Is touching yourself a sin? (2)

[Zecryphon]

Your claim is the only one unsupported.

You need proof that men back then didn't know about masturbaition? Really? Apes know about masturbaition.

"Your claim is the only one unsupported."

You made a claim when you said they knew about masturbation in the times of the Bible, therefore the burden of proof is upon you to prove your claim. If you can not, you should withdraw it.

"You need proof that men back then didn't know about masturbaition?"

No I don't, because the burden of proof is upon you, not me. When you've provided proof for your claim, then I must provide proof for my counter-claim, that's how this works. Welcome to internet debate 101.

"Really? Apes know about masturbaition."

How many apes were living in the desert regions of Judea and the other places mentioned in the Bible? Ya know, so the guys who were alive at that time could emulate the behavior of apes, if they felt so inclined.

Now let's deal with some supported facts. This will be good for you to see, so you know what a supported claim looks like. Since it is your contention that masturbation is not covered by the 10 Commandments and is therefore okay, it would not have been okay for a Jew alive at the time of Christ or before the time of Christ because they were subject to all 613 Commandments. Masturbation would have been illegal under Jewish law. Specifically law # 570:

That the seed of copulation (sperm) defiles (Lev. 15:16) (affirmative).

Here is Leviticus 15:16:

"If a man has an emission of sperm, he shall bathe his whole body in water and be unclean until the evening."

Being unclean in any sense in ancient Judaism was not a good thing and if you were unclean it wasn't a private little thing, it prevented you from entering the Jewish temple which back then was a Jewish person's whole existence basically. It's where almost everything relating to their lives happened. That's why being banned from the temple was such a harsh punishment and a guaranteed way to get people to do what you wanted them to do. It was a favorite of the pharisees and sadducees for that very reason.

Here's a link to all 613 laws: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

From the section on Kosher Sex: Sex is permissible only within the context of a marriage. In Judaism, sex is not merely a way of experiencing physical pleasure. It is an act of immense significance, which requires commitment and responsibility. The requirement of marriage before sex ensures that sense of commitment and responsibility. Jewish law also forbids sexual contact short of intercourse outside of the context of marriage, recognizing that such contact will inevitably lead to intercourse.

Looks to me like masturbation is not considered to be kosher by the Jews. Here's the link to the page on Kosher Sex: http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm
Here's the final word on this issue for masturbation not being a sin for the Jews: Sex for selfish personal satisfaction, without regard for the partner's pleasure, is wrong and evil.

 

[Gukkor]

"Your claim is the only one unsupported."

You made a claim when you said they knew about masturbation in the times of the Bible, therefore the burden of proof is upon you to prove your claim. If you can not, you should withdraw it.

"You need proof that men back then didn't know about masturbaition?"

No I don't, because the burden of proof is upon you, not me. When you've provided proof for your claim, then I must provide proof for my counter-claim, that's how this works. Welcome to internet debate 101.

"Really? Apes know about masturbaition."

How many apes were living in the desert regions of Judea and the other places mentioned in the Bible? Ya know, so the guys who were alive at that time could emulate the behavior of apes, if they felt so inclined.

Now let's deal with some supported facts. This will be good for you to see, so you know what a supported claim looks like. Since it is your contention that masturbation is not covered by the 10 Commandments and is therefore okay, it would not have been okay for a Jew alive at the time of Christ or before the time of Christ because they were subject to all 613 Commandments. Masturbation would have been illegal under Jewish law. Specifically law # 570:

That the seed of copulation (sperm) defiles (Lev. 15:16) (affirmative).

Here is Leviticus 15:16:

"If a man has an emission of sperm, he shall bathe his whole body in water and be unclean until the evening."

Being unclean in any sense in ancient Judaism was not a good thing and if you were unclean it wasn't a private little thing, it prevented you from entering the Jewish temple which back then was a Jewish person's whole existence basically. It's where almost everything relating to their lives happened. That's why being banned from the temple was such a harsh punishment and a guaranteed way to get people to do what you wanted them to do. It was a favorite of the pharisees and sadducees for that very reason.

Here's a link to all 613 laws: http://www.jewfaq.org/613.htm

From the section on Kosher Sex: Sex is permissible only within the context of a marriage. In Judaism, sex is not merely a way of experiencing physical pleasure. It is an act of immense significance, which requires commitment and responsibility. The requirement of marriage before sex ensures that sense of commitment and responsibility. Jewish law also forbids sexual contact short of intercourse outside of the context of marriage, recognizing that such contact will inevitably lead to intercourse.

Looks to me like masturbation is not considered to be kosher by the Jews. Here's the link to the page on Kosher Sex: http://www.jewfaq.org/sex.htm
Here's the final word on this issue for masturbation not being a sin for the Jews: Sex for selfish personal satisfaction, without regard for the partner's pleasure, is wrong and evil.

And yet if you're going to go by Jewish law on this and say that it is sinful because the emission of sperm makes one unclean, then the same must also be said of nocturnal emissions. If a man masturbates, then he probably emits sperm and is thus unclean under Jewish law, which is a shameful thing. If a man has a nocturnal emission because he HASN'T been masturbating, then he again emits sperm and is unclean under Jewish law, which is again a shameful thing. Apparently, Jewish men just couldn't win, could they? It is certainly fortunate that we aren't under that law, isn't it?

Also, did I read incorrectly, or has it actually been suggested that ancient peoples didn't know of masturbation?

 

[Breetai]

Also, did I read incorrectly, or has it actually been suggested that ancient peoples didn't know of masturbation?

That's what I was reading...

It seems quite absurd to me.

 

[holo]

Yes. Because I mean to love myself as a precious child of God, and because my body is the temple for the Holy Spirit to reside in, then I wash my hair and take care of my body for the glory of God. It is the very least we can do for Jesus, as His ambassadors.

OK. Most people wash their hair just to get it clean though, just like people don't have a higher purpose in scratching their neck.

The Holy Spirit's standards regarding sexual purity are the same for all His own.

Then why I am condemned for living like Adam and Eve instead of subjecting myself to church rules?

I love Jesus more than anything. I wash my hair because it is part of loving myself to be clean. it doesn't dishonour God to wash my hair, and I don't have a problem with fantasizing while doing it. I don't have to hide it, either. The whole world can know I wash my hair.

And I can say the exact same thing about masturbation.

You know, even washing your own hair could be sinful for you if you did it with offense. If it's not in faith, it's sin. That's why some can't drink alcohol or work on the sabbath or kiss until they're married etc etc. And we don't condemn them for it. But all things are lawful - not all things are beneficial. Everything is clean for those who are clean. All things are sanctified by prayer and the word of God.

Yes, those things that God asks us to lay down for Him that we refuse become huge mountainous obstacles the longer we disobey. Often, they are actual strongholds that Satan has been given rights to, that need deliverance!

Yes. But God has never asked me to "lay down" masturbation. If He did, I would know.

 

[Breetai]

Then why I am condemned for living like Adam and Eve...

Holo, just what do you mean by living like "Adam and Eve"? Did they constantly go around masturbating as they walked, talked, and named the animals? Seriously, what do you mean by this?

 

[holo]

Holo, just what do you mean by living like "Adam and Eve"? Did they constantly go around masturbating as they walked, talked, and named the animals? Seriously, what do you mean by this?

That I don't live according to law, basically.

 

[Nadiine]

That I don't live according to law, basically.

They didn't live by law - it wasn't established or written yet.

 

[holo]

They didn't live by law - it wasn't established or written yet.

Exactly.

Eden was perfect. They lacked nothing. The only thing they were NOT allowed to do was to learn about right and wrong. But now christians all over the place are trying to get me to eat of that same forbidden fruit.

It does look tempting - it will OPEN YOUR EYES... it will categorize everything, it will divide the whole world, your whole life, into black and white, right and wrong, legal and illegal. Sounds good, doesn't it? Knowing the rules so you can behave correctly. Not to mention how good it feels to know that YOU have actually DONE the right thing! Makes you deserve something! Makes you smart! Better than those who do the wrong thing...

But there's no life in it. In fact, it only brings death. Because it makes you look at yourself instead of God. Adam and Eve ate the fruit, and suddenly they saw that they were naked.

The Good News is that Christ has reconciled man and God. He has put an END to the works of the devil, He is the Second Adam - in fact, the blessing of Christ is GREATER than the curse of Adam! If Adam brought us death, how much more will Christ bring life!

I am as free from sin and law as Adam and Eve were before they ate the forbidden fruit. I was in Adam yes, by birth, but now I am in Christ

 

[rosiecotton]

Same with keeping a house from looking like a few grenades were tossed into it & blew up...

Don't go in my basement then!!!

 

[Zecryphon]

"And yet if you're going to go by Jewish law on this and say that it is sinful because the emission of sperm makes one unclean, then the same must also be said of nocturnal emissions. If a man masturbates, then he probably emits sperm and is thus unclean under Jewish law, which is a shameful thing. If a man has a nocturnal emission because he HASN'T been masturbating, then he again emits sperm and is unclean under Jewish law, which is again a shameful thing. Apparently, Jewish men just couldn't win, could they?"

Outside of Christ none of us, Jew or Gentile, can win, because no matter what we do by ourselves it will never be good enough. The reason I posted all that Jewish law was so people could understand this from the perspective of a Jew alive in Biblical times. I think what's been going on here is that we are taking our 21st-century understanding and rationale of masturbation and applying it back to that time. We can't do that. When we read scripture we have to read it and understand it as they would have read it and understood it and that includes reading it as a Jew who would have been under the temple system and all that entailed.

"It is certainly fortunate that we aren't under that law, isn't it?"

Yes it is.

"Also, did I read incorrectly, or has it actually been suggested that ancient peoples didn't know of masturbation?"

I believe you have misunderstood what I'm doing here. I have not claimed that men in Biblical times did not know about masturbation, that would constitute a counter-claim. Shiversblood made the claim that they did know about masturbation and I have asked for proof of that claim. That's it. We haven't gotten to the counter-claim stage yet. Shiversblood, seems to think that if he types a statement it is therefore true and needs no support, but everybody else needs to support their statements with evidence. He doesn't understand how this works. Hopefully through excercises like this he will learn.

 

[Zecryphon]

"They didn't live by law - it wasn't established or written yet."

They were under a commandment from God not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. That was the law that was in effect in Eden. This was straight from God to Adam. They knew what they were to do, God had told them this as well, and what they were not to do. When they did that which was forbidden, they incurred God's wrath, because they had broken the law of the land.

 

[Nadiine]

Don't go in my basement then!!!

LOL

*mails a broom and dustpan over* hehe

 

[Zecryphon]

"That's what I was reading...

It seems quite absurd to me."

It would be absurd if that were my counter-claim. I have not made that counter-claim. Shiversblood claimed they knew about masturbation in Biblical times. I have asked for proof of that claim. That's where this stands right now and probably will always stand as Shiversblood has this habit of saying things and not backing them up with evidence.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Your talking about modern crimes. Back when the bible was written they didn't know about those sins yet. They did know about masturbation. And since they did, it should have been required to have been written about in the bible if it was a sin. It wasn't. And The 10 commandment's don't talk about masturbation itself.

Please understand that I was responding to this statement:

If it is a sin then it has to be written. Just like a law has to be written in order for it to be broken

These modern sins are not WRITTEN, but they are understood well as being sins. I was pointing out, as was obvious, I thought, that not all sins must be detailed in scripture--otherwise the scriptures would be an even more voluminous tome than it is!

Who is anyone of us to tell God what should and shouldn't be required to be included in His very Word? It's awfully presumptuous of you to say such a thing.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Yes. But God has never asked me to "lay down" masturbation. If He did, I would know.

Somehow, I doubt that.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I am as free from sin and law as Adam and Eve were before they ate the forbidden fruit. I was in Adam yes, by birth, but now I am in Christ

What you are saying here is that you are free to sin, holo. You are saying that with every issue we meet in. We are not free to sin, but we have been freed from the pull of sin on us as we had without Christ.

You tend to make light of the fact that we do have parameters in Christ, and that we have a responsibility to walk in the light after the example of Jesus Christ. No one is sinless--we all continue to sin--but we are redeemed and have a ready forgiveness every time we come to God and repent. You are not free to do whatever you jolly well please, holo. That is your message to many young believers here in CF continually...it is erroneous and dangerous.

 

[Zecryphon]

What you are saying here is that you are free to sin, holo. You are saying that with every issue we meet in. We are not free to sin, but we have been freed from the pull of sin on us as we had without Christ.

You tend to make light of the fact that we do have parameters in Christ, and that we have a responsibility to walk in the light after the example of Jesus Christ. No one is sinless--we all continue to sin--but we are redeemed and have a ready forgiveness every time we come to God and repent. You are not free to do whatever you jolly well please, holo. That is your message to many young believers here in CF continually...it is erroneous and dangerous.

Not only is it erroneous and dangerous, it's heresy rooted in a post-modern mindset that doesn't deal with the scriptures as a divine revelation from God about Himself. But rather it interprets scriptures in light of personal truths that vary from person to person and no one can ever know for certain what God really thinks on any issue, because God didn't spell it out for them in every situation that could ever possibly come to pass.

 

[Gukkor]

Not only is it erroneous and dangerous, it's heresy rooted in a post-modern mindset that doesn't deal with the scriptures as a divine revelation from God about Himself. But rather it interprets scriptures in light of personal truths that vary from person to person and no one can ever know for certain what God really thinks on any issue, because God didn't spell it out for them in every situation that could ever possibly come to pass.

Could you please clarify what you mean by "personal truths that vary from person to person?"

 

[Floatingaxe]

Not only is it erroneous and dangerous, it's heresy rooted in a post-modern mindset that doesn't deal with the scriptures as a divine revelation from God about Himself. But rather it interprets scriptures in light of personal truths that vary from person to person and no one can ever know for certain what God really thinks on any issue, because God didn't spell it out for them in every situation that could ever possibly come to pass.

Awesome. You are exactly right!

 

[Zecryphon]

Could you please clarify what you mean by "personal truths that vary from person to person?"

I mean that each person decides what is true for themselves based upon their own personal standard, whatever that may be and that standard varies from person to person. Take a peek at the threads on homosexuality in this very forum. There are people there who are denying that the scriptures say that homosexuality is wrong. They are denying God's clear written declaration on the matter and favoring their own wisdom based uopn what they consider to be reasonable.