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Is this TRUE?????

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by goodnewsinc, Jun 22, 2002.

  1. smaller

    smaller New Member

    25
    +0
    Peace Both and All

    Parousia 70, you asked if the Gospel age is an evil age.  I ask you has sin and death passed.  If not, then there is a simultaneous situation going on eh?  Many believers think this life is "all about us" but have you considered there are other reasons, such as this age allowing sin to become utterly sinful prior to the destruction of evil and death?  And in this time of the "acts" of sin(ners) our Great God is gracious in using them to our eternal benefit.  God saw fit to join us to suffering, as He saw fit to join His Son to suffering.

    Jenlu:



    <TABLE height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0>

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    <TD vAlign=top>So Jesus coming in the flesh did nothing?

    s:

    The clear statement of the cross is the taking of sin from mankind.&nbsp; Sin however is STILL HERE.&nbsp; It is the "attribution" that has gone away.&nbsp; When the "Perfect" comes the "imperfect" will indeed disappear.&nbsp; This is the awaiting time and the formation of hope in our hearts.

    J:

    So Jesus dying, ressurrecting, ascending to His throne did nothing? O.K. I'm not a preterist, but I do believe the "coming" discussed by Jesus happened within that generation...the words simply state it...

    s:

    see previous.

    J:

    I used to read the Bible the same as most other dispensationalist so I know that point of view well...and I was an avid proponent of the doctrine...His plain and simple discussions with His disciple's and the jewish hierarchy makes it obvious that any removal of what He said would come to pass within a generation is not needed...Then a look a secular historical as well as N.T. books it becomes obvious that the "last days" were that of the first century...

    s:

    This present evil age has not yet come to its' end.&nbsp; We can be assured that sin will become utterly sinful and will then face the wrath of God which is coming upon the whole earth.&nbsp; That Great and Terrible Day.&nbsp; Great for mankind.&nbsp; Terrible for the cause of evil.

    J:

    We've just confused it with the end of the world...but it actually just was the beginning of a "new" type of world where Jesus is King of Kings and Lord or Lords... Hebrews 9:26 But now ONCE at the Consumation Of The Ages He has been manifestED to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself...

    As you can see, the writer of Hebrews was talking about Jesus at the intersecting or convergence of the ages(old covenant age and new covenant age) when He sacrificed Himself on the Cross...

    Point is, the manner in which we live and can live is different than before the consumation of the ages(the cross and subsequent events)...as plainly stated in the Bible in my opinion of course...

    s:

    All have been bound to disobedience (Rom. 11:32)&nbsp; All will be recipients of Gods mercy.&nbsp; When His work is complete in this evil age then&nbsp;evil will be put away.

    smaller</TD></TR>

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  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Can you show how the existance of Sin indicates the non victory of righteousness?

    Are you an annhinationist or universalist? If not, you must conceed that sin and suffering continue forever if you believe that the wicked suffer eternal conscious punishment.

    Again I'll ask,&nbsp;Is the Gospel age that was&nbsp;created, indeed brought into being&nbsp;By Christ, and evil age?

    Christ created an evil age?

    &nbsp;
    &nbsp;

    Could you elaborate on your statement "sin becoming utterly sinful"?&nbsp; When is sin "Not" utterly sinful in your view?

    &nbsp;

    Peace,

    P70
     
  3. smaller

    smaller New Member

    25
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    Peace P

    P:
    Can you show how the existance of Sin indicates the non victory of righteousness?

    s:
    Sin has never been&nbsp;held against mankind.&nbsp; It has always been held against the perpetrators of sin.&nbsp; This is the very essence of the Gospel.&nbsp; BLESSED is the man who does not have sin attributed to him.&nbsp; This is the condition of every man by the physical death of Christ.&nbsp; (Romans 4:8, Psalms 1:1)


    P:
    Are you an annhinationist or universalist? If not, you must conceed that sin and suffering continue forever if you believe that the wicked suffer eternal conscious punishment.

    s:
    Universalist would be close though there is no concensus in that camp, as there is none in many camps.&nbsp; I do not believe ANY OF MANKIND will pay the sin penalty.&nbsp;&nbsp;Sin was taken away from attribution to mankind at the cross.&nbsp; Therefore NONE will suffer in hell.&nbsp; All will be separated from their sin attachment at the time of physical death.


    P:
    Again I'll ask,&nbsp;Is the Gospel age that was&nbsp;created, indeed brought into being&nbsp;By Christ, and evil age?

    Christ created an evil age?&nbsp;

    s:
    If ANYTHING exists, it exists both by the WILL and the INTENTION of our Maker.

    ACTS&nbsp;17:25&nbsp; nor is He served by human hands,&nbsp;as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;

    Romans 11:36
    For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

    Hebrews 3:4
    For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.

    In the knowledge of ALL THINGS I acknowledge that ALL THINGS serve their BUILDER somehow and in some way.

    smaller


    &nbsp;

    &nbsp;



    &nbsp;
     
  4. davo

    davo Member

    471
    +1
    G'day smaller :wave: I'm not sure if I'm reading you correctly, but my take on things is that the "age" of the old covenant under which Paul was writing, though coming to an end was still&nbsp;being practised [and of no justifying value], and this from Paul's perpective of writing about the&nbsp;futility of Law calls it - "this evil age" i.e., the age of the old covenant. The disciples generation [Jesus' "this generation"] was the generation of transition from the old to new [Gospel] covenant.

    Gal 4:1 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,&nbsp;

    2Cor 4:4 in whose case the god of this&nbsp;age has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

    This was in the process of happening in the 1st century generation, and came to fulfillment in Christ's Parousia in AD70.

    Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.&nbsp;


    The "age" or "world" to come was that of the completed New Covenant -that in which we now live.


    davo
     
  5. smaller

    smaller New Member

    25
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    Peace Davo!

    I could possibly agree with you, however the law still stands AND evil and sin are still very much present with us.

    smaller
     
  6. jenlu

    jenlu Member

    246
    +1
    npetreley

    I believe it's entirely possible that the preterist view has faults, just not their stance on when the Olivet Discourse with all the signs and wonders was fulfilled...Now let me just say to be clear, I just don't THINK it's faulty...sure it could be...I just don't think so...and none of it hinges on "you" and "this"...those type things just bolster it when trying to convince...the language is plain in my book and who Jesus is directing His indictment and warning to is obvious in my opinion...
     
  7. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    1) the Law does not stand anymore, and if it did, it would only stand for Jews, the only people it ever stood for.

    2) sin and evil may exist, but they are absolutely powerless to prevent anyone from salvation. From your previous post, i gather you agree. What puzzles me is why you look for a "further defeat" of something that has been forever stripped of its strength. How much more powerless does sin and evil need to be?
     
  8. Thunderchild

    Thunderchild Sheep in Wolf's clothing

    +1
    Non-Denom
    So far, everything I have seen that is supposedly supportive of preterism has nothing but a lamentably poor understanding of grammar to support it.
     
  9. Mike Beidler

    Mike Beidler Evolutionary Creationist

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    &nbsp;

    Such as?&nbsp; I'd be curious to know what grammar problems preterists have ...
     
  10. smaller

    smaller New Member

    25
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    Peace P70

    Paul very much served the LAW and did not say it was for the Jews only.&nbsp; He upheld the Law.&nbsp; Since he was the Apostle to the Gentiles, then we should heed his view of the Law.&nbsp;

    AS to the continued existence of sin and death their is another law STILL AT WORK in our bodies.&nbsp; It is called the law of SIN AND DEATH.&nbsp; This law has not ceased nor has it gone away.&nbsp; The law of SIN AND DEATH reigns over men on earth and will remain so until the end of IT.&nbsp; The RETURN OF THE PERFECT and the DISAPPEARANCE of SIN AND DEATH is our HOPE but not yet our reality.&nbsp;&nbsp;Even Christ in this age subjected&nbsp;Himself to DEATH.

    DEATH is ours.&nbsp; (1 Cor. 3:22)

    On the basis of the existence of the law of SIN AND DEATH Christ surely never returned and the view from preterism is therefore&nbsp; a false one.

    and God is love.

    smaller
     
  11. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

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    Just so we're on the same page as to which "law" we are talking about here, let me ask you about 1 Corr, 15:56:

    The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

    Smaller, Which "Law" did Paul claim that sin got it's strength from in this verse?

    I contend he is referencing the "Law of Moses" know as the "Old Covenant". It&nbsp;is of course the one made with Moses at Mt. Sinai. This is the Law that Biblical writers refer to when they say "the Law.". It is this Law that New Testament writers refer to and that Jesus refers to. This law only applied to the Jews during the Jewish "age." This is the Covenant God made before leading his people into Canaan. This is the Old Covenant.

    Do you agree or disagree?&nbsp;


    &nbsp;&nbsp;

    &nbsp;
     
  12. goodnewsinc

    goodnewsinc Senior Member Supporter

    +91
    Christian
    Hi, folks!

    Excuse me for barging in, but it is imperative that we do not use tunnel vision and get hung up on semantics in scriptural text to the point where we dismiss reality.&nbsp; Men have been dying before Moses was born to receive any "law".&nbsp; Abel was the first to feel the "sting of death" painfully at Cain's hands.&nbsp; The "law" involved is the "law of love".&nbsp; Cain failed in the 1st and 2nd Great Commandments.&nbsp; The Second Great Commandment is created and seated in our "nature".&nbsp; It is called the law of love.&nbsp; God is love and He created us with it.&nbsp; From birth it is first extended to embrace our parents, siblings, friends, community, nation, world of nations, and it grows in the more spiritually mature to include God and ALL in Heaven and on earth.&nbsp; This law does not need to be engraven on tables of stone.&nbsp; The seed of love is part of our creation.&nbsp; Paul alluded to the unwritten properties of law with these words:

    Romans 2: Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is
    the fulfilling of the law.


    Cain's failure at keeping the unwritten law of love seeded and created in our nature resulted in the death of Abel.&nbsp; So when we speak of "law" keep in mind that there are several "laws".&nbsp; We need wide peripheral vision when we discuss spiritual matters.&nbsp; Using tunnel vision and a narrow vista will result in misunderstanding and unnecessary debate.


    Another point: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die"!&nbsp; So why did Abel suffer that event when it was Cain who was the initial "victim" of his own demons?&nbsp; Abel was innocent, but he "died"!&nbsp; Should it not have been Cain?&nbsp; In this life ALL must be "circumcised" in order to divest the flesh and PASS OVER to the true promise land of Heaven itself.&nbsp; This is just one of the many secrets of Life held by the Creator.&nbsp; Just so we all KNOW, The Savior-Husbandman stated His first "reaping" stroke with Abel:

    Hosea 13:Hos 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

    Can you say, "Amen"?!

    GOOD NEWS, Inc. :clap: :pink: :)
     
  13. smaller

    smaller New Member

    25
    +0
    Peace P70

    &nbsp;

    P70:

    Just so we're on the same page as to which "law" we are talking about here, let me ask you about 1 Corr, 15:56:

    The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

    Smaller, Which "Law" did Paul claim that sin got it's strength from in this verse?

    s:

    Either LOVE or the WRITTEN LAW of Moses OR EVEN some NATIONAL LAWS will serve the purpose of LAW, and that PURPOSE is to reveal the PRESENCE OF the lawless one(s) who reside WITH US.


    P70:
    I contend he is referencing the "Law of Moses" know as the "Old Covenant". It&nbsp;is of course the one made with Moses at Mt. Sinai. This is the Law that Biblical writers refer to when they say "the Law.". It is this Law that New Testament writers refer to and that Jesus refers to. This law only applied to the Jews during the Jewish "age." This is the Covenant God made before leading his people into Canaan. This is the Old Covenant.

    Do you agree or disagree?&nbsp;

    s:

    The LAW was dispensed through Moses to the People of Israel.&nbsp; Of this there is NO DOUBT or dispute.&nbsp; To say though that the LAW called DO NOT MURDER applies only to the Israelites is a GRAVE misunderstanding of applicability eh?

    The bottom line with ANY LAW is to ADVISE the LAWLESS.&nbsp; JUDGE the lawless, and then CONDEMN the LAWLESS.&nbsp; This is the LAW and the WORK OF THE WRATH TO COME for transgression of the SAME.

    God is LOVE.&nbsp; Perfect Love casts out FEAR.&nbsp; FEAR is of the DEVIL.&nbsp;

    In this I see GODS VICTORY in Christ for ALL MANKIND, and wrath to come for the enemy.

    smaller
     
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