Is touching yourself a sin? (2)

[Floatingaxe]

See... masturbation in itself may not technically be a sin, but it is surrounded by it. How often does masturbation not involves imagining another person? Rarely (is there anyone who never imagines copulating with another when they have a [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]?). It is therefore already sinful most of the time. On top of that, if you have a Bible-believing Christian spouse, they are very likely to be bothered by this sort of action that is not likely habitual. It takes away from what your spouse should be giving you, and it takes away from their enjoyment. Someone else is now being hurt by this, and it is again sinful. Doing such a sexual act is also prone to lead the mind to thinking about sexual things more often, thereby distracting one from their regular duties in life (work, family, prayer, Bible study, etc. (all things a Christian should be concerned about regularly!!!)).

The fact is that even if it's not a sin in itself, it brings one to sin nearly all of the time. Why would any Christian who is serious about their relationship with Christ even want to try to make a strong case for masturbation, even if they are able to keep their minds clean when they do it; let alone trying to encourage struggling Christians to do it more often(!!!)? It just wouldn't be worth their time, or would even be sinful as it may lead others to sin (in the case of encouraging it).

Excellent! Blessings coming your way!

 

[Shiversblood]

Everyone thinks about something when they masturbait. Sure I guess it is lust but you can't stop your brain from ever thinking about lust.

You know maybe I would feel bad about it hurting my future marriage. Except I don't believe theres any truth behind that. Guys like to think about different things sometimes, girls shouldn't be angry or feel like they arent enough for a guy just because he is thinking or looking at something else when masturbaiting. It has nothing to do with the girl. Its just something that is there. Theres no getting around it. You can say its a sin. But it isnt. And the real waste is having people thinking something so natural could be wrong.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Everyone thinks about something when they masturbait. Sure I guess it is lust but you can't stop your brain from ever thinking about lust.

Yes you can. We are told in God's Word that we must. If we are told to do something, it is certainly within our power to comply. If your lust is more than you can handle, then you need God's help, which He is always ready to supply.

You know maybe I would feel bad about it hurting my future marriage. Except I don't believe theres any truth behind that. Guys like to think about different things sometimes, girls shouldn't be angry or feel like they arent enough for a guy just because he is thinking or looking at something else when masturbaiting. It has nothing to do with the girl. Its just something that is there. Theres no getting around it. You can say its a sin. But it isnt. And the real waste is having people thinking something so natural could be wrong.

So, it's a "guy" thing, is it? Gals need to understand that, eh? It's natural to substitute for the real thing that God gives, eh? Oh yes, I am sure God is busting His buttons over that!

We are responsible for EVERY wayward, lustful thought, sand will be held accountable for each one. Lusting is the same sin as adultery to God.

I gather much time on the knees is warranted after reading through this thread. Be careful for callouses.

 

[Breetai]

Everyone thinks about something when they masturbait. Sure I guess it is lust but you can't stop your brain from ever thinking about lust.

So? I can't stop from sinning either. Does that mean I should not make an effort not to? OF COURSE NOT!!! Masturbation isn't a sin, but because it has a good chance of causing me to sin, I should prayerfully try to avoid it. Drinking too much alcohol isn't a sin, but I should not get drunk because it certainly leads to sin very often. Smoking pot (arguably) isn't a sin, but again it can lead to it very easily. Christians certainly should avoid these things!!!

I refer you to what the apostle Paul said in Romans when he talks about exactly what you just said:

So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good"

Shiversblood, and all others, we are going to sin. Even though we are saved by Christ's grace, that does not mean that we are free of sin in this life. It only means that we are forgiven of it if we put our faith in Christ. If we ignore God's law and go on willfully sinning, is our faith really in Christ? Is Christ really are God? Probably not. We'd just be paying him lip service while we're busy making masturbation, or alcohol, or our motorbikes, or whatever else our god. Even though we will stumble and sin once and a while, we, as Christians, are commanded and expected to make an effort to avoid sin out of our loves and thanks for Christ. Willfully sinning is another sin in itself, and it only digs an even deeper pit of sin that is all the more difficult to climb out of. It hardens our heart, and eventually weakens our faith in Christ. Continual sin will destroy faith.

Our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters sometimes say that not only faith in necessary for salvation, but also good works. While technically not correct, this idea does have truth. Without good works, of which willful sin leads to, our faith becomes dead and we are not saved. If we love the Lord with all our heart, we will hate our sin and make an effort to stop it; not defend and encourage it!!!

You know maybe I would feel bad about it hurting my future marriage. Except I don't believe theres any truth behind that.

Not believing it does not make it true. I have experienced this second hand, and I'm making an educated guess that our friend "Floatingaxe" has or is first-hand. You would do well to heed their words.

Guys like to think about different things sometimes, girls shouldn't be angry or feel like they arent enough for a guy just because he is thinking or looking at something else when masturbaiting.

Why shouldn't they? First of all, to even think of another person is to sin! Secondly, if you know that this might hurt them, why would you do it??? I can't think of anything more selfish than to willingly hurt someone!!! Just don't do it!

It has nothing to do with the girl.

COMPLETELY WRONG! Your reasons for doing it might not, but it probably DOES affect her. To say this has nothing to do with the girl is plain ignorant.

Its just something that is there. Theres no getting around it.

Wrong again. Thinking of another girl sexual is sinful. If you deny that, then you are denying the very Word of Christ.

You can say its a sin.

No I don't, Christ does.

But it isnt.

Are you god?

And the real waste is having people thinking something so natural could be wrong.

Imagining a person other than your spouse it not wrong? This is what your post said.

You might want to read the quote from Paul above again. For us, sinning is natural. That does not make it right.

 

[holo]

So the act has to actually hurt someone physically before you stop doing it? Or is emotinal pain enough of a reason to stop doing it?

Physical, spiritual, emotional, if it did me or anybody else some actual damage, I would obviously consider if it was worth doing. But I see absolutely NO bad effects of it.

The act of self-pleasure denies God's design for human sexuality.

No, on the contrary, it confirms it. Even babies do it - it's part of our nature, how the Lord has created us. There's nothing wrong with it, but there is definately something wrong with denying and chaining and perverting it like religious people tend to do.

By masturbating you are saying in essence that even though God has provided a current or future partner for you, that's not good enough.

Not at all, because
a) Nobody masturbates instead of having actual sex, and
b) if you decide to eat breakfast, you aren't in effect saying that the meal God has provided you later that day isn't good enough.

That line of thinking has been humanity's downfall since the Garden of Eden. Man claiming to know better than God what he needs.

Yeah, like rules on masturbation.

But now we do have commands about certain behaviors and you refuse to follow them.

We do? Where are those? There is a law in the OT, given to the jews, which gentiles were never under and that believers are DEAD to.

You have no idea of knowing why God commanded that

Yes I do, and He said so Himself - it would bring DEATH. Death reigned through and from Adam because they ate from that tree, and Christ, the second Adam, reconciled man and God. We are now in the same state and the same relationship with God as Adam and Eve were originally.

If they weren't better off with some rule regarding masturbation and whatnot, neither am I.

You focus on the aspects of God that you want to focus on.

While the right thing to do would be to focus on the things we don't want to focus on?

You focus on the grace and ignore the wrath.

What wrath? Is God mad at me?

They live a life of pride instead a life of thankfulness and repentance before God.

Yeah, except that's exactly the OPPOSITE of how I live.

You said it yourself holo, conscience means "with knowledge." It is with knowledge that we know lying, murdering, stealing, adultery, blasphemy, etc. are wrong. Our consciences line up with God's moral law. Why? Beacuse it is God's moral law that is the basis of our conscience. When we violate that we know immediately, in every fiber of our being that we have done something wrong.

Our consciences are pliable and volatile and can even be "seared with a hot iron". Our conscience doesn't line up with God's law at all. Intitially, perhaps, but only until society and family and religion and habit has gotten to shape and bend and direct it.

The Holy Spirit convicts a person of their sin by using the conscience and the law contained there.

As a gentile, the "law" that I died to, is the "demands of the law written in the heart" - we gentiles never had the law, but we have a conscience.

An example:
I had promised my sister to hang out with her and go to a christian meeting one weekend. But just before going over to her, I felt this gut feeling/urge/conviction that I shoul drive over to the next town and visit a friend instead. I couldn't shake that feeling/conviction, so I decided to go. I felt terribly guilty for not going over to my sister though, as I had promised. She wasn't too happy about it either. My conscience screamed to stay and stay with her. I decided, almost as an experiment, to visit my friend instead. To see if that was actually the RIGHT thing to do. Turned out that it was. I had some extremely important spiritual experienced there, and I got to minister to some people in a very important way - it had been the Spirit who wanted me to go. Rather than following my conscience.

It's not that the conscience isn't useful or supposed to be there, but it should never be what ultimately decides how you behave.

Then you need to investigate the Torah and learn about it. Learn about the Jewish law and how Jews such as Jesus and Paul understood it, to keep things such as this in context.

Neither Jesus nor Paul ever talked about different laws. Or, if they did, please show me where.

Also, I have never seen anywhere in the bible that the law was given to gentiles, or that it is meant for believers. It is meant for the wicked and the ungodly.

The penalty for violation of the moral law is what has been set aside, that's what you've been freed from. God's wrath, nothing else.

And then what am I supposed to need the law for?

You have no way of knowing what the right thing to do is

If so, then neither had Adam and Eve.

because you have no standard by which to judge what is right and what is wrong.

If so, then neither had Adam and Eve.

You are living a life of lawlessness, like a crimminal

I am? Since you know that, please inform me of the crimes I'm committing.

You hate the law because it brings your deeds of darkness and sin to the light and exposes them

No actually, I don't hate the law. The law is good. It's just that I'm not under it. I'm free from it. When the commandment came, sin sprang to life and enslaved me. But as I began realising I'm DEAD to the law, sin also lost power over me. Pornography, drug addiction, hate, fear, etc etc. All these things lost their power over me as I began to see that I'm not to live according to the flesh and the letter and the law, but according to the Spirit. The law makes you focus on YOURSELF. Which is the OPPOSITE of focusing on Christ. And focusing on anything BUT Christ will ONLY make matters WORSE.

That's why I don't want, and don't need, to have anything to do with the law.

and if people found out you still sinned, oh the horror that would be.

Actually, I have never denied my sin. Why should I?

 

[holo]

１００％ agreed with that last post.

Oh, so you also know me personally and all the crimes and horrendous things I'm doing. Tell me what they are.

but against what the Bible clearly says about sin itself.

Could you be more accurate? What does the bible say about sin, that I'm going against?

 

[holo]

So? I can't stop from sinning either.

Yes, you can!

You just need to stop trying to live according to commandments - because the commandment is the power of sin. The commandment is good, but sin TAKES ADVATAGE of the commandment and USES IT to ENSLAVE you and to arouse all sorts of sinful passions in you.

Live according to the Spirit instead, and you will not fulfill the sinful desires of the flesh.

Does that mean I should not make an effort not to?

YES! Because as long as you're making these efforts, you're effectively denying God to do it. It's in you WEAKNESS that you are strong, or rather: HE is strong. Don't fight sin. Reckon yourself dead to sin. The battle belongs to the LORD - YOU will never win it. Never.

And to reckon yourself dead to sin, you must realise that you're also dead to the law - because the law is for the wicked and the ungodly. You aren't wicked and ungodly, you are saved! You are righteous, you are as blameless as Jesus, because He IS you righteousness. He IS your righteousness. He IS your righteousness. He IS your righteousness. He IS your righteousness. He IS your righteousness. He IS your righteousness.

Walk in FAITH, man!

You are righteous, that is your starting point! You have already been made righteous and holy. Why should you want to sin? Why should you be focused on sin at all? Stop looking at the law and start looking on Jesus. See how Peter walked on the water? It was impossible. But he looked on JESUS. You do the same, and you will defy the law of sin and death.

 

[Breetai]

Oh, so you also know me personally and all the crimes and horrendous things I'm doing. Tell me what they are.

I meant I agreed with the principle and theology behind the post, to be more specific.

Yes, you can (stop from sinning)!... You just need to stop trying to live according to commandments

Ignorance is bliss?

(Should we make an effort not to sin?)YES! Because as long as you're making these efforts, you're effectively denying God to do it. It's in you WEAKNESS that you are strong, or rather: HE is strong. Don't fight sin. Reckon yourself dead to sin. The battle belongs to the LORD - YOU will never win it. Never.

Except that sin still exists in us, and we are not to give into it. We are free from it; the guilt of being in sin, because Christ, as you are saying, did set us free from that. Yet, that doesn't mean that we are allowed to sin freely. Sin is still sin.

 

[Zecryphon]

Physical, spiritual, emotional, if it did me or anybody else some actual damage, I would obviously consider if it was worth doing. But I see absolutely NO bad effects of it.

No, on the contrary, it confirms it. Even babies do it - it's part of our nature, how the Lord has created us. There's nothing wrong with it, but there is definately something wrong with denying and chaining and perverting it like religious people tend to do.

Not at all, because
a) Nobody masturbates instead of having actual sex, and
b) if you decide to eat breakfast, you aren't in effect saying that the meal God has provided you later that day isn't good enough.

Yeah, like rules on masturbation.

We do? Where are those? There is a law in the OT, given to the jews, which gentiles were never under and that believers are DEAD to.

Yes I do, and He said so Himself - it would bring DEATH. Death reigned through and from Adam because they ate from that tree, and Christ, the second Adam, reconciled man and God. We are now in the same state and the same relationship with God as Adam and Eve were originally.

If they weren't better off with some rule regarding masturbation and whatnot, neither am I.

While the right thing to do would be to focus on the things we don't want to focus on?

What wrath? Is God mad at me?

Yeah, except that's exactly the OPPOSITE of how I live.

Our consciences are pliable and volatile and can even be "seared with a hot iron". Our conscience doesn't line up with God's law at all. Intitially, perhaps, but only until society and family and religion and habit has gotten to shape and bend and direct it.

As a gentile, the "law" that I died to, is the "demands of the law written in the heart" - we gentiles never had the law, but we have a conscience.

An example:
I had promised my sister to hang out with her and go to a christian meeting one weekend. But just before going over to her, I felt this gut feeling/urge/conviction that I shoul drive over to the next town and visit a friend instead. I couldn't shake that feeling/conviction, so I decided to go. I felt terribly guilty for not going over to my sister though, as I had promised. She wasn't too happy about it either. My conscience screamed to stay and stay with her. I decided, almost as an experiment, to visit my friend instead. To see if that was actually the RIGHT thing to do. Turned out that it was. I had some extremely important spiritual experienced there, and I got to minister to some people in a very important way - it had been the Spirit who wanted me to go. Rather than following my conscience.

It's not that the conscience isn't useful or supposed to be there, but it should never be what ultimately decides how you behave.

Neither Jesus nor Paul ever talked about different laws. Or, if they did, please show me where.

Also, I have never seen anywhere in the bible that the law was given to gentiles, or that it is meant for believers. It is meant for the wicked and the ungodly.

And then what am I supposed to need the law for?

If so, then neither had Adam and Eve.

If so, then neither had Adam and Eve.

I am? Since you know that, please inform me of the crimes I'm committing.

No actually, I don't hate the law. The law is good. It's just that I'm not under it. I'm free from it. When the commandment came, sin sprang to life and enslaved me. But as I began realising I'm DEAD to the law, sin also lost power over me. Pornography, drug addiction, hate, fear, etc etc. All these things lost their power over me as I began to see that I'm not to live according to the flesh and the letter and the law, but according to the Spirit. The law makes you focus on YOURSELF. Which is the OPPOSITE of focusing on Christ. And focusing on anything BUT Christ will ONLY make matters WORSE.

That's why I don't want, and don't need, to have anything to do with the law.

Actually, I have never denied my sin. Why should I?

"No, on the contrary, it confirms it. Even babies do it - it's part of our nature, how the Lord has created us."

Babies poop in their pants too, is that another activity you enjoy? Fulfilling our own personal lusts is part of our sinful nature, the one we are born with, it is not a part of our new nature that we receive with faith.

"There's nothing wrong with it, but there is definately something wrong with denying and chaining and perverting it like religious people tend to do."

The act itself is perverted and against God's design for sexuality. It has nothing to do with religious people.

"Not at all, because
a) Nobody masturbates instead of having actual sex,"

Wrong. People touch because they can't have actual sex, for whatever reason. Everyone wants sex, but since alot of people can't get it anytime they want they are forced by their own lack of self-control of their urges and circumstances to take matters into their own hands.

"and b) if you decide to eat breakfast, you aren't in effect saying that the meal God has provided you later that day isn't good enough."

Eating is a meal is absolutely necessary for survival and proper functioning of your body, masturbation is not something you need to do to survive or to have your body function properly.

"Yeah, like rules on masturbation."

Yeah best ignore those rules on masturbation, cuz let's face it, for you, masturbation rules! LOL

"We do? Where are those? There is a law in the OT, given to the jews, which gentiles were never under and that believers are DEAD to."

1 Corinthians 6, yet again. You are dead to the penalty of the law, nothing else. That is what Christ paid at the cross, the penalty the law demands.

"Yes I do, and He said so Himself - it would bring DEATH. Death reigned through and from Adam because they ate from that tree, and Christ, the second Adam,"

How can Christ be the second Adam when Christ existed before Adam?

"We are now in the same state and the same relationship with God as Adam and Eve were originally."

No you're not. You're willfully ignoring God's commands. In the beginning Adam and Eve followed His commands and did as they were told. So YOU are not in the same relationship with God as they were.

"While the right thing to do would be to focus on the things we don't want to focus on? "

Focus on all of it, wrath and grace, sin and forgiveness, law and gospel, don't cherry pick. If you ignore the fact that you still sin, and think you can't sin anymore and that your actions are not sinful because you're in Christ, then you deny that you need forgiveness on a daily basis from God for your actions, and do not repent daily before God. You willfully live in sin, in willfull opposition to God. You apparently have no problem with this and that speaks volumes.

"What wrath? Is God mad at me?"

Yep, every time you sin God's wrath is incurred. It is only when you humble yourself before God and repent of your sins that God forgives you.

"Yeah, except that's exactly the OPPOSITE of how I live."

No, it isn't.

"Our consciences are pliable and volatile and can even be "seared with a hot iron". Our conscience doesn't line up with God's law at all. Intitially, perhaps, but only until society and family and religion and habit has gotten to shape and bend and direct it."

No, the things you've listed, tell you that what you're feeling from your conscience is not from your conscience at all, but from what you've been told is wrong by other people. They deny God's truth too and will do everything in their power to distort it, just like their father the devil.

"As a gentile, the "law" that I died to, is the "demands of the law written in the heart" - we gentiles never had the law, but we have a conscience."

If you have a conscience you have the law of God. But you don't get it, so constantly repeating this over and over is pointless.

"Neither Jesus nor Paul ever talked about different laws. Or, if they did, please show me where."

Do you even know what the Torah is? I've alerady pointed out that Paul addressed issues concerning ceremonial law and issues concerning moral law. People living in that time understood the difference between the two, were very familiar with the Torah so explaining the difference to them would not be necessary. You do not have that same knowledge, so you need to educate yourself about it so that you understand what was being written and spoken as they would have understood it, to keep it in context.

"Also, I have never seen anywhere in the bible that the law was given to gentiles, or that it is meant for believers. It is meant for the wicked and the ungodly."

There's a lot in the Bible you don't see. Doesn't mean it's not there.

"And then what am I supposed to need the law for?"

We've already covered this. I'm not gonna keep repeating myself over and over.

"If so, then neither had Adam and Eve."

Yes, they did. They were told what behavior was unacceptable to God. The same way we are told by the 10 Commandments. It's obvious that you live your life according to Adam and Eve and not according to Christ. You reference them all the time as the example you wish to emulate.

"If so, then neither had Adam and Eve."

See above.

"I am? Since you know that, please inform me of the crimes I'm committing."

Find out for yourself. Take yourself through the 10 Commandments. It's not my job to fix you or point out where you have erred. But wait a minute. It's all about what you personally believe is right anyway, so nothing I say or show you is going to make a bit of difference.

"No actually, I don't hate the law. The law is good. It's just that I'm not under it. I'm free from it. When the commandment came, sin sprang to life and enslaved me. But as I began realising I'm DEAD to the law, sin also lost power over me. Pornography, drug addiction, hate, fear, etc etc. All these things lost their power over me as I began to see that I'm not to live according to the flesh and the letter and the law, but according to the Spirit. The law makes you focus on YOURSELF. Which is the OPPOSITE of focusing on Christ. And focusing on anything BUT Christ will ONLY make matters WORSE."

No, the law exposes your wicked deeds, once they have been exposed you need to go to God in humility and repentance and ask for forgiveness. It keeps the focus on Christ, not you, because it is only through Christ that any of us are entitled to forgiveness.


"That's why I don't want, and don't need, to have anything to do with the law."

It doesn't matter what you want. It's what God wants from us that matters.

"Actually, I have never denied my sin. Why should I?"

No of course you haven't. You revel in it and boast about it and think it has no power over you. I'm done talking to you, I've said all I have to say on this matter. Do with it what you will.

 

[holo]

Ignorance is bliss?

Well, Adam and Eve lived in perfect bliss as far as I know

Except that sin still exists in us, and we are not to give into it. We are free from it; the guilt of being in sin, because Christ, as you are saying, did set us free from that. Yet, that doesn't mean that we are allowed to sin freely.

But why would you want to sin? Let's suppose you COULD sin however much you like without any consequence. Is that what you would do? I mean, for me at least, the natural respons to grace and having been made blameless and a New Creation even, isn't to go out and SIN! I'm a new man, I can't think of one good reason why I should want to sin at all!

 

[holo]

Babies poop in their pants too, is that another activity you enjoy?

I'm sure I don't actually have to explain the difference between pooping your pants and masturbation to you...

Fulfilling our own personal lusts is part of our sinful nature, the one we are born with, it is not a part of our new nature that we receive with faith.

Your physiology and sexuality and musicality and stuff like that doesn't change when you are born again. Your spirit is new, not your body.

The act itself is perverted and against God's design for sexuality.

So are children perverted because they touch?

Wrong. People touch because they can't have actual sex, for whatever reason. Everyone wants sex, but since alot of people can't get it anytime they want they are forced by their own lack of self-control of their urges and circumstances to take matters into their own hands.

Except that for me at least, it has nothing to do with lack of self-control. I once went a couple of weeks without masturbating, just to see what it was like. It was no problem at all, but I did get quite painful case of "blue balls" toward the end. It was nice to experience that I didn't have to touch though. Not that I have any particular reason to refrain from it. It's not like it's hurting me or anybody else.

Eating is a meal is absolutely necessary for survival and proper functioning of your body, masturbation is not something you need to do to survive or to have your body function properly.

And neither is sex.

1 Corinthians 6, yet again. You are dead to the penalty of the law, nothing else. That is what Christ paid at the cross, the penalty the law demands.

That's not what the bible actually says, though. It says we are dead to the law, period. And not only are we dead, we are born again. And not only that, the life we live now we live in Christ.

How can Christ be the second Adam when Christ existed before Adam?

He's called the "second Adam" in the bible. The first Adam divided man and God, the second Adam reconciled us.

No you're not. You're willfully ignoring God's commands.

No, actually, I'm keeping the commandment that Adam and Eve broke.

Focus on all of it, wrath and grace, sin and forgiveness, law and gospel, don't cherry pick.

But you aren't only "cherry picking", you are making up stuff that's not in the bible - for example that we are dead only to the punishment of the law. The bible doesn't say that.

If you ignore the fact that you still sin

I don't ignore that.

You apparently have no problem with this and that speaks volumes.

You're turning it all into an enormous straw man here. "You don't agree with me that this particular thing is sin. Therefore, you willfully live in sin and you are even proud of it."

Yep, every time you sin God's wrath is incurred. It is only when you humble yourself before God and repent of your sins that God forgives you.

No, He forgave us 2000 years ago. If He was ever mad at me, He has surely laid the punishment on Christ. To say that He hasn't, that He's in fact angry with me, is baltant heresy and completely contradicts the gospel.

No, it isn't.

Oh. So tell me, Zecryphon, how do I live my life? Tell me how my average day is. You must know, since you apparently know that I'm a criminal sinner.

If you have a conscience you have the law of God.

Yes, and unbelivers will be judged according to their conscience. But we won't.

Do you even know what the Torah is? I've alerady pointed out that Paul addressed issues concerning ceremonial law and issues concerning moral law.

That's just YOUR way of categorizing it. He never said such a thing himself.

There's a lot in the Bible you don't see. Doesn't mean it's not there.

Not only am I unable to see it, you are also unable to show it. It was there, you could have shown it though.

Yes, they did. They were told what behavior was unacceptable to God.

Yes; not to eat of the tree that gave knowledge of good and evil.

The same way we are told by the 10 Commandments.

"We" aren't told anything by the ten commandments or any other part of the law. The entire law was given to Israel and Israel only. The fact that some inherent moral value among us gentiles may line up with part of the law doesn't mean it was even given to us.

"I am? Since you know that, please inform me of the crimes I'm committing."

Find out for yourself.

Oh, you can just accuse me of being a willfully sinning criminal, but you don't have to back it up in any way or tell me exactly what it is I'm doing wrong? I guess you simply don't know, then. And in that case, you shouldn't be accusing me.

No, the law exposes your wicked deeds, once they have been exposed you need to go to God in humility and repentance and ask for forgiveness.

And having done that, what next? Back to the law? Sin some more, be forgiven, sin again, be forgiven, repent, forgiveness, repent, forgiveness etc etc? Like a ping-pong match between Christ and the Law... well, I'll rather stay with, and IN, Christ 24/7.

The devil was DISARMED at the cross. His weapon? The LAW.

It keeps the focus on Christ

No, and that is extremely evident in all you guys who insist on living under the law - your focus is ALWAYS on ME, and on YOU, and on SIN.

It doesn't matter what you want. It's what God wants from us that matters.

Yes, and how was it in the beginning? GOOD. Did they have the law? No. Did they need it? No. Were they better off when they got it? NO.

You revel in it and boast about it

No, I don't.

You're a grown man and I know you know how to debate. Surely you must have better arguments than to resort to petty straw men like this.

 

[Zecryphon]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
Babies poop in their pants too, is that another activity you enjoy?

"I'm sure I don't actually have to explain the difference between pooping your pants and masturbation to you..."

Why not? If babies do it, then it's okay to do. That's your reasoning. Now, even you see how ridiculous it is.

"Your physiology and sexuality and musicality and stuff like that doesn't change when you are born again. Your spirit is new, not your body."

I said the nature was new, I never mentioned any of those things. Still putting words in my mouth I see.

"So are children perverted because they touch?"

Yep and they're sinners too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
Eating is a meal is absolutely necessary for survival and proper functioning of your body, masturbation is not something you need to do to survive or to have your body function properly.

"And neither is sex."
Sex isn't necessary for our survival? How would we reproduce ourselves without it?

"That's not what the bible actually says, though."
It says repeatedly that Christ died for our transgressions. He fulfilled the law and did not abolish it.
"It says we are dead to the law, period. And not only are we dead, we are born again. And not only that, the life we live now we live in Christ."
A life of sin is not a life lived in Christ.

"But you aren't only "cherry picking", you are making up stuff that's not in the bible - for example that we are dead only to the punishment of the law. The bible doesn't say that."
Yes it does. Christ paid our fine that we've earned through our sinful actions. He came to fulfill the law, not abolish it. The Bible says all of that. So the the moral law is still in effect, not for salvation, but to know how to live a life that is pleasing to God and that's apparently what you say you want to do, yet you get your knickers in a knot when are you are told to do so.

"You're turning it all into an enormous straw man here. "You don't agree with me that this particular thing is sin. Therefore, you willfully live in sin and you are even proud of it.""
That's an observation, not a straw man. You have no problem saying you touch and even encouraging others to do so as well. People who have read up to this point, know I am not creating a straw man, but drawing a conclusion about you from what you yourself have said.

"No, He forgave us 2000 years ago. If He was mad at me, He has surely laid the punishment on Christ. To say that He hasn't, that He's in fact angry with me, is baltant heresy and completely contradicts the gospel."
I'm not denying that he laid our punishment on Christ. Nice try at twisting what I've said. Because Christ took the punishment our sins have earned us, does that mean that God is now cool with people who continue to sin? No! That is heresy and that line of thinking is what denies the gospel message. Salvation is extended through grace, when we repent of our sins. We need to repent of the sins we still commit, when we do God is faithful to forgive us.

"Oh. So tell me, Zecryphon, how do I live my life?"
Like the rest of the world, no guilt for any wrong doing.
"Tell me how my average day is. You must know, since you apparently know that I'm a criminal sinner."
I know what you tell me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
Do you even know what the Torah is? I've alerady pointed out that Paul addressed issues concerning ceremonial law and issues concerning moral law.

"That's just YOUR way of categorizing it. He never said such a thing himself."

That's because it's a "duh" issue for them to say it. They were raised with the Torah, they knew it forwards and backwards to actually say it at that time, is unnecessary. It'd be like me telling you the Bible is split into an Old Testament and a New Testament. You'd be like "no, kidding!". Same thing here.

"Not only am I unable to see it, you are also unable to show it. It was there, you could have shown it though."

I have repeatedly and you have ignored it repeatedly. Your false accusations are absolutely pathetic.

"Yes; not to eat of the tree that gave knowledge of good and evil."

That was their rule for living a God pleasing life, yours are the 10 Commandments.

"Oh, you can just accuse me of being a willfully sinning criminal, but you don't have to back it up in any way or tell me exactly what it is I'm doing wrong?"

I have told you to run yourself through the 10 Commandments. So go do that. That's the "good person" test. Good luck passing that one.

"I guess you simply don't know, then. And in that case, you shouldn't be accusing me."

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 gives me permission to judge you and anyone else in the body of Christ. But why do you care so much about what I think? You should care what God thinks.

"And having done that, what next? Back to the law? Sin some more, be forgiven, sin again, be forgiven, repent, forgiveness, repent, forgiveness etc etc? Like a ping-pong match between Christ and the Law... well, I'll rather stay with, and IN, Christ 24/7."

Christ Himself said that the person who loves Him would keep His commands. Since you claim to be living in Chirst 24/7, you should really have no problem doing that.


"No, and that is extremely evident in all you guys who insist on living under the law - your focus is ALWAYS on ME, and on YOU, and on SIN."
Yeah, it's always somebody else's isn't it? Never are YOU the problem. No, if it weren't for us law and gospel Christians, oh things would be so much nicer. LOL

"Yes, and how was it in the beginning? GOOD. Did they have the law? No. Did they need it? No. Were they better off when they got it? NO."
God decided they needed it. But I guess you still know better than God.

"You're a grown man and I know you know how to debate. Surely you must have better arguments than to resort to petty straw men like this"
There's nothing here but someone who refuses to see the truth, that is plainly laid out before him.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Let's suppose you COULD sin however much you like without any consequence. Is that what you would do? I mean, for me at least, the natural respons to grace and having been made blameless and a New Creation even, isn't to go out and SIN! I'm a new man, I can't think of one good reason why I should want to sin at all!

This is precisely why you are receiving so much opposition, holo. You are preaching for us, saved by grace, to continue in sin, because we are under grace! Exactly what God says we cannot do!

You say you are saved, yet you boldly go out and continue to sin, without remorse, but rather, pride! You violate God's Word and Christians are not agreeing with you...of course!

 

[holo]

"I'm sure I don't actually have to explain the difference between pooping your pants and masturbation to you..."

Why not? If babies do it, then it's okay to do. That's your reasoning.

There are better places to poop though. There aren't any benefits to pooping your pants, and there's nothing negative with pooping in a toilet.

"Your physiology and sexuality and musicality and stuff like that doesn't change when you are born again. Your spirit is new, not your body."

I said the nature was new, I never mentioned any of those things. Still putting words in my mouth I see.

No, I didn't claim that you said anything, I just stated my own opinion.

"So are children perverted because they touch?"

Yep

Ooooh kayyyy....

Sex isn't necessary for our survival? How would we reproduce ourselves without it?

Sex isn't necessary for survival. Your parents had to have sex for you to be born, but nobody needs it to survive.

"That's not what the bible actually says, though."
It says repeatedly that Christ died for our transgressions. He fulfilled the law and did not abolish it.

If He didn't abolish it, what happened to the "ceremonial law" then?

But I agree, He didn't abolish it, but He fulfilled it. It has been fulfilled, God's demands for righteousness have been met, and we have been given His righteousness.

Not only did He fulfill the law, we also died with Him and were born again. Not as sinners this time, but as righteous children of God.

A life of sin is not a life lived in Christ.

Agree.

Yes it does. Christ paid our fine that we've earned through our sinful actions. He came to fulfill the law, not abolish it. The Bible says all of that. So the the moral law is still in effect, not for salvation, but to know how to live a life that is pleasing to God

No, the law doesn't have that role, especially not for christians! What pleases God is FAITH. Like Abraham had. Human morality only goes so far, anyway. Christ has (is) a MUCH higher standard than the law. Why should I look at "do not kill" when I can instead look on the Person that makes me want to die even for my enemy?

That's an observation, not a straw man.

An extremely faulty observation then. I have never encouraged sin or boasted of it.

I'm not denying that he laid our punishment on Christ. Nice try at twisting what I've said. Because Christ took the punishment our sins have earned us, does that mean that God is now cool with people who continue to sin? No! That is heresy

Yes, it is. God's will is that all come to repentance.

We need to repent of the sins we still commit, when we do God is faithful to forgive us.

Yes, and He even forgives us before we even get the idea to repent.

"Oh. So tell me, Zecryphon, how do I live my life?"
Like the rest of the world, no guilt for any wrong doing.

Well, in my part of the world people are often in a lot of guilt, believers and unbelievers alike.

And yes, I have no guilt. Because Jesus has taken all my sin and shame on Himself. I am in Christ, there is no condemnation for me.

"Tell me how my average day is. You must know, since you apparently know that I'm a criminal sinner."
I know what you tell me.

So when I tell you about how I was released from addictions and all that as I realized I wasn't under law, to you it appears like I'm admitting I'm ac criminal?

"Not only am I unable to see it, you are also unable to show it. It was there, you could have shown it though."

I have repeatedly and you have ignored it repeatedly.

Actually, you haven't provided one single scripture that says neither that masturbation is sinful or that the law was divided into several parts. Neither have I ever seen any verse that says part of the law was given to gentiles.

"Yes; not to eat of the tree that gave knowledge of good and evil."

That was their rule for living a God pleasing life, yours are the 10 Commandments.

The bible says no such thing though. Not only was the ten commandments, along with the rest of the law, given to Israel and NOT the gentiles, it is also for the wicked and the ungodly (which excludes born-again people), and they were given to "make sin exceedingly sinful" and Paul calls them the "ministry of death" - we, however, have ANOTHER and BETTER ministry - the Ministry of LIFE.

God didn't give the jews the ten commandments and say that it was Good. Rather, all who are under the law is under a CURSE.

I have told you to run yourself through the 10 Commandments. So go do that. That's the "good person" test. Good luck passing that one.

I'd rather measure myself against Jesus Christ.

You should care what God thinks.

Which is what I'm doing. We just happen to disagree on what exactly God thinks.

Christ Himself said that the person who loves Him would keep His commands. Since you claim to be living in Chirst 24/7, you should really have no problem doing that.

And I don't.

Yeah, it's always somebody else's isn't it?

Well, I'm not the one focusing on the law and people's sins and how they're breaking the law...

No, if it weren't for us law and gospel Christians, oh things would be so much nicer.

Yes, most definately. I'd rather see pure gospel christians.

"Yes, and how was it in the beginning? GOOD. Did they have the law? No. Did they need it? No. Were they better off when they got it? NO."
God decided they needed it.

No, He didn't. THEY decided they needed it. THEY asked for it. They law fruit looked just as tempting to them as it did to Adam and Eve.

 

[holo]

This is precisely why you are receiving so much opposition, holo. You are preaching for us, saved by grace, to continue in sin

OK, you obviously missed what I actually wrote. Here it is again, and I will break my long-time rule against falshy colours and huge fonts:

I mean, for me at least, the natural respons to grace and having been made blameless and a New Creation even, isn't to go out and SIN! I'm a new man, I can't think of one good reason why I should want to sin at all!

 

[Floatingaxe]

OK, you obviously missed what I actually wrote. Here it is again, and I will break my long-time rule against falshy colours and huge fonts:

I mean, for me at least, the natural respons to grace and having been made blameless and a New Creation even, isn't to go out and SIN! I'm a new man, I can't think of one good reason why I should want to sin at all!

Whatsa matta? Do you think I am blind? Or did I hit a nerve?

You consistently fornicate with a woman you refuse to marry and can't go two weeks without masturbating. That, to me sounds like a stronghold of a sexual nature in your life.

A stronghold originates with the belief in a lie....behind every lie is a fear, and behind every fear is an idol. Idols are established where a person fails to trust in the provisions of God through Jesus Christ.

Think. What is your idol? What is your fear? What is the lie?

To pull down such strongholds we use weapons of warfare that God supplies to His children: His Word, the Blood of the Cross, and the name of Jesus.

We have used the Word of God already against your lies of the enemy, and you are impervious to it. The Blood of Christ, you are spurning, and so, in the name of Jesus Christ I implore you to come to God in prayer, and ask for His supreme understanding of this area in your life and how it dislpleases Him and separates you from Him.

Make sure you have salvation, holo, for we are called to a higher standard...God's standard. We are not free to sin, but we are free FROM sin's hold on us. I see you are still in bondage, and you are not free.

2 Corinthians 10:4-5
We use God’s mighty weapons, not worldly weapons, to knock down the strongholds of human reasoning and to destroy false arguments. We destroy every proud obstacle that keeps people from knowing God. We capture their rebellious thoughts and teach them to obey Christ.


Take your thoughts captive to the obedience of Christ, holo.

 

[holo]

Whatsa matta? Do you think I am blind? Or did I hit a nerve?

You consistently fornicate with a woman you refuse to marry and can't go two weeks without masturbating. That, to me sounds like a stronghold of a sexual nature in your life.

Yes, but then you don't actually read what I'm writing. I didn't say I can't go two weeks withouth masturbating. On the contrary, I said that abstaining wasn't difficult at all. And no, I'm not fornicating. And if you'd like to know, I'm going to propose to her one of these days.

We have used the Word of God already against your lies of the enemy, and you are impervious to it.

Uh, this says more about you and your attitude than I could hope to do in several thousand words.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Yes, but then you don't actually read what I'm writing. I didn't say I can't go two weeks withouth masturbating. On the contrary, I said that abstaining wasn't difficult at all. And no, I'm not fornicating. And if you'd like to know, I'm going to propose to her one of these days.

My apologies--you were able to go two weeks! Sheesh! That still smacks to me of enslavement. You should be able to go a lifetime without that sinful behaviour.

You are going to propose? So, you have softened toward the idea of marriage? Do you plan on continuing to fornicate up until your marriage?

Uh, this says more about you and your attitude than I could hope to do in several thousand words.

You just don't get it, holo...not at all. The Word of God is what you need to live by, and you are refusing it. As I said--impervious.

 

[holo]

My apologies--you were able to go two weeks!

OK, I'll say it one more time, in case it actually gets through to you this time: abstaining from masturbation wasn't a problem. It wasn't hard at all. I could've gone as long as I wanted. I just didn't have a reason to. I did it as an experiment.

DID YOU READ WHAT I SAID THIS TIME?

You are going to propose? So, you have softened toward the idea of marriage?

I wouldn't call it "softened", but I and her have done a lot of talking about it and what it means etc etc, and I figure we're ready to do it. Not because anything else would be sin, but for our own personal reasons.

Do you plan on continuing to fornicate up until your marriage?

No. I plan to continue making love to the woman of my life though.

You just don't get it, holo...not at all. The Word of God is what you need to live by, and you are refusing it. As I said--impervious.

You're quite impervious yourself, Floatingaxe...

 

[Floatingaxe]

OK, I'll say it one more time, in case it actually gets through to you this time: abstaining from masturbation wasn't a problem. It wasn't hard at all. I could've gone as long as I wanted. I just didn't have a reason to. I did it as an experiment.

DID YOU READ WHAT I SAID THIS TIME?

I always read what you write! I like being amused. The point is--why only two weeks and why is two weeks such a big test? It must be because you are a frequent masturbator.

You can be hilarious at times.

I wouldn't call it "softened", but I and her have done a lot of talking about it and what it means etc etc, and I figure we're ready to do it. Not because anything else would be sin, but for our own personal reasons.

Maturity is attempting to raise its head. Good on you.

No. I plan to continue making love to the woman of my life though.

Oops, I spoke too soon.

You're quite impervious yourself, Floatingaxe...

Thank you! We are called to be impervious to evil, and teachers of such. I am glad you see that in me.

It must be all the spiritual armour I wear every day. That breastplate of righteousness is doing its job.