Is touching yourself a sin? (2)

[pdfiddler]

bump!

 

[Breetai]

Serving God fully doesn't leave people with the kind of dead time on one's hands to even entertain the notion to touch.

You do raise a strong point here!

Sexual thoughts that accompany and generate this behaviour are sin, and constitute adultery, in God's opinion. You don't like it, that's clear. But it has nothing to do with me...it is obstinacy, plainly.

I completely agree with you here, and this is where I argue that masturbation is best to be avoided.

 

[Breetai]

You already know my answer to this question.

Zecryphon, I am failing to see how masturbation is included in the definition of "fornication." Maybe I'm just blind, but would you mind spelling it out for me as if I were a child who just doesn't get it? Because, well, I just don't get it!

Here's the definition you posted. It's not a lot different than the ones I've looked at recently on blueletterbible.com.

Fornication​

Hebrew, זנה, zānāh = "to commit adultery," especially of the female, and less frequently of mere fornication, seldom of involuntary ravishment; also used figuratively in the sense of idolatry, the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of Yahweh (2Ch_21:11; Isa_23:17; Eze_16:26). Once we find the derivative noun תּזנוּת, taznūth (Eze_16:29). In the New Testament, with both the literal and the figurative application, we find πορνεία, porneía, and πορνεύω, porneúō (Mat_5:32; Mat_15:19; Joh_8:41; Act_15:20; 1Co_5:1; 1Co_6:13, 1Co_6:18; 1Co_7:2; 1Co_10:8; 2Co_12:21; Gal_5:19; Eph_5:3; Col_3:5; 1Th_4:3; Rev_2:14, Rev_2:20, Rev_2:21; Rev_9:21; Rev_14:8; Rev_17:2, Rev_17:4). The intensive ἐκπορνεύω, ekporneúō = "to be utterly unchaste" is found in Jud_1:7. Every form of unchastity is included in the term "fornication."

From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.

 

[Floatingaxe]

As Jesus calls looking upon a woman with lust--adultery, He is telling us that we can commit adultery in our heart and mind. He also says we commit murder by even holding a thought of hate toward our brother!

That being a fact, we are guilty before God of adultery or fornication by performing the act of masturbation---sinning in mind and against the body. There is no good outcome of such behaviour. Those who have become inured to it have a deeper problem than they realize, and to defend it is a big mistake...turning into literal false teachers--very dangerous, spiritually...

2 Peter 2:14
They commit adultery with their eyes, and their desire for sin is never satisfied. They lure unstable people into sin, and they are well trained in greed. They live under God’s curse.

17-22:
These people are as useless as dried-up springs or as mist blown away by the wind. They are doomed to blackest darkness. They brag about themselves with empty, foolish boasting. With an appeal to twisted sexual desires, they lure back into sin those who have barely escaped from a lifestyle of deception. They promise freedom, but they themselves are slaves of sin and corruption. For you are a slave to whatever controls you. And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before. It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life. They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.” And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.”

 

[holo]

Floatingaxe,

why is it so hard for you to believe that it is in fact possible to touch without thinking perverted thoughts? How can you possibly claim to actually KNOW what every single person thinks about when they touch?

We're not all like you, you know.

 

[Zecryphon]

Zecryphon, I am failing to see how masturbation is included in the definition of "fornication." Maybe I'm just blind, but would you mind spelling it out for me as if I were a child who just doesn't get it? Because, well, I just don't get it!

Here's the definition you posted. It's not a lot different than the ones I've looked at recently on blueletterbible.com.

Fornication​

Hebrew, זנה, zānāh = "to commit adultery," especially of the female, and less frequently of mere fornication, seldom of involuntary ravishment; also used figuratively in the sense of idolatry, the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of Yahweh (2Ch_21:11; Isa_23:17; Eze_16:26). Once we find the derivative noun תּזנוּת, taznūth (Eze_16:29). In the New Testament, with both the literal and the figurative application, we find πορνεία, porneía, and πορνεύω, porneúō (Mat_5:32; Mat_15:19; Joh_8:41; Act_15:20; 1Co_5:1; 1Co_6:13, 1Co_6:18; 1Co_7:2; 1Co_10:8; 2Co_12:21; Gal_5:19; Eph_5:3; Col_3:5; 1Th_4:3; Rev_2:14, Rev_2:20, Rev_2:21; Rev_9:21; Rev_14:8; Rev_17:2, Rev_17:4). The intensive ἐκπορνεύω, ekporneúō = "to be utterly unchaste" is found in Jud_1:7. Every form of unchastity is included in the term "fornication."

From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.

"Every form of unchastity is included in the term "fornication.""

Chaste means to be modest and abastaining from sex. Masturbation is sex with yourself. People would not be considered to be abstaining from sex if they masturbated. That's not chaste behavior.

 

[Nadiine]

"Every form of unchastity is included in the term "fornication.""

Chaste means to be modest and abastaining from sex. Masturbation is sex with yourself. People would not be considered to be abstaining from sex if they masturbated. That's not chaste behavior.

Interesting - I never actually looked at it in that light.

So that raises some questions I have for married people who are having major sexual crisis'. Worse, for people who are married but one of the partner's CAN'T have sex.
Is it sin for a married man/woman when the other spouse isn't providing or can't provide this for the other???
It's not like they're single trying to gratify self - they married with the intention of continuing sexual activity with one another, but it's witheld from them for whatever reasons.

That kinda confuses me as to this issue.

 

[Zecryphon]

Interesting - I never actually looked at it in that light.

So that raises some questions I have for married people who are having major sexual crisis'. Worse, for people who are married but one of the partner's CAN'T have sex.
Is it sin for a married man/woman when the other spouse isn't providing or can't provide this for the other???
It's not like they're single trying to gratify self - they married with the intention of continuing sexual activity with one another, but it's witheld from them for whatever reasons.

That kinda confuses me as to this issue.

"So that raises some questions I have for married people who are having major sexual crisis'. Worse, for people who are married but one of the partner's CAN'T have sex.
Is it sin for a married man/woman when the other spouse isn't providing or can't provide this for the other???"

You're addressing two different circumstances with your question here. If one of the marriage partners isn't providing the other with sex, there's a deeper problem in the relationship somewhere. Now as to a partner who can't provide sex, for whatever reason, to the other partner, you'd have to talk to someone more well versed in this area than I am. However, Hebrews 13:4 leaps to mind.

Heb 13:4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.

I'm going to assume that you're referring to a married couple not being able to have vaginal intercourse. There are other ways of sexually pleasing your partner however. All other options should be discussed with a pastor and/or Christian marriage counselor. This is way outside my realm of experience and expertise now.

"It's not like they're single trying to gratify self - they married with the intention of continuing sexual activity with one another, but it's witheld from them for whatever reasons."

Abstinence could be an option here. People need to pray about this heavily and repeatedly and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit in all matters. It won't be a walk in the park and it may be that sex for that married couple is over. I can't imagine how I'd handle this situation personally but as a Christian I have vowed to follow God's leading in all areas of my life, including this one. Maybe in these cases God removes the sex drive.

 

[Breetai]

"Every form of unchastity is included in the term "fornication.""

Chaste means to be modest and abastaining from sex. Masturbation is sex with yourself. People would not be considered to be abstaining from sex if they masturbated. That's not chaste behavior.

Zecryphon, that is where I am not convinced. There is the definition of fornication, but the writer of that definition then goes on to add the meaning of "chaste" into it. Furthermore, he seems to redefine both chaste and masturbation (sex with yourself?) to fit his own agenda.

Here's a history of the word and idea of "chaste" I found. You'll notice that it just goes back to the definition of "fornication" again. We're now caught in a loop in which chaste and fornication define each other. Masturbation is not even considered in either. To include is seems to be eisogesis.

sophrosyne[/I], means moderation, which in the ancient Greek world was the chief philosophical virtue. This entailed proper self-mastery for men, and the virtue appropriate to a devoted and child-bearing (or potentially child-bearing) wife. For both men and women this meant the avoidance of fornication rather than the avoidance of sex altogether.

The early Church saw a debate between the proponents of chastity and celibacy. Paul questioned chastity in favour of celibacy in the first century, as I Corinthians: 7 indicates, for example. This passage was (and has continued to be) variously interpreted. Those in favour of celibacy highlighted Paul's comment that he wished all were like him — that is, celibate — and his urging of those unmarried or widowed to remain so, while those favouring chaste marriage have emphasized Paul's words that it is better to marry than to burn if one cannot practise self-control. A different perspective is seen in 1 Timothy: 3, where a bishop (not, in this period, in charge of anything beyond a local church) is described as a person who must be above reproach, married only once, temperate and sensible, and keeping his children submissive: that is, he must embody the qualities of a chaste, married householder. In the letter to Titus, an elder is described, similarly, as one who must have been married only once, who must be blameless and not rebellious, and whose children are believers.

In the second century, many writers were still advocating chaste marriage. For Clement of Alexandria sexual intercourse should be undertaken in marriage in service of God and for the begetting of children. A well-ordered sexuality was not in itself a problem: sexual relations needed to be ordered just as the rest of Christian life had to be ordered. He was therefore concerned about the continence of unmarried men. He saw marriage and celibacy as equal callings, each having its own and different forms of service and ministry to God. In marriage this entailed the care of one's wife and children (Clement was writing to male householders like himself). The particular readers he had in mind were, perhaps, the members of his own congregation in Alexandria who might be told by the ascetic and celibate encratites who lived in the area that they had accommodated too much to the world in marrying. Clement and others who wrote along these lines were, indeed, trying to accommodate Christian principles within the Roman and Greek household structure.

Tertullian, also in the second century, wrote on the importance of monogamy, the bond between one man and woman, believing marriage to be the lot of most Christians, for virginity might be splendid and ideal, but it was not for most people. Those who, at this time, privileged celibacy over marriage were sometimes accused of extremism, such as the prophet Montanus, who was said to allow the annulment of marriage.

By the fourth century, however, almost no one was writing of celibacy and marriage as equal Christian callings. Celibacy was seen as decidedly superior. Many people, from Ambrose to Jerome to Gregory of Nyssa, wrote on the importance of virginity. Only the monk Jovinian denied that virginity was a higher state than marriage, and only Augustine — who himself advocated virginity — wrote anything significant in support of chaste marriage, in his The Good of Marriage (c.401), in which he outlined the three goods of marriage: offspring, fidelity, and the sacramental bond.

Because chastity in the sense of the continence of the unmarried triumphed (until the sixteenth-century Protestant Reformation) over the chastity of temperate sexual behaviour in marriage, the term chastity essentially came to mean celibacy, though historians debate exactly when this happened. It had happened generally by the sixth century, though as early as the fourth century, ‘castitas’ was used in some texts to mean continence rather than non-fornicatory marriage.

— Jane Shaw
​

http://www.answers.com/topic/chastity ]

Am I correct on what I said, or do you think I'm off base?

 

[Zecryphon]

Zecryphon, that is where I am not convinced. There is the definition of fornication, but the writer of that definition then goes on to add the meaning of "chaste" into it. Furthermore, he seems to redefine both chaste and masturbation (sex with yourself?) to fit his own agenda.

Here's a history of the word and idea of "chaste" I found. You'll notice that it just goes back to the definition of "fornication" again. We're now caught in a loop in which chaste and fornication define each other. Masturbation is not even considered in either. To include is seems to be eisogesis.

Am I correct on what I said, or do you think I'm off base?

Then you're not convinced. There's nothing more I can tell you. I have given my reasons why I consider it unchaste behavior and sinful and you're not convinced. I think it's best at this point to turn it over to the Holy Spirit, if you haven't done so already. Just out of curiosity, which synod are you affiliated with?

 

[Nadiine]

"So that raises some questions I have for married people who are having major sexual crisis'. Worse, for people who are married but one of the partner's CAN'T have sex.
Is it sin for a married man/woman when the other spouse isn't providing or can't provide this for the other???"

You're addressing two different circumstances with your question here. If one of the marriage partners isn't providing the other with sex, there's a deeper problem in the relationship somewhere. Now as to a partner who can't provide sex, for whatever reason, to the other partner, you'd have to talk to someone more well versed in this area than I am. However, Hebrews 13:4 leaps to mind.

Heb 13:4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.

I'm going to assume that you're referring to a married couple not being able to have vaginal intercourse. There are other ways of sexually pleasing your partner however. All other options should be discussed with a pastor and/or Christian marriage counselor. This is way outside my realm of experience and expertise now.

"It's not like they're single trying to gratify self - they married with the intention of continuing sexual activity with one another, but it's witheld from them for whatever reasons."

Abstinence could be an option here. People need to pray about this heavily and repeatedly and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit in all matters. It won't be a walk in the park and it may be that sex for that married couple is over. I can't imagine how I'd handle this situation personally but as a Christian I have vowed to follow God's leading in all areas of my life, including this one. Maybe in these cases God removes the sex drive.

Ya, it's a definite issue for married people who have every intention of continuing sexual activity within God's will and permission (and have participated sexually), but problems & issues creep in where they can lose all physical attraction or love for the spouse - where sex turns into basic TORMENT and turn off - yet to honor God's commands of marriage, they won't divorce their spouse or stray into adulterous situations with others to fulfill themselves physically.

I honestly don't know all the perameters, but it could be a REAL rough ride for unhappily married or incapacitated people without having a "release" in some manner when they married lawfully to be within God's will to have sex; wanting a sexual relationship w/ another.

Then again, God doesn't promise us that life's fair or a bed of roses.
Anyways, it's just something I think and wonder about for married people who get stuck in sexual predicaments they didn't intend on upon marriage.

God bless U

 

[Breetai]

Then you're not convinced. There's nothing more I can tell you. I have given my reasons why I consider it unchaste behavior and sinful and you're not convinced. I think it's best at this point to turn it over to the Holy Spirit, if you haven't done so already. Just out of curiosity, which synod are you affiliated with?

Japan Lutheran Church

If you're thinking American synods (I am not American, by the way), I would be in line with the LCMS. I am aware of what they say on LCMS.org, but their argument against masturbation basically skirted around the issue. Yours was much better, to be sure.

 

[Breetai]

Ya, it's a definite issue for married people who have every intention of continuing sexual activity within God's will and permission (and have participated sexually), but problems & issues creep in where they can lose all physical attraction or love for the spouse - where sex turns into basic TORMENT and turn off - yet to honor God's commands of marriage, they won't divorce their spouse or stray into adulterous situations with others to fulfill themselves physically.

I honestly don't know all the perameters, but it could be a REAL rough ride for unhappily married or incapacitated people without having a "release" in some manner when they married lawfully to be within God's will to have sex; wanting a sexual relationship w/ another.

Then again, God doesn't promise us that life's fair or a bed of roses.
Anyways, it's just something I think and wonder about for married people who get stuck in sexual predicaments they didn't intend on upon marriage.

God bless U

I think there are some very good points brought up here. Could it be that this sort of thing is just what God may have intended things like masturbation for? There are cases, it seems to me, where it can be used in a Holy and God-pleasing way.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Floatingaxe,

why is it so hard for you to believe that it is in fact possible to touch without thinking perverted thoughts? How can you possibly claim to actually KNOW what every single person thinks about when they touch?

We're not all like you, you know.

The mind generates the behaviour. You think about it, and you do it. There is also the erotic thoughts that most often go with it (to keep it going, so toi speak). All fall into fleshly thinking, which we are to avoid. Devil's workshop and all that rot.

No you aren't like me, I can tell, but we are all alike in that masturbation is not an autonomic function of the body.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Interesting - I never actually looked at it in that light.

So that raises some questions I have for married people who are having major sexual crisis'. Worse, for people who are married but one of the partner's CAN'T have sex.
Is it sin for a married man/woman when the other spouse isn't providing or can't provide this for the other???
It's not like they're single trying to gratify self - they married with the intention of continuing sexual activity with one another, but it's witheld from them for whatever reasons.

That kinda confuses me as to this issue.

That falls into the category of married sexual activity. All good. We aren't discussing that here, hon!

 

[Nadiine]

I think there are some very good points brought up here. Could it be that this sort of thing is just what God may have intended things like masturbation for? There are cases, it seems to me, where it can be used in a Holy and God-pleasing way.

Well, I didn't mean for this to become a support FOR masturbation in any way.
I was just exploring another avenue by bringing in married people to the discussion.
We always assume that just becuz people are "married" that they have perfect sexual fulfillment.. but that's hardly the case for more couples than we might think.
Capability of having the sex doesn't make it fulfilling or even pleasurable for many in their different circumstances that leave them miserable.

I also disagree with the stance that "God intended masturbation". There are things we find to do (sexually in this case) that are outside God's intentions for us.
Sex is intended by God, but not outside His perameters of lawfulness & purity. And if masturbation falls into that category, then just becuz we learn how to do it, doesn't make it intended by God.

So I'm not sure at all that my points support masturbation in any way - just that there are more issues involved with this subject than the single person who longs for a partner who copes with it by using masturbation.

After all, biblical marriage/divorce laws also force people to stay celibate the rest of their lives without the possibility of remarriage or children in their future in order not to commit adultery!
Very sobering!

 

[Breetai]

That falls into the category of married sexual activity. All good. We aren't discussing that here, hon!

I thought this was part of the discussing of "is masturbation sinful."

So, you're saying that within the confines of marriage that, at least in some cases, it's permissible?

Do we agree there?

 

[Nadiine]

The mind generates the behaviour. You think about it, and you do it. There is also the erotic thoughts that most often go with it (to keep it going, so toi speak). All fall into fleshly thinking, which we are to avoid. Devil's workshop and all that rot.

No you aren't like me, I can tell, but we are all alike in that masturbation is not an autonomic function of the body.

The thoughts that are used to continue the act of masturbation are always where I side with it being wrong.
If you aren't lusting after a person, you're envisioning either previous (or porn) scenarios that you have seen in your past, or other erotic scenarios that aren't in line with what the Bible tells us to think on -
and I can hardly think how my sexual thoughts are glorifying or pleasing to God in the process of this act.
They've also had clinical tests done where they've found that people who heavily masturbated had sexual problems later w/ a spouse (their ability to attain pleasure by another)... I should find those to post?

In fact, I'd be quite embarrassed & ashamed in front of Him if thinking them.
I cant' consider that "right or pure" --- (granted, I'd feel just as ashamed if God walked in on me and my husband during the act, and we all know that isn't sinful in God's eyes).

But, you get my drift I hope

 

[Floatingaxe]

I thought this was part of the discussing of "is masturbation sinful."

So, you're saying that within the confines of marriage that, at least in some cases, it's permissible?

Do we agree there?

Only between the two--not solo.

 

[Floatingaxe]

(granted, I'd feel just as ashamed if God walked in on me and my husband during the act, and we all know that isn't sinful in God's eyes).

He's right there with you both all the time! Feel better?