I agree...Peter and all of the disciple's believed that they were living in the "last days"...the whole crux is figuring out what the "last days" entailed...was it supposed to be an end?
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Originally posted by jenlu
I agree...Peter and all of the disciple's believed that they were living in the "last days"...the whole crux is figuring out what the "last days" entailed...was it supposed to be an end?
Originally posted by parousia70
If Peter Had no Idea, Why would he declare the Day of the Lord to Be "At Hand"? just like all the Apostles did? Isn't that dishonest to say an event is indeed "at hand" when in reality you have no idea when it will ocour?
It also explains what you were saying about James, etc. Jesus IS, indeed, near and at the door even today. He simply isn't compelled to obey our human conception of what "near" means. Why would Jesus say such a thing? It is obvious, to me, at least. Because we should ALWAYS be prepared to come face-to-face with the Lord, no matter when He returns.
Originally posted by npetreley
"A day is like a thousand years" isn't just a repetition, IMO, but it means that the Lord experiences the fullness of every second in ways we cannot possibly imagine so that he takes in 1,000 years worth of experience and information in just one day.
Originally posted by npetreley
It is only dishonest if you don't qualify what one means by "at hand" or "near." And Peter DID qualify it.
He said that Jesus isn't taking a long time because the Lord is slack in fulfilling his promises, but because the Lord is patient and longsuffering.
But most important, he tried to hammer home the point that OUR idea of "at hand" and the Lord's idea of "at hand" are two very different things. He made this point by saying that with the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like a day. If Peter were convinced that it would be in his lifetime, he certainly wouldn't have used that degree of hyperbole. He might have said "a decade is like a day" but not "a thousand years." But he specifically said (through hyperbole) that if it DOES take a thousand years, it's still "at hand" and "near" because the Lord doesn't reckon time the same way we do.
By the way, this is off-topic, but one way you can know that Peter is using hyperbole is because he compares the reckoning of time BOTH WAYS. Most people focus only on the "a thousand years like a day" to make the point that to the Lord a long, long time is no time at all, since He is eternal. But they ignore the fact that Peter says it works the other way, too. "A day is like a thousand years" isn't just a repetition, IMO, but it means that the Lord experiences the fullness of every second in ways we cannot possibly imagine so that he takes in 1,000 years worth of experience and information in just one day. (Not literally 1,000 years, of course, but in the same sense as "a picture is worth 1,000 words.")
From Parousia70
[B}Peter is quoting Psalms 90:4[/B]
knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."
Acts6:5
So, it is in this context that the Lord continues by saying, "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is NEAR, even at the very doors(v.33)". Again, this confirms that when Jesus says the "signs" take place then the time is "near and "at the doors". Will you again agree that in this case "near" and "at the doors" is judged by our human standard of time, not by the "1 day equals 1000" theory?
It's not as if Jesus is saying that when the fig tree's branch is tender it could be another thousand years before the summer is nigh,
or that when the abomination and tribulation occur the return of Christ may not happen for another 2000 years after those events, correct? In Matt 24, the "nearness" of Christ's return, using the terms, "near" and "at the door", are to be measured by human standards.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Originally posted by npetreley
I already mentioned that "generation" could be translated "race," but perhaps the more likely interpretation would be (as is implied in the context) THE GENERATION THAT SEES ALL THE SIGNS He just gave will not pass away until all these things take place.
Is the above interpretation 100% correct? I have no idea. But I do know one thing. Your interpretation is not as airtight, obvious and bulletproof as you preterists seem to think.
Listen npetreley, forget about whose claiming 'airtight' or whatever, get out your Greek study material and find the referrences to where, then how "genea" possibly means "race" -[as you keep saying] then come and enlighten us all.
Originally posted by npetreley
That's your answer? You pick out the one thing I said in passing (which I immediately replaced with another interpretation) and used that to dismiss everything else?
Originally posted by npetreley
If you really want to take that entire verse literally, then please take it ALL literally by human standards and see what you get.
If you're going to take Jesus at his word, then you're going to SEE all these things, including everything I quoted in red. Sun and moon going dark. Stars falling from heaven. The Son of Man appearing in the clouds with great glory. Angels gathering his elect. AFTER YOU SEE ALL THESE THINGS then you'll know His coming is near, even at the door.
Nobody has SEEN all those things yet.
Prophetic time is always given to be understood by how time relates to man, and not how time relates to God. Every time, without fail, always.
1 "Come, let us return to the Lord. He has torn us to pieces but he will heal us; he has injured us but he will bind up our wounds.
2 After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence.[/b]
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.
9 " 'Then those who live in the towns of Israel will go out and use the weapons for fuel and burn them up-the small and large shields, the bows and arrows, the war clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel. 10 They will not need to gather wood from the fields or cut it from the forests, because they will use the weapons for fuel. And they will plunder those who plundered them and loot those who looted them, declares the Sovereign LORD .
11 " 'On that day I will give Gog a burial place in Israel, in the valley of those who travel east toward the Sea. It will block the way of travelers, because Gog and all his hordes will be buried there. So it will be called the Valley of Hamon Gog.
12 " 'For seven months the house of Israel will be burying them in order to cleanse the land. 13 All the people of the land will bury them, and the day I am glorified will be a memorable day for them, declares the Sovereign LORD .
14 " 'Men will be regularly employed to cleanse the land. Some will go throughout the land and, in addition to them, others will bury those that remain on the ground. At the end of the seven months they will begin their search. 15 As they go through the land and one of them sees a human bone, he will set up a marker beside it until the gravediggers have buried it in the Valley of Hamon Gog. 16 (Also a town called Hamonah will be there.) And so they will cleanse the land.'
Conversely, apocalyptic imagry such as stars falling, earth splitting, heavens rolling like a scroll, God riding on a cloud, etc.. is always used as metaphore to describe commotions in, and Judgements against nations, governments and people. Every time, without fail, always.
Genesis 9:16
Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth."
Exodus 13:22
Neither the pillar of cloud by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the people.
Exodus 24:15-16
When Moses went up on the mountain, the cloud covered it, and the glory of the Lord settled on Mount Sinai. For six days the cloud covered the mountain, and on the seventh day the Lord called to Moses from within the cloud.
Numbers 9:15
On the day the tabernacle, the Tent of the Testimony, was set up, the cloud covered it. From evening till morning the cloud above the tabernacle looked like fire.
Mark 9:7
Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!"
Luke 9
28 About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James with him and went up onto a mountain to pray. 29 As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning. 30 Two men, Moses and Elijah, 31 appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem. 32 Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him.
Originally posted by npetreley
The fascinating thing about adding the qualification is that there's nothing in the Bible to test it against so it is impossible to falsify. God never predicted anything else that compares to "you will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great glory" which you can then demonstrate was symbolic. So we can't check your assertion against any other "fulfilled" prophecy of this kind, because there IS NO OTHER fulfilled prophecy of this kind.
So to come to your conclusion, you have to assume this statement about what we "will see" is symbolic, even though there's no precedent for making a clearly stated prophecy like this and not fulfilling it literally.
Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um
Mike, I said that GOD would not allow confusion concerning His plans for the return of Christ. God would not make a plan that would cause confusion. That is why Jesus' 2nd Coming will be seen by every eye, there will be no room for error, no room for confusion, no possible chance for anyone to question if Jesus really returned or not.
Now, of course Man is full of confusion. That's a whole nuther subject.
Originally posted by npetreley
So to come to your conclusion, you have to assume this statement about what we "will see" is symbolic, even though there's no precedent for making a clearly stated prophecy like this and not fulfilling it literally. You have to assume this even though it is clear (from the verses above) that God is perfectly capable of displaying fire, clouds, His glory, the glory of Jesus, etc., in a literal way, and has already done so on several occasions.
But, as for me, I'll believe the plain meaning of the text, that we'll not only see Jesus return in the clouds with great glory, but that it will be so spectacular that nobody will miss it -- that as lightning in the east...I'm sure you know the rest. [/B]
Originally posted by franklin
Hi Ms Belle, I just couldn't resist this part of your quote.... Actually this is the very problem the body of Christ has had for at least the past century and a half and that is being dependent on the authority of the church for interpretation of all scripture, instead of us allowing the scripture to be it's own interpreter! The church isn't the final authority, the scripture is! Get the picture?