Is touching yourself a sin? (2)

[Zecryphon]

Spirit-filled Christians don't do it.

Floatingaxe, usually I am in complete agreement with most of what you say, but I can not let a statement such as this stand unchallenged. You can not say that Spirit-filled Christians do not touch. It's a flat out lie. If this statement were in any way true ministries such as: www.xxxchurch.com would not have a target audience. The DVD Slaying the Dragon from www.wayofthemasterradio.com would not have an audience. Masturbation is very debatable as a sin, this thread is proof of that. Arguments can be made on both sides. The fact that the Bible itself is silent on whether or not this specific sexual activity is a sin, does not help either side.

A person who masturbates without guilt, remorse or repentance can not be said to be unsaved, or not filled with the Spirit. The most you can do is take their behavior as a warning sign or a red flag of a possible, not definite, false conversion. This behavior by itself is not enough of a reason to condemn anyone to the fires of Hell or to say they are not Spirit-filled. Christians still sin and when we do, it's the attitude we have about that sin that speaks about the genuineness of our conversion experience.

If we regret it, repent of it, and do everything we can to avoid falling into that sin again, there's a good chance we're soundly saved Christians. If we sin brazenly and openly and do not repent of our sins, then I believe you can safely start to wonder if the person you have come across is indeed soundly saved or not. But to say that this person or that person is not saved or does not have the Holy Spirit in them, because of this one particular activity, is dishonest in my opinion.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Floatingaxe, usually I am in complete agreement with most of what you say, but I can not let a statement such as this stand unchallenged. You can not say that Spirit-filled Christians do not touch. It's a flat out lie. If this statement were in any way true ministries such as: www.xxxchurch.com would not have a target audience. The DVD Slaying the Dragon from www.wayofthemasterradio.com would not have an audience. Masturbation is very debatable as a sin, this thread is proof of that. Arguments can be made on both sides. The fact that the Bible itself is silent on whether or not this specific sexual activity is a sin, does not help either side.

A person who masturbates without guilt, remorse or repentance can not be said to be unsaved, or not filled with the Spirit. The most you can do is take their behavior as a warning sign or a red flag of a possible, not definite, false conversion. This behavior by itself is not enough of a reason to condemn anyone to the fires of Hell or to say they are not Spirit-filled. Christians still sin and when we do, it's the attitude we have about that sin that speaks about the genuineness of our conversion experience.

If we regret it, repent of it, and do everything we can to avoid falling into that sin again, there's a good chance we're soundly saved Christians. If we sin brazenly and openly and do not repent of our sins, then I believe you can safely start to wonder if the person you have come across is indeed soundly saved or not. But to say that this person or that person is not saved or does not have the Holy Spirit in them, because of this one particular activity, is dishonest in my opinion.

Hahaha! I knew I'd get a response, but didn't think it would be from you, Zecryphon!

I agree with you that many Christians may have a problem with masturbation. To me, and many Christians, it is not a debatable thing--it is sinful to have sex with yourself.

The Holy Spirit challenges the heart of every Christian. He doesn't skip over certain individuals with his convicting! It's just that many people are deceived. It is the God-sensitive heart that hears and obeys.

So, when I say Spirit-filled believers don't touch, I am saying that those who are led by the Spirit of God won't give into such temptation because they allow God to be first and place their will under His. Those believers in Jesus Christ who WALK in the Spirit won't have such a behaviour. God is our fulfillment--and in those who have no outlet for their sexual urges, He is especially there for us, helping us over that with His presence!

Don't relegate all Spirit-filled believers to helplessness. It's just not so. We can have victory in Jesus in all things.

 

[Zecryphon]

Hahaha! I knew I'd get a response, but didn't think it would be from you, Zecryphon!

I agree with you that many Christians may have a problem with masturbation. To me, and many Christians, it is not a debatable thing--it is sinful to have sex with yourself.

The Holy Spirit challenges the heart of every Christian. He doesn't skip over certain individuals with his convicting! It's just that many people are deceived. It is the God-sensitive heart that hears and obeys.

So, when I say Spirit-filled believers don't touch, I am saying that those who are led by the Spirit of God won't give into such temptation because they allow God to be first and place their will under His. Those believers in Jesus Christ who WALK in the Spirit won't have such a behaviour. God is our fulfillment--and in those who have no outlet for their sexual urges, He is especially there for us, helping us over that with His presence!

Don't relegate all Spirit-filled believers to helplessness. It's just not so. We can have victory in Jesus in all things.

"Hahaha! I knew I'd get a response, but didn't think it would be from you, Zecryphon!"

What can I say? I'm full of surprises. LOL

"I agree with you that many Christians may have a problem with masturbation. To me, and many Christians, it is not a debatable thing--it is sinful to have sex with yourself."

I agree with you here. My point was that the number of posts in this thread, which is a rollover from the orignal thread, is proof that it is very much debatable.

"The Holy Spirit challenges the heart of every Christian. He doesn't skip over certain individuals with his convicting!"

I agree.

"It's just that many people are deceived. It is the God-sensitive heart that hears and obeys."

True, which is what I meant when I said the reaction of the person when they are confronted about their sin speaks volumes about who they are in Christ..

"So, when I say Spirit-filled believers don't touch, I am saying that those who are led by the Spirit of God won't give into such temptation because they allow God to be first and place their will under His."

Do you apply that reasoning to all sins though? You can't, because if that were true, Christians would never sin again after being saved, but we do. So that line of reasoning doesn't work.

"Those believers in Jesus Christ who WALK in the Spirit won't have such a behaviour."

So a Spirit-filled believer never falls in their walk with Christ? I fall daily. It's how we behave when we have fallen that lets us and others know of our new nature in Christ. Do we repent by falling prostrate before the Lord or being driven to our knees and saying something like "Oh Lord! Forgive me! I have sinned against you in thought and deed! I am not worthy of your love for I am wretched! Please have mercy upon me!" or just continue on in sin, saying "oh well, I'll have to try really hard not to do that again."

"God is our fulfillment--and in those who have no outlet for their sexual urges, He is especially there for us, helping us over that with His presence!"

For some it's not that cut and dried as they have a real addiction issue. People need to grow in righteousness and to do that they need to have a starting point that involves an area of sin in their lives. It doesn't have to be masturbation it can be anything. Evidence that they are growing in holiness is that they no longer engage in behaviors they used to. It's a battle, every day. It's not like, "okay I'm saved. I'm now righteous and can do no wrong. So whatever I do, it must be what God wants me to do." That's the line of thinking that says "hey it's okay to sin, all that was paid at the cross, God doesn't care anymore." It's a dangerous road to go down.

"Don't relegate all Spirit-filled believers to helplessness. It's just not so. We can have victory in Jesus in all things."

Yes you can, but by the same token don't relegate all Spirit-filled Christians to being totally dead to tempation either. We're not.

 

[Floatingaxe]

"Those believers in Jesus Christ who WALK in the Spirit won't have such a behaviour."

So a Spirit-filled believer never falls in their walk with Christ? I fall daily. It's how we behave when we have fallen that lets us and others know of our new nature in Christ. Do we repent by falling prostrate before the Lord or being driven to our knees and saying something like "Oh Lord! Forgive me! I have sinned against you in thought and deed! I am not worthy of your love for I am wretched! Please have mercy upon me!" or just continue on in sin, saying "oh well, I'll have to try really hard not to do that again."

Yes, that is right. It is the heart attuned to Jesus Christ and God's way that has Godly sorrow over their sin.


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"God is our fulfillment--and in those who have no outlet for their sexual urges, He is especially there for us, helping us over that with His presence!"

For some it's not that cut and dried as they have a real addiction issue. People need to grow in righteousness and to do that they need to have a starting point that involves an area of sin in their lives. It doesn't have to be masturbation it can be anything. Evidence that they are growing in holiness is that they no longer engage in behaviors they used to. It's a battle, every day. It's not like, "okay I'm saved. I'm now righteous and can do no wrong. So whatever I do, it must be what God wants me to do." That's the line of thinking that says "hey it's okay to sin, all that was paid at the cross, God doesn't care anymore." It's a dangerous road to go down.


That's right, too. Spirit-filled believers can have major difficulties, but they don't have a deadened conscience. Yesw, what we are dealing with in this thread is the opposition that says, "Hey, I have my fire insurance! Now i can do anything I wish, because God loves me and has saved me by Grace...blah blah blah."


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"Don't relegate all Spirit-filled believers to helplessness. It's just not so. We can have victory in Jesus in all things."

Yes you can, but by the same token don't relegate all Spirit-filled Christians to being totally dead to tempation either. We're not.

Absolutely! I am saying that those who WALK with God daily have victory in their lives. In Christ we are more than conquerors! Amen! Sin has no sway, and the besetting sins can and will be broken off by the power of the Holy Spirit! It's not a fairy tale--Jesus actually frees us! Hallelujah!



Zecryphon!

 

[Gukkor]

Yesw, what we are dealing with in this thread is the opposition that says, "Hey, I have my fire insurance! Now i can do anything I wish, because God loves me and has saved me by Grace...blah blah blah."

I never said that.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I never said that.

I'm glad to hear it!

 

[Shiversblood]

When has the end result ever been a guy stop masturbaiting forever. Before marriage even. When has this happened. Why attempt it if no one has done it. (If it were a sin.)

 

[Zecryphon]

I never said that.

When I read that quote, your name is not the one that leaps to mind.

 

[Floatingaxe]

When has the end result ever been a guy stop masturbaiting forever. Before marriage even. When has this happened. Why attempt it if no one has done it. (If it were a sin.)

You don't believe that a person who makes Jesus Christ Lord of his life cannot conquer a besetting sin like masturbation? He sure can! When God is given room to move and work in a life, He does a good thing and it is once and for all! Gone forever.

He is our deliverer, and it is Him alone we trust!

Psalm 18:2
The Lord is my rock, my fortress, and my savior;
my God is my rock, in whom I find protection.
He is my shield, the power that saves me,
and my place of safety.

 

[johnnine]

You don't believe that a person who makes Jesus Christ Lord of his life cannot conquer a besetting sin like masturbation? He sure can! When God is given room to move and work in a life, He does a good thing and it is once and for all! Gone forever.

He is our deliverer, and it is Him alone we trust!

Psalm 18:2
The Lord is my rock, my fortress, and my savior;
my God is my rock, in whom I find protection.
He is my shield, the power that saves me,
and my place of safety.

For you to be correct one must first assume that you have "proven" that masturbation is a sin.

I've seen no such proof. But I'm fairly confident that thinking about it is sinful. Which all in this thread have obviously done.

Sinners!!!

 

[holo]

You cannot touch without using your mind.

YES I CAN. Just like an infant, and just like a whole lot of people. Of course you can! It's a simple bodily reaction. You can touch without wicked thoughts just like you can have sex without wicked thoughts.

Again, Floatingaxe, speak for YOURSELF. It's obvious that YOU couldn't touch without "using your mind", but that simply doesn't mean that nobody else can.

I can guarantee you that it's perfectly possible. If you can't, well that's YOUR problem.

You are not normal if you think that two weeks without it is a big deal!

Never said it was a big deal. But typical of you to suggest that I did.

No shame or guilt here. I am pointing out a problem you seem to have

I suggest you ASK people if they have a problem instead of TELLING them that they have.

mainly the perverse idea that masturbation is not a sinful behaviour.

Again, it's YOU who can't touch without perversion.

Yes, you just sin before Him brazenly.

No, I don't. My conscience and my conviction and my heart is 100% pure. Speak for YOURSELF, Floatingaxe.

I am not judging you with anything but the knowledge of what purity is, by the Word of God.

And yet that "Word of God" doesn't even mention masturbation.

 

[Floatingaxe]

For you to be correct one must first assume that you have "proven" that masturbation is a sin.

I've seen no such proof. But I'm fairly confident that thinking about it is sinful. Which all in this thread have obviously done.

Sinners!!!

You're telling me!

 

[Floatingaxe]

YES I CAN. Just like an infant, and just like a whole lot of people. Of course you can! It's a simple bodily reaction. You can touch without wicked thoughts just like you can have sex without wicked thoughts.

No. You are lying to yourself in my opinion. You are responsible to God for your actions, mindless or not...but this is a mindful behaviour and you are not absolved from it until you confess it in repentance.

Picking one's nose is a mindless activity--sex isn't. To think so little of sex as to perform a sex act with yourself and relegate it to a mindless pasttime is disgusting and outside of honourable.

You aren't a baby, holo. Be a man...and most importantly, a Godly man who lives in purity of body and mind.

1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.

 

[holo]

You are lying to yourself in my opinion.

Exactly. In your opinion.

this is a mindful behaviour and you are not absolved from it until you confess it in repentance.

I'll confess my sin when I am convinced that it's actually a sin. As long as I'm 100% convinced that it's not, though, it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever to repent of it.

Picking one's nose is a mindless activity--sex isn't. To think so little of sex as to perform a sex act with yourself and relegate it to a mindless pasttime is disgusting and outside of honourable.

In your opinion, yes. So feel free not to do it. I'm not suggesting everybody should touch or something. If you can't do it with a pure heart, then don't. Just don't tell ME how I see it. The fact that you don't find it "honourable" is completely irrelevant. I need no honour from you, and you don't need to give me any,and basically, my honour is MY concern.

You aren't a baby, holo. Be a man...and most importantly, a Godly man who lives in purity of body and mind.

I am. I just don't live according to your personal opinions, rules and preferences.

1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.

Nice verse, but it has nothing to do with masturbation.

 

[Floatingaxe]

basically, my honour is MY concern.

It's the honour due God to which I am referring. All our deeds are to be done for Him.

 

[Breetai]

No. You are lying to yourself in my opinion. You are responsible to God for your actions, mindless or not...but this is a mindful behaviour and you are not absolved from it until you confess it in repentance.

Picking one's nose is a mindless activity--sex isn't. To think so little of sex as to perform a sex act with yourself and relegate it to a mindless pasttime is disgusting and outside of honourable.

You aren't a baby, holo. Be a man...and most importantly, a Godly man who lives in purity of body and mind.

1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.

I agree with you very often, but I think you're pushing the issue beyond the point of being Biblical and into your own personal bias here.

If someone is able to touch without sinning on the side, difficult as I think it is, then to call that person to repentance to add your own theory and ideas to the Bible. There is no mention of masturbation at all in God's Word. It's a subject that's been left out. It's sort of like drinking in my opinion. Although it easily leads to sin, it is not a sin. I think it's our Christian duty to inform our Christian brothers and sisters of the dangers of such things, but to call their actions sinful when there's no clear Biblical basis for doing to is far beyond our call.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I agree with you very often, but I think you're pushing the issue beyond the point of being Biblical and into your own personal bias here.

If someone is able to touch without sinning on the side, difficult as I think it is, then to call that person to repentance to add your own theory and ideas to the Bible. There is no mention of masturbation at all in God's Word. It's a subject that's been left out. It's sort of like drinking in my opinion. Although it easily leads to sin, it is not a sin. I think it's our Christian duty to inform our Christian brothers and sisters of the dangers of such things, but to call their actions sinful when there's no clear Biblical basis for doing to is far beyond our call.

Come on! it is a sin to have sex with anyone--even yourself--apart from your lawful spouse! Split hairs, why don't you? In the name of God and all things decent, stop defending the behaviour and call a spade a spade.

 

[Breetai]

Come on! it is a sin to have sex with anyone--even yourself--apart from your lawful spouse! Split hairs, why don't you? In the name of God and all things decent, stop defending the behaviour and call a spade a spade.

That is extra-Biblical. Nowhere is this idea found in the Bible.

Where oh where do you get the idea that masturbation is sex? It was not from an in context reading of the Bible. Sex is an intimate physical act between two people (or animals, but let's not go there). I think you'd have to preform some interesting scriptural surgery in order to call masturbation "sex with yourself." It's just not mentioned in the Bible at all, and there is zero basis for calling it sinful by itself. I do not recommend it in most cases, as it often does lead to sin... but as anyone can plainly read in this thread, that isn't always the case.

Very possibly, it can be used as a God-given tool to avoid sin. I don't know about you girls, but for men, we become sexually aroused quite easily. Using masturbation as a tool to flee sexual thought and temptation is a much better option than burning with lust. Add to that the fact that masturbation as a sin, even at all, is found nowhere in the Bible and it becomes a valid option to flee from sin.

Tell me... is masturbating in your sleep sinful?

No, I do not encourage masturbation. I 100% agree that it does often lead to sin. Yet, as with drinking, it is not sinful by itself. It can even, as I've shown in a case above, be used for God (as a way to avoid falling into sin). As long as someone does not abuse masturbation, relying on it for gratification, I don't think there's any reason to stress over it. In fact, some Christian cause others great distress over this issue! As Holo said, Christ has freed us from sin! We should not stress over something like this. Yes, we are to absolutely strive to avoid and flee from sin, but I see no reason to have great stress over an occasional release such as this.

 

[Floatingaxe]

That is extra-Biblical. Nowhere is this idea found in the Bible.

Where oh where do you get the idea that masturbation is sex? It was not from an in context reading of the Bible. Sex is an intimate physical act between two people (or animals, but let's not go there). I think you'd have to preform some interesting scriptural surgery in order to call masturbation "sex with yourself." It's just not mentioned in the Bible at all, and there is zero basis for calling it sinful by itself. I do not recommend it in most cases, as it often does lead to sin... but as anyone can plainly read in this thread, that isn't always the case.

Very possibly, it can be used as a God-given tool to avoid sin. I don't know about you girls, but for men, we become sexually aroused quite easily. Using masturbation as a tool to flee sexual thought and temptation is a much better option than burning with lust. Add to that the fact that masturbation as a sin, even at all, is found nowhere in the Bible and it becomes a valid option to flee from sin.

Tell me... is masturbating in your sleep sinful?

No, I do not encourage masturbation. I 100% agree that it does often lead to sin. Yet, as with drinking, it is not sinful by itself. It can even, as I've shown in a case above, be used for God (as a way to avoid falling into sin). As long as someone does not abuse masturbation, relying on it for gratification, I don't think there's any reason to stress over it. In fact, some Christian cause others great distress over this issue! As Holo said, Christ has freed us from sin! We should not stress over something like this. Yes, we are to absolutely strive to avoid and flee from sin, but I see no reason to have great stress over an occasional release such as this.

So many words, all for what? compromise and whitewash a plainly ungodly act.

You cannot possibly equate the imbibing of alcohol to the sexual manipulation of one's self sexually. Counterfeit sex is against God. It is not inocuous, and doesn't lead to sin--it is sin. It is the substitution of a spouse for sexual gratification. Period.

Don't use it as an excuse for men to relieve themselves. They have the same standards of Godly purity as women...chastity in all ways is the standard. Jesus Christ is your release...not your hand. If, in your scenario, one is doing it in one's sleep, he must be doing it in his waking hours also. It indicates a control issue and a mind control issue.

Holo is right. Jesus has freed us from sin--and how? By suffering an incalculable amount of pain and abuse for us. Why would you treat His sacrifice so lightly to indulge your fleshly desires? How honouring is that?

He freed us from the pull of sin..but I see so many willfully continue in this particular sin. That we are warned against. Jesus didn't free us TO sin, but rather FROM sin's deadly, addictive pull. We now in Him have the choice to refuse to sin. Men ought to try it more often and be blessed by God, especially in a right marital relationship. Want a good wife? Read:

Matthew 6:33
Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need.



Masturbating men need to grow up and stop letting their gonads rule.

1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things.

 

[Breetai]

(Masturbation) doesn't lead to sin--it is sin. It is the substitution of a spouse for sexual gratification. Period.

This is the scriptural error of eisogesis; putting your own ideas into God's Word. Nowhere in the Bible does it say this is sin, or even a substitute for a spouse. Nowhere. Full-stop.

This is your idea through your Biblical paradigm, and probably your church's as well, but it is extra-Biblical; not Biblical.