructor. I had operated my own dojo for almost thirty years. So, I get your interest in the technical aspects of fighting, though I've never liked violence. My training and teaching was never with the aim of sport fighting, fighting for entertainment, or for public accolades and competition. My focus was always on self-defense and on defending those who needed defending but could not properly defend themselves. It was also focused on "polishing character": facing fear, pain, anger, pride and learning how not to be controlled by these things. The idea of harming a person for the sake of pride, for the sake of bragging rights, and/or to demonstrate superiority and/or to exert power over another is abhorrent to me. Doing so certainly doesn't accord with the call of God upon
His children to live in holiness, peace, gentleness, humility and love.

Your post a long with many others have made me realize that the sport is harmful and it's something I don't need to watch. It's going to be difficult to move on from the sport I'll admit but I've given up other things I've loved like MTG and other card games so I feel if I pray I'll be able to move on from this as well.

Matthew 16:24-25
24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.
25 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Dying to yourself, to your wants and desires, is the way into the life God created you for. Keep on keeping on, brother!

Gambatte okudasai!

 

[tripleseven]

I think there's a good case to be made that watching is wrong. I mean why be lazy and only watch? So many men these days are weak, timid, and afraid of everything, and also overweight and out of shape. Go join an MMA gym, get some exercise, learn how to be assertive, fight, and stand up for what's right. It's also a great place to make friends and have fun.

No thank you - I am allergic to pain, do not want a hobby that involves me feeling pain!

 

[tripleseven]

Consider this - the Bible is chock-a-block full of violence

 

[Zatek]

Well, here's the thing: I was, until three years ago, a martial arts/self-defense instructor. I had operated my own dojo for almost thirty years. So, I get your interest in the technical aspects of fighting, though I've never liked violence. My training and teaching was never with the aim of sport fighting, fighting for entertainment, or for public accolades and competition. My focus was always on self-defense and on defending those who needed defending but could not properly defend themselves. It was also focused on "polishing character": facing fear, pain, anger, pride and learning how not to be controlled by these things. The idea of harming a person for the sake of pride, for the sake of bragging rights, and/or to demonstrate superiority and/or to exert power over another is abhorrent to me. Doing so certainly doesn't accord with the call of God upon
His children to live in holiness, peace, gentleness, humility and love.

So you think know how to fight is good, but anyone who wants to learn to defend themselves and have some fun with the sport version of that martial art is a sinner? What a hypocrite.

And are you a mind reader too? How do you know people are doing it for pride or power or whatever? Just because they compete proves nothing about their motives. Most of life involves competition. Interviewing for a job, sales, dating, sports, applying for school, etc. You sound insecure and jealous, like a guy who sees another guy with a beautiful wife and just makes assumptions that he's superficial and that he just married her for status, and can't accept the possibility they simply love each other.

Sure, there are people everywhere that are motivated by greed and power and selfishness, but that isn't exclusive to MMA. Why do you assume that it can't be that people train and compete because it's a hobby that's fun and social?

 

[aiki]

So you think know how to fight is good, but anyone who wants to learn to defend themselves and have some fun with the sport version of that martial art is a sinner? What a hypocrite.

??? Ad hominem is always the weakest form of argument. It's what bullies do on school playgrounds.

I think it is good to learn how to defend yourself, and those you love, and those who cannot defend themselves. If you haven't the capacity to see the difference between doing this and fighting for bragging rights, for fame and money, then you are beyond being reasoned with.

And are you a mind reader too? How do you know people are doing it for pride or power or whatever?

Nearly thirty years of dealing with UFC/MMA meatheads who would come to my dojo to "learn a few tricks" is not mind reading. I know what they think, what the motives of many of them are, simply by listening to them talk about their involvement with MMA. And I have eyes. I have seen a number of brief clips of UFC trash-talking, and of the arrogance and bloodlust of many of the fighters. Again, no "mind reading" required.

Most of life involves competition. Interviewing for a job, sales, dating, sports, applying for school, etc.

But not the smashing in of the face of those with whom you're competing. Obviously.

You sound insecure and jealous, like a guy who sees another guy with a beautiful wife and just makes assumptions that he's superficial and that he just married her for status, and can't accept the possibility they simply love each other.

Well, your merely saying so doesn't make it so. I can't help it if you can't bear someone having an opinion with which you disagree. Hopefully, you'll grow out of this.

Sure, there are people everywhere that are motivated by greed and power and selfishness, but that isn't exclusive to MMA.

I never said it was.

Why do you assume that it can't be that people train and compete because it's a hobby that's fun and social?

Where have I said that this isn't possible? This is an assumption you've made here (one of a number, actually), not what I've actually stated.

 

[Zatek]

??? Ad hominem is always the weakest form of argument. It's what bullies do on school playgrounds.

I think it is good to learn how to defend yourself, and those you love, and those who cannot defend themselves. If you haven't the capacity to see the difference between doing this and fighting for bragging rights, for fame and money, then you are beyond being reasoned with.

Nearly thirty years of dealing with UFC/MMA meatheads who would come to my dojo to "learn a few tricks" is not mind reading. I know what they think, what the motives of many of them are, simply by listening to them talk about their involvement with MMA. And I have eyes. I have seen a number of brief clips of UFC trash-talking, and of the arrogance and bloodlust of many of the fighters. Again, no "mind reading" required.

Ad-hominem is calling someone names without evidence. I pointed out how you fit the definition of a hypocrite, that's not ad-hominem. A few people coming to your dojo isn't a representation of everyone, and I already agreed some people are like that. I can see the difference in motive, but I can't see how you are able to mind read that everyone, including people you've never met, has such motives.

But not the smashing in of the face of those with whom you're competing. Obviously.

Lots of things are wrong when not consensual, but perfectly fine when it is consensual. If I break into your house it's wrong, if you open the door and invite me in it's not. If I take money out of your wallet without permission it's stealing, if you give me permission it's not. Why would sport fighting be wrong if it is consensual?

Well, your merely saying so doesn't make it so. I can't help it if you can't bear someone having an opinion with which you disagree. Hopefully, you'll grow out of this.

I'm not merely saying so, I'm pointing out your own behavior. You aren't just judging the people you met, you're claiming to know the thoughts and motives of people around the world who train martial arts for sport even though you've never met them. You're mind reading. If you are assuming negative things about individuals you've never met and know nothing about then there is a reason, and the reason is with you because you know nothing about them. Basic psychology of human behavior.

I never said it was.

Where have I said that this isn't possible? This is an assumption you've made here (one of a number, actually), not what I've actually stated.

You clearly implied it. If impure motives are not inherent to MMA then the fact that some people have impure motives for participating in MMA is completely irrelevant to this discussion. It's as dumb an argument as saying going to church is sinful because some people who go to church do evil things and don't care and don't repent.

The discussion is about MMA itself, not certain individuals who participate. If MMA itself is involves impure motives then you must argue that all MMA participants have impure motives. If you admit that MMA participation does not automatically mean impure motives then you just opposed your own argument.

And if you want to argue technicalities then I'd like to point out that I never said you said it was.

 

[aiki]

Ad-hominem is calling someone names without evidence.

No, ad hominem is an attack on the person you're arguing with rather than on their ideas or arguments. It's the kind of attack people resort to when they aren't very secure in their position.

I pointed out how you fit the definition of a hypocrite, that's not ad-hominem.

No, actually, you didn't. And I explained why.

I can see the difference in motive, but I can't see how you are able to mind read that everyone, including people you've never met, has such motives.

Please show me where in all that I've written where I wrote, "I have read the minds of everyone and know what they are all thinking."

Lots of things are wrong when not consensual, but perfectly fine when it is consensual.

And lots of things remain wrong even when consent is given. Does the consent of two people to commit adultery with each other make their adultery morally acceptable? Obviously not.

Why would sport fighting be wrong if it is consensual?

Because consent is not the sole basis upon which a thing is made right.

I'm not merely saying so, I'm pointing out your own behavior.

No, you're merely stating your opinion of my behaviour. And it's quite mistaken.

You aren't just judging the people you met, you're claiming to know the thoughts and motives of people around the world who train martial arts for sport even though you've never met them.

I haven't once made such a claim. Maybe you should read more carefully what I've written.

You clearly implied it.

No, you clearly assumed it.

If impure motives are not inherent to MMA then the fact that some people have impure motives for participating in MMA is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

"Impure motives are inherent in MMA"? Motives are unique to people, not systems of fighting. And I have been careful to refer to UFC MMA fighting which is what the OP asked about. He mentioned Vitor Belfort and other UFC fighters in his OP.

It's as dumb an argument as saying going to church is sinful because some people who go to church do evil things and don't care and don't repent.

*Sigh" Do you know what a Strawman argument is? You just made one.

The discussion is about MMA itself, not certain individuals who participate.

There is no MMA without the individuals who practice it.

 

[Zatek]

"Impure motives are inherent in MMA"? Motives are unique to people, not systems of fighting. And I have been careful to refer to UFC MMA fighting which is what the OP asked about. He mentioned Vitor Belfort and other UFC fighters in his OP.

Vitor is in the UFC but that does not automatically make the discussion exclusive to UFC. The OP makes no mention of UFC and even has links to images of MMA fights that are not UFC.

And if you are going to admit that motives are limited to individual persons and not the activity then you've abandoned your initial argument that I responded to:

My focus was always on self-defense and on defending those who needed defending but could not properly defend themselves. It was also focused on "polishing character": facing fear, pain, anger, pride and learning how not to be controlled by these things. The idea of harming a person for the sake of pride, for the sake of bragging rights, and/or to demonstrate superiority and/or to exert power over another is abhorrent to me. Doing so certainly doesn't accord with the call of God upon.

You just admitted that not all MMA practitioners have those impure motives, so the fact the some do is irrelevant to the merits of MMA.