Is this TRUE?????
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franklin
Sexed up atheism = Pantheism
Hi Ms Belle, I just couldn't resist this part of your quote.... Actually this is the very problem the body of Christ has had for at least the past century and a half and that is being dependent on the authority of the church for interpretation of all scripture, instead of us allowing the scripture to be it's own interpreter! The church isn't the final authority, the scripture is! Get the picture?
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Mike Beidler
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Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um
Are you saying that God is not a God of confusion?? Hmmm....interesting concept.The preterists would have us believe the church has been in a state of confusion for nearly 2000 years!
I agree with you, no way would God allow confusion concerning the return of Christ. Like the Bible says, when Christ returns EVERYONE will know it.
There is no confusion amongst pre-tribs concerning the return of Christ? Even dispensationalists can't agree on the details. Tim LaHaye's got some wacky ideas and I came to that conclusion even when I was a pre-tribber. And isn't Jack Van Impe, with his "The Millennium will begin in 2002!" hoopla, causing confusion in the Body of Christ? And don't get me started on Hal Lindsey's prediction of a 1981 rapture. Grant Jeffrey had me convinced the tribulation would begin in 1993, too ...
No confusion ... geesh.
Don't tell me you really believe what you just wrote, Auntie!!!
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franklin
Sexed up atheism = Pantheism
Ms Belle, you amaze me! The preterists don't have to prove anything, the scripture itself proves that the church has been confused for almost that long! Don't blame us pret's! We have had our paridigm and we are just taking Jesus at His word and passing it on to our futurist brothers just like someone did to me almost one year ago!
Ms Belle, I hate to keep beating the old dead horse here but.. Jesus said He was coming back in the gereration that was living when He spoke! Are you willing to accept the word of the Lord of heaven or your own preconceived ideas about the end of the world? Speaking of authority as you mentioned at the beginning of your quote, just what does the authority of the Scripture mean to you? Or do you prefer the authority of your church over the scripture?
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Auntie
THANK YOU JESUS!!
Mike, I said that GOD would not allow confusion concerning His plans for the return of Christ. God would not make a plan that would cause confusion. That is why Jesus' 2nd Coming will be seen by every eye, there will be no room for error, no room for confusion, no possible chance for anyone to question if Jesus really returned or not.
Now, of course Man is full of confusion. That's a whole nuther subject.
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Auntie
THANK YOU JESUS!!
Hey Franklin, I was talking about goodnewsinc. He thinks God has a wife. Where did he get such an idea? By reading, studying, and interpreting the scriptures independently of the church.
btw, I made another post to you over in that other forum. The tithe thread. I expect to see a little color in your posts, and some underlining, and massive amounts of scripture references.
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The answer to the question is NO. Since we were asked to think on it, I will................thinking.............
..............still thinking.........my answer is still NO.
..............still thinking.........my answer is still NO.
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Peace All!
As this is my first post here it would appear that preterists are not in general favor? I am not one!
As to GoodNewsIncs. citings who can deny they are the Word? One can go to Israel today and see the actual text written by the hand of Isaiah. That is very comforting to me.
So it would appear then that the question posed is WILL God destroy the face of the covering ALL people and the veil covering ALL nations, as Isaiah has so testified? Uh, YES? Yes! That will be very nice. If God is love, then that is what I would EXPECT him to do!
God Is Love. He really is? He really IS!
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As this is my first post here it would appear that preterists are not in general favor? I am not one!
As to GoodNewsIncs. citings who can deny they are the Word? One can go to Israel today and see the actual text written by the hand of Isaiah. That is very comforting to me.
So it would appear then that the question posed is WILL God destroy the face of the covering ALL people and the veil covering ALL nations, as Isaiah has so testified? Uh, YES? Yes! That will be very nice. If God is love, then that is what I would EXPECT him to do!
God Is Love. He really is? He really IS!
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aggie03
Veritas Vos Liberabit
Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um
Hey Franklin, I was talking about goodnewsinc. He thinks God has a wife. Where did he get such an idea? By reading, studying, and interpreting the scriptures independently of the church.
btw, I made another post to you over in that other forum. The tithe thread. I expect to see a little color in your posts, and some underlining, and massive amounts of scripture references.
First of all if you are really a Christian then you are the church. The church of Christ is not some government that man established trying to connect different congregations together under one overarching body. That's a man made idea. And just because one person has interpretted the scriptures wrong doesn't mean that everyone else will or does. We are told to study the scriptures, and when we think that someone has done so incorrectly to tell them that. That's the only way that we can grow together. Using one person who interprets the scripture wrong to say that no one should interpret on their own would be like assuming that all Priests molest children just because there were a few isolated incidents.
The Scriptures by their own definition are the only standard, and they are the grounds on which we are to judge and correct one another.
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Auntie
THANK YOU JESUS!!
The churches interpretation of scriptures goes all the way back to the Early Church and the Apostles. Scripture interpretation has been handed down thru the ages. If Jesus had already returned, THEN THAT IS WHAT THE CHURCHES WOULD TEACH. I'm not yelling, just really wanting to put emphasis on the fact that what we believe and are taught NOW, is basically the same thing our ancestors have been taught, all the way back to the Early Church. IF Christ had returned in 70AD, then that is EXACTLY what the church would teach us! HOW COULD THEY POSSIBLE MISS SUCH A GREAT EVENT!!
(not yelling, just talking loud.
)
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Mike Beidler
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Originally posted by Auntie_Belle_Um
The churches interpretation of scriptures goes all the way back to the Early Church and the Apostles. Scripture interpretation has been handed down thru the ages. If Jesus had already returned, THEN THAT IS WHAT THE CHURCHES WOULD TEACH. I'm not yelling, just really wanting to put emphasis on the fact that what we believe and are taught NOW, is basically the same thing our ancestors have been taught, all the way back to the Early Church. IF Christ had returned in 70AD, then that is EXACTLY what the church would teach us! HOW COULD THEY POSSIBLE MISS SUCH A GREAT EVENT!!
(not yelling, just talking loud.
Hmmmm ... so tell me what the definitive Church answer is for the following questions:
(1) Is man free to choose God, or does God choose him?
(2) Are tongues still an active gift of the Holy Spirit?
(3) What is the proper manner of Church government?
(4) Can infants be baptized?
And the list goes on ... Where is this supposed "official commentary" of the Scriptures passed down through the ages? What infallible recepticle or church has possessed the totality of "the truth"?
If we're talking about sheer numbers here, Auntie, then the Catholic Church has got us Protestants beat. Do you not agree that the Protestant movement "recovered" Biblical truths lost in the sea of man-made tradition (with consideration given to the belief that a small remnant clung to the truth of God throughout the ages)?
Or could it be that the early church (post-AD 70) made the same mistake that the Jews did in looking for a physical kingdom established on earth? I challenge you to produce one quotation by Christ in which he said the Kingdom of God was physical ... While you're at it, you can also quote the voluminous amount of statements by Christ indicating that the Kingdom of God was spiritual in nature (e.g., "in your midst," "within you," "not of this world," etc.).
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Auntie
THANK YOU JESUS!!
Mike,
I'm basically refering to the Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy [universal] and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
I'm basically refering to the Nicene Creed:
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy [universal] and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
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Exactly Mike, Christ is NOT coming back to the "fleshly whims" of mankind, always seeking a sign of this and that, nor to a fleshly Jerusalem with reinstituted fleshly sacrifices to rule over "fleshly" people etc! Even back then "they rushed to make him king" -as long as he filled their belly he was in vogue. Dispensational Futurism is no different, always looking through temporal eyes -never perceiving the spiritual, covenantal depth of our redemption. Yet we know Jesus no more according to the flesh.
2Cor 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
All end-time prophecy was fulfilled in the "this generation" of their day [funny how these scriptures all of a sudden don't fit their no Ph.D "clear simple understanding"]. Not some here and maybe some there, and then possibly some in the future -all was fulfilled then, according to the words of Jesus himself.
Luke 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
davo
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Just five verses later, Luke 21 says...
Now let's start from the beginning and see what's "simple and clear."
These? Which days are these? The days when Jesus spoke? The days from now on? The days in the context of this particular prophecy which was not yet fulfilled when Jesus spoke it? The days when armies surround Jerusalem? Didn't that happen several times since Jesus spoke that? Isn't that happening now, and likely to happen again?
Now what does "all things which are written" mean? ALL things? Does that mean Alexander the great rebuilt Tyre and attacked it again in 70AD? That was something that was written to be fulfilled, wasn't it? Ah, so you don't mean ALL things written! So what could this mean? Obviously, it meant this prediction had to happen otherwise ALL would NOT be fulfilled. Some things written could have beeen fulfilled before, and some things written could be fulfilled after. But without this event, not ALL things would be fulfilled. IMO that's the plain and simple meaning. Any other meaning would be nonsensical.
Now let's jump 5 verses...
So now what's the clear and simple meaning of THIS verse?
Who are THEY? Parallel passages say the nations of the earth, which fits with the verses leading up to Luke 21:27.
But what do we mean by "see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory?" I know this is a stretch, so please bear with me. But I'm guessing it means that they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
It seems to me that the meaning of Luke 21:22 is fairly simple, but the meaning of Luke 21:27 is much simpler. That begs the question: If preterism is based on the simple meaning of one verse, how is it that just 5 verses later you have to come up with a spiritual interpretation for a verse that is even SIMPLER than the first?
Why? Because it didn't happen that way, which puts your interpretation of the first verse in jeopardy. Is this the way we're supposed to interpret scripture?
Now I'm not claiming I have the true meaning of scripture in my pocket, not by a long shot. But it seems to me that the above process should tell you that preterism has some serious problems.
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Because these are the basic truths of the bible. An accurate compilation of basic truths to summarize our belief.
I want to hear more about Jesus descending from the clouds. This has to be physical. I too am going out on a limb, but it seems Jesus is saying he will descend from the clouds for all nations to see.
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aggie03
Veritas Vos Liberabit
This still doesn't answer my question. I know that this summarizes what the catholic denomination believes to be the basic truths - so if they are the basic truths then why do you even need the creed, a man-made creed. If these are indeed the basic truths they should be easily seen by anyone who reads the Bible - what more do you need? Paul warns about things like this in Galatians. Why doesn't the Bible tell us that we should all get together, come up with a creed and establish an overarching government to decided what we believe? In fact it does the opposite. The Bible tells us that we and we alone are responsible for our individual salvation, and that we will stand alone before God on our judgement day.
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"Which days are these?" -according to the text i.e., verse 20 "But when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [Jesus was not speaking into a vacuum, the YOU Jesus refers to is his audience. And what would THEY see indicatating coming destruction? -Jerusalem surrounded by armies. How simple is it to believe Jesus' words -how more simple for his hearers to believe his words, unless you believe Jesus was lying to them]
I'm not sure how you reason Alexander the Great from 3-4 centuries before into 70AD -but I have noticed that with Futurism many things are possible. The ALL THINGS is in referrence to ALL the verses before that Jesus just stated would occur in that generation of hearers. And not only that but other OT prophecies about the coming in of the New Covenant.
Once again the text in context and logic provides the answer. The THEY is none other than Jesus' audience -how simple to believe. The parallel Mt 24:30 mentions "the tribes of the earth" [Gk earth=Land, hence "tribes" -of what? -the Land of ISRAEL!
Do a study of God's coming in judgment throughout the OT and you'll find some describe it in terms of "coming on the clouds" -they were ALL literal WITHOUT necessitating "physicality."
Who were THEY that were to SEE all these things? -THOSE TO WHOM THEY WERE WRITTEN -the 1st century people.
davo
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I believe scripture istelf testifies what Jesus meant when He said "all things written", for In Luke 24:44, Jesus clarifies His earlier statement:
Luke 24:44
Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."
Unless you can show How the "all things written" of Luke 21 is a different "all things written" from Luke 24, the conclusion must be that they are the same.
To say that Jerusalem had to be destroyed so all things written would be able to be fulfilled thousands of years later is quite a stretch IMO, and is in no way unique to AD70, for that could be said of the Virgin Birth, Miracles Jesus performed, the crusifixion, the third day rising, the ascention, etc...all of those events had to take place so all tings written could be fulfilled, but Jesus places special emphasis on Jerusalems destruction as the event that would fulfill all things written by the law, prophets and psalms concerning Him.
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Npetr, Jesus prophesied to His disiples, saying "when you see Jerusalem encompassed by armies, know that it's desolation is near"
Do you really believe this was an "open ended" prophesy, aplicable to all generations? Was Jesus telling all Christians that each time they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, it's desolation would be near?
If You or I today see Jerusalem surrounded By armies, will it's desolation be near?
I seem to recall an event in 1967, where Jerusalem was encompassed by armies totally out numbering Israel's army.
If Jesus prophesy in Luke 21 was indeed aplicble to all generations, then Jerusalem would have to have been laid desolate (again) back in 1967 right?
Since It wasn't, does that mean Jesus faild in His "open ended" prophesy about armies surrounding Jerusalem?
No, because it was not "open ended". It was very specific".
Jesus was warning His 1st century disciples about the desolation of Jerusalem that was to ocour in 70. I do not see how this conclusion can be avoided by the honest expositor of scripture.
Did the 1st century diciples see Jerusalem surounded by armies after Jesus fortold them that they would see it?
YES
Was Jerusalem laid desolate?
YES.
Npetr,
Just exactly how many times throughout history does God need to fulfill a partucluar prophesy before you can agree it has been fulfilled?
2 times? 5 times? 27 times?
Why do you believe once isn't enough?
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