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Featured Is this the number of the beast!

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by davp, Apr 13, 2018.

  1. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
  2. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
  3. marineimaging

    marineimaging Texas Baptist with attitude

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    I am not going to get into scriptures but I can say that we are not supposed to place our actions or belief or thoughts on "numbers". The Bible does admit that they do exist. It is a product of old scholars and it was done over many years, but we are instructed to stay away from it because it can be twisted to the users desire. We are to read the Word for what it means.
     
  4. jamesbond007

    jamesbond007 Well-Known Member

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    I'm new to CF and was led to the following from other discussions.

    If you want to figure this out, then Daniel 7 is a good start for the prophecy of end times. Daniel dreams about four beasts and they come out of the sea. Each beast represents a kingdom or nation. All are great empires. The waters represent the populace. The first kingdom is Babylon. The second beast represents Medo-Persia. The third beast is Alexander the Great's conquered lands which represent Greece. What is the fourth? Hint: The ten heads represent Western Europe.

    That said, I'm going to stop here as further discussion evolves into things we do not know. I think this is where "wisdom" is necessary. "But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.” Daniel 12:4 Dwelling on the antichrist leads to much that is not true. If one believes in the untruth, then it leads to deception.

    “These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so” Acts 17:11

    If one isn't sure about a new teaching or what someone says using scripture, then read it for yourself and see if it has the feel of God's Word, i.e. is backed by the Holy Spirit.
     
  5. Gracia Singh

    Gracia Singh Newbie Supporter

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    Honey, you don't have to figure everything out in the Bible 100%. I can imagine that attempting to do so could drive some people nuts.
     
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  6. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
  7. vinsight4u

    vinsight4u Contributor

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    /nvm
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
  8. FIRESTORM314

    FIRESTORM314 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My wife says I'm a beast :)
     
  9. marineimaging

    marineimaging Texas Baptist with attitude

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    As in the last chapter and verse of John.
    The best verse I could find that helped me understand why I couldn't find everything I was looking for -
    John 21:25 (KJV)
    25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
    That verse hit me like a ton of bricks. I mean, I might have asked a hundred times why I could not find the answers I was looking for but then one day THAT verse popped into my view and I suddenly KNEW the answer. Imagine if the Bible were written in a manner that could answer every question that is now being addressed in science books. Imagine if every answer of the universe were written down in text fashion. Even today, with all the resources we have, every answer finds a new question and every question leads to a thousand answers. Imagine the books written to answer every question every man could ask since the beginning of time and to the end of time. Would mankind read them? Or would mankind ignore them. It is my experience that the men I know would destroy them as fantasy.
     
  10. jesus316

    jesus316 All Truth is in Jesus Supporter

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    666 = Nero
     
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  11. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Just a curiosity. The number of years between Nebuchadnezzar first conquering Judea and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is 667 years.
     
  12. jamesbond007

    jamesbond007 Well-Known Member

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    Which do you want to discuss -- the other visions, the more beasts or both?
     
  13. jamesbond007

    jamesbond007 Well-Known Member

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    The fourth beast is the most terrifying to Daniel. Its ten horns represent the countries in Europe and the beast represents the Roman Empire, and presumably the papacy.

    "7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, terrifying and dreadful and exceedingly strong. It had great iron teeth; it devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things." Daniel 7:8

    The next verses has Daniel describing his vision of heaven. He describes Jesus as the "Ancient of Days."

    The Ancient of Days Reigns
    9 “As I looked,
    thrones were placed,
    and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
    his clothing was white as snow,
    and the hair of his head like pure wool;
    his throne was fiery flames;
    its wheels were burning fire.
    10 A stream of fire issued
    and came out from before him;
    a thousand thousands served him,
    and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;
    the court sat in judgment,
    and the books were opened.

    11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time." Daniel 9:12

    Part of what Daniel saw is in the past with the four beasts, but the fourth beast also represents the future for us. The angel Gabriel explains to Daniel about the future prophecy in the verses after that.

    I'll stop here. The rest, i.e. future for us, has been interpreted many ways, so I can only offer one explanation. The fourth beast is killed and its body burned and a "son of man" comes from heaven in the clouds and is led before the Ancient of Days. This man is given much power and becomes world leader. He is the Antichrist. The term antichrist may not just mean that he is against Christianity or Jesus. It may mean that he wants to assume the role of Christ Jesus, i.e. trick people into believing he is the true Jesus.
     
  14. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Umm wow. Never heard that one before. You don’t see any coralation between Daniels interpretation of the Kings dream and this vision? 4 empires then the kingdom of God?
     
  15. jamesbond007

    jamesbond007 Well-Known Member

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    Shudder. First, let's separate the kingdom of God from the four. The kingdom of God is the stone in Nebuchadnezzar's dream.

    "44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever," Daniel 2:44. This is still to come and part of the future mystery.

    The four empires or kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and the Roman Empire were part of the king's dream. Babylon as represented by the head in the king's dream was more powerful than the next two, but not the fourth. The fourth was the strongest of them all, but had a feet of clay or weakness. It means the four kingdoms will become divided and in turmoil. Daniel correctly described the king's dream with the help of God. He also correctly foretold of what was to happen and was promoted even though King N didn't completely understand its meaning. Babylon is Iraq, Medo-Persia is Iran, Ancient Greece is not the same as today's Greece and is Turkey. The Roman Empire became western Europe, but today is the European Union. Is that the fourth empire that was prophecized?

    "24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished and rose up in haste. He declared to his counselors, “Did we not cast three men bound into the fire?” They answered and said to the king, “True, O king.” 25 He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.” Daniel 3:24-25

    Later in the story of Daniel, we see "a son of the gods" again with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the furnace. However, only the three walk out to be met by the King N. This is again a reference to the Antichrist and the iron/clay empire of what is to come.
     
  16. Daniel Martinovich

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    So there is no possibility in thinking that these two visions/dreams are not prophecies of the same events and the son of man is the messiah?
     
  17. jamesbond007

    jamesbond007 Well-Known Member

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    The son of man is not the messiah, but is the answer to the million dollar question. I think he takes the place of the messiah by deception. Lucifer wanted to take God's place in heaven or be an equal co-leader is one interpretation. Instead, he became god of the world, but is limited in his powers by God. Many will think he is the messiah as more people do not believe in the Bible than in the past. Even the believers could be deceived as they have their own interpretations. However, we still have ways to go before finding out. Thanks for the discussion. I find out more about this through discussion.
     
  18. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    I don't see why you are reading all that into the text. After all one of he things Jesus called himself was the Son of Man. It would seem the far greater weight as far as meaning is the correlation with the first prophecy in Daniel. Four Empires then the Kingdom of God.
    Daniel 2: Four empires then:
    44. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it will crush and bring to an end all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
    Daniel 7: Four empires then:
    13. I saw in the night visions, and look, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14. And there was given him an empire, and glory, and dominion, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his empire is an everlasting empire, which shall not pass away, and his dominion that which shall not be destroyed.
    Is it perhaps this interpretation of verses 13-14 that is throwing you for a loop?
    27. And the kingdom and empire, and the greatness of the dominion under the whole heaven, will be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all empires shall serve and obey him.
    Says the same thing in Daniel 2
    44. And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people
     
  19. jamesbond007

    jamesbond007 Well-Known Member

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    So you're saying that Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 are describing the same end times prophecy? That the one "like the Son of man" refers to the Messiah and is actually the second coming of Christ Jesus? It is confusing because the four beasts describe the past as well as the future.

    What about the description of the antichrist in Daniel 8? Son of man refers to Daniel. "15 While I, Daniel, was watching the vision and trying to understand it, there before me stood one who looked like a man. 16 And I heard a man’s voice from the Ulai calling, “Gabriel, tell this man the meaning of the vision.”

    17 As he came near the place where I was standing, I was terrified and fell prostrate. “Son of man,” he said to me, “understand that the vision concerns the time of the end.”

    18 While he was speaking to me, I was in a deep sleep, with my face to the ground. Then he touched me and raised me to my feet.

    19 He said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end. 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between its eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power.

    23 “In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise. 24 He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause astounding devastation and will succeed in whatever he does. He will destroy those who are mighty, the holy people. 25 He will cause deceit to prosper, and he will consider himself superior. When they feel secure, he will destroy many and take his stand against the Prince of princes. Yet he will be destroyed, but not by human power.

    26 “The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.”

    27 I, Daniel, was worn out. I lay exhausted for several days. Then I got up and went about the king’s business. I was appalled by the vision; it was beyond understanding." Daniel 8:15-27

    What about the verse, "8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things." Daniel 7:8 Isn't the little horn the antichrist?

    The antichrist as part of the unholy trinity comes up in Revelation 13 and 14. That's where I got the antichrist masquerading as Christ Jesus. Reading it again, the antichrist may not be Satan. Satan would be the one replacing God the Father as he tried to do in heaven.
     
  20. Daniel Martinovich

    Daniel Martinovich Friend Supporter

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    Yes, the end time prophecy of the age of those four gentile empires. Which is different than the end time prophecy of the Old Covenant age which you are referring to in Daniel chapter 8.

    The problem your facing is that your trying to insert certain end time teachings into this text rather than just taking the text for what it plainly states.
    Daniel 8:17......O son of man: for at the time of the end shall the vision be. The rest of the interpretation shows this is the end of the Old Covenant Age 19. And he said, look, I will make you understand what shall be in the final period of wrath: This final period of wrath began with the wars between the Greek kings if Syria and the Greek kings of Egypt with the whole region being conquered by Rome and then the nation of Israel being destroyed in 70 AD. for at the time appointed the end shall be. The end of the OC age. 20. The ram which you saw having the two horns are the kings of Media and Persia. 21. And the rough goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22. Now that being broken, whereas four stood in its place, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23. And in the latter time of their kingdom, The latter time of the Greek Empire that was divided up into four sections. when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce expression, skilled in intrigues, shall stand up. Antiochus IV Epiphanies. 24. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and accomplish, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25. And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
    Just so you know what this man did to ancient Israel:
    In short, he got a large number of the Israelite's to apostatize and make sacrifices to Zeus. Then after a humiliating affair with Rome he got back into Jerusalem deceitfully. He murdered and sold into slavery approx. 160,000 Jews. He stopped the daily offering and desecrated the temple. Plundered and burned the city. Burned the books of the law, forbade any celebrations of any of the feasts. He set up an idol of Zeus at the alter of burnt offering. He sacrificed a pig on the alter. (The abomination of desolation.) He forced the Jews to sacrifice a pig on the 25th of each month to celebrate his birthday. He sought to exterminate Judaism and Hellenize them. ie: Convert them to the customs and religion of the Greeks.
     
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