Is this a legitimate request?

[Akureyri]

Akureyri,
I get the feeling that you aren't really seeking to understand Christian beliefs, as I have tried to explain Christian beliefs in responses to your questions. I get the feeling that whatever answer I would give you, it will not satisfy you unless it agrees with your views. However, Christian beliefs are what they are, we don't change them to suit peoples' personal opinions about what God should be like.

With respect to this particular discussion, I'm trying to get a sense of whether or not my request is legitimate. And if it is not, why isn't it legitimate?

I think it's fantastic that you are upset with the evil things that happen in the world. So am I. And even more so, so is God. He is more upset with it than you and I combined. And He will not let anyone get away with any of it.

Really? Then why doesn't God stop rapists from raping children? Why doesn't God alert the people of Joplin or Tuscaloosa that a massive tornado is about to rip their city to shreds?

I understand from your posts that in your view the fair thing would be to "enter the scene immediately and stop all bad things from happening" and that you refuse to accept God's existence since that's not happening. As a human I can totally see where you're coming from, it would "make sense".

Precisely. We can tell what someone's priorities are by their actions. If I say I love you, but then deceive you, lie to you, rape your children and steal from you, would you believe my words or my actions?

But as a Christian I also know that there is more to reality than what I can see, hear and understand. I know that God WILL punish. I know that God is and will comfort those who are hurting.

Please enlighten me. How do you know these things about God?

Do I see the whole picture? Do I fully comprehend with my mind and thoughts what "fairness" really is? No I don't. But I do know that God is greater than I, greater than you, and greater than anyone else.

How do you know this about God?

God is God. He has no beginning and no end. He is what He is and He doesn't change to fit the description you or someone else may come up with, a "god good enough to be real".

Come on. You can do better than that. Precisely what real thing in this universe is it you are calling "God"?

I encourage you to study the Bible. Read to see what He has revealed about Himself.

The Bible is a book written by humans. Please explain how you came to believe that facts about God are revealed in the Bible. Does the Bible contain a FAQ about God? Is there a section in the Bible which clearly describes what God is?

He, God Himself, has died also for you.

Really? Earlier, you said God had no beginning and no end. Now you are saying that God ceased to exist, ceased to live, ceased to function, lost strength or became indifferent.

die1 [dahy] Show IPA
verb (used without object), died, dy·ing.
1.
to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital functions; become dead.
2.
(of something inanimate) to cease to exist: The laughter died on his lips.
3.
to lose force, strength, or active qualities: Superstitions die slowly.
4.
to cease to function; stop: The motor died.
5.
to be no longer subject; become indifferent: to die to worldly matters.

He took your sins upon Himself. Your sins and your unbelief deserve only hell and eternal punishment. (Same with my sins!) Jesus died for your sins.

Why should my lack of belief be punished by eternal punishment when all available evidence doesn't suggest a god exists.

How do you know that one's sins and unbelief deserve hell and eternal punishment?

What exactly is hell?

What exactly is eternal punishment?

Believe and you will have eternal life with Him in paradise.

What must one believe to have this eternal life in paradise?

What if all available evidence would make one a liar if they were to believe?

 

[Akureyri]

No, let's not say those things. We don't get to say how God should act or react. We don't get to set the rules that God needs to follow in order for us to be able to accept the fact that He exists.

I'm not trying to set rules. Read again:

Let's say I am capable of preventing your child from being raped. And let's say I care about your child. Let's say the amount one cares can be ranked from 1 to 10, and the amount of care one must have to stop a rape if they are capable of stopping the rape would be 8. If the person or being is capable of preventing the rape, but doesn't, then we would know that person or being's level of care is less than 8 - or not enough to prevent the rape of the child.

Is there anything about that which you don't understand?

*
Can you please address my points below which are in bold font.

1. You are wrong when you say I have "custom tailored" my "definition of create" to "suit my needs". I simply pointed out the simple FACT that when Christian theology says God "created" all things, it is using the word "created" in a sense which involves bringing things into being, which is clearly inconsistent with the sense you use the word created in when you say you have "created" a Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet.

If I create a spreadsheet, did I not bring that spreadsheet into being?

Look up the doctrine of creation in any Christian dogmatics textbook, and you can verify to yourself that this is so. You have no right to decide what "create" is to mean in the context of Christian theology; this is something Christian theology decides. (Just like e.g. Buddhists get to decide what they mean, Sikhs what they mean, etc etc.) So your talk about using "fallacious argument forms" is just ridiculous.

So you get to pick and choose which things that were "brought into being" were created and which were not created. It sounds like a God of the Gaps argument. If you know how it came into being (e.g. the spreadsheet), then according to Christian theology it wasn't created. If you don't know how it came into being (e.g. the universe), then according to Christian theology, it was created. Now I clearly understand where you're coming from.

2. I believe that "God created all things", yes. But OF COURSE, in saying this it is assumed that God himself isn't one of the "things" that God has created.

If God created all things, but did not create himself, then God - by definition - is not a thing. How can something that is not a thing create things?

This should go without saying to anyone who has a feel for the English language. However, if someone wants to be picky and say that "if God created everything then he must have created himself, since he is something", then, in order to please these people, we might restate our same claim in these words: "God created everything, himself excepted".

Then who or what created God?

 

[cerette]

With respect to this particular discussion, I'm trying to get a sense of whether or not my request is legitimate. And if it is not, why isn't it legitimate?


Really? Then why doesn't God stop rapists from raping children? Why doesn't God alert the people of Joplin or Tuscaloosa that a massive tornado is about to rip their city to shreds?


Precisely. We can tell what someone's priorities are by their actions. If I say I love you, but then deceive you, lie to you, rape your children and steal from you, would you believe my words or my actions?


Please enlighten me. How do you know these things about God?


How do you know this about God?


Come on. You can do better than that. Precisely what real thing in this universe is it you are calling "God"?


The Bible is a book written by humans. Please explain how you came to believe that facts about God are revealed in the Bible. Does the Bible contain a FAQ about God? Is there a section in the Bible which clearly describes what God is?


Really? Earlier, you said God had no beginning and no end. Now you are saying that God ceased to exist, ceased to live, ceased to function, lost strength or became indifferent.

die1 [dahy] Show IPA
verb (used without object), died, dy·ing.
1.
to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital functions; become dead.
2.
(of something inanimate) to cease to exist: The laughter died on his lips.
3.
to lose force, strength, or active qualities: Superstitions die slowly.
4.
to cease to function; stop: The motor died.
5.
to be no longer subject; become indifferent: to die to worldly matters.


Why should my lack of belief be punished by eternal punishment when all available evidence doesn't suggest a god exists.

How do you know that one's sins and unbelief deserve hell and eternal punishment?

What exactly is hell?

What exactly is eternal punishment?


What must one believe to have this eternal life in paradise?

What if all available evidence would make one a liar if they were to believe?

The Bible is not just a book written by humans. It is verbally inspired by God, it is God's word. (Look up "verbal inspiration") God Himself opened my heart to believe that whatever the Bible says about Him is true.

I don't agree that we can always to 100% tell what someone's priorities are by their actions. I certainly wouldn't go as far as saying that just because we can get an idea of a human's priorities by his/her actions, we can do the same about God. God is not like us flawed humans. God is perfect. God is way beyond what we can comprehend. So I can't sit here and say that I can judge His priorities based on what I believe His actions to be or not be. I don't know the universe and every dimension about reality in enough detail to be able to make claims about God's priorities etc.
I think there are cases when a person who loves another person still does unloving things. I bet ya many unfaithful spouses love their spouse, yet they cheat on them. Many of us have also lied to people we love. We don't go as far as raping them but I doubt that even you are always 100% loving toward those that you love.

You can learn more about hell, punishment etc in the Bible, but to give you a short answer: Hell is a place away from God and it's no fun there.

The only thing that will get anyone to heaven is faith in Jesus Christ as your Savior. Read John 3:16.

 

[cerette]

I'm not trying to set rules. Read again:

Let's say I am capable of preventing your child from being raped. And let's say I care about your child. Let's say the amount one cares can be ranked from 1 to 10, and the amount of care one must have to stop a rape if they are capable of stopping the rape would be 8. If the person or being is capable of preventing the rape, but doesn't, then we would know that person or being's level of care is less than 8 - or not enough to prevent the rape of the child.

Is there anything about that which you don't understand?

*
Can you please address my points below which are in bold font.


If I create a spreadsheet, did I not bring that spreadsheet into being?


So you get to pick and choose which things that were "brought into being" were created and which were not created. It sounds like a God of the Gaps argument. If you know how it came into being (e.g. the spreadsheet), then according to Christian theology it wasn't created. If you don't know how it came into being (e.g. the universe), then according to Christian theology, it was created. Now I clearly understand where you're coming from.


If God created all things, but did not create himself, then God - by definition - is not a thing. How can something that is not a thing create things?


Then who or what created God?

You can use the word "create" in different senses, as I am sure you already know. When you create a spreadsheet, you didn't start with nothing and end up with a spreadsheet. You started with things that are already there: a computer, some math skills, and other things that other people have already created using science or whatever.
When we talk about God having created everything (except Himself) we talk about how in the beginning there was nothing except God, and that God created nature, the universe, humans, animals etc etc. God also blessed us with the ability to use the things He has created to make other things. Example: We know how to use trees (created by God) to build furniture. Now God didn't create tables and chairs that we go and pick in the woods; but He did create the wood that we use to make the stuff. So just because I bake a pie today doesn't mean that I started with nothing and ended up with a pie. I started with flour, eggs etc and ended up with a pie.

God is not a created being. He doesn't have a beginning. He has always been.
In an earlier post I tried to explain your question about "if God created everything he must be created".

I still get the feeling that you wish to fit Christianity into the frame of your liking. That's not gonna work though. Christianity is what it is, and you can't require that it needs to fit your frame.

 

[cerette]

Many Christians I know claim that God knows everything and wants everyone to believe he exists. They also claim that they communicate back and forth with God.

So I'll say I'm thinking of a number from 1 to ten million. I'll ask the Christian to ask God what number I'm thinking of and when God reports back to them with the number that they share it with me. If they are right that God wants me to believe he exists, that God knows everything and that they can communicate back and forth with God, then they should have no trouble producing the number. But they refuse to take me up on my offer. As I don't see anything wrong with this request, it suggests that the Christians making these three claims aren't being intellectually honest.

God knows everything but He hasn't promised to communicate with us one on one in the way described above. I don't know why, but He doesn't give us the answers to quiz-questions in order to prove that He is real.
He uses other ways to show that He is real, but not this particular "think of a # and God will give me the answer" thing.

If you are genuinely interested in learning more about Christian beliefs I would encourage you to study the Bible. I can give you a link to an online instruction course if you wish.

 

[Akureyri]

The Bible is not just a book written by humans. It is verbally inspired by God, it is God's word. (Look up "verbal inspiration") God Himself opened my heart to believe that whatever the Bible says about Him is true.

How do you know that the Bible is not just a book written by humans?

I don't agree that we can always to 100% tell what someone's priorities are by their actions. I certainly wouldn't go as far as saying that just because we can get an idea of a human's priorities by his/her actions, we can do the same about God. God is not like us flawed humans. God is perfect. God is way beyond what we can comprehend. So I can't sit here and say that I can judge His priorities based on what I believe His actions to be or not be. I don't know the universe and every dimension about reality in enough detail to be able to make claims about God's priorities etc.

If one posits a god that loves everyone and can do anything, then in the presence of mass calamity, we know that this god doesn't exist. Or to be more specific, it can't love everyone enough to do things like prevent a massive earthquake from striking Haiti.

I think there are cases when a person who loves another person still does unloving things. I bet ya many unfaithful spouses love their spouse, yet they cheat on them. Many of us have also lied to people we love. We don't go as far as raping them but I doubt that even you are always 100% loving toward those that you love.

There are degrees to which one can love. An unfaithful spouse doesn't love his/her spouse ENOUGH to not be unfaithful. A liar doesn't love the people he/she has lied to ENOUGH to not lie. Likewise, if your god exists, it doesn't love innocent child rape victims ENOUGH to prevent the rapes.

You can learn more about hell, punishment etc in the Bible, but to give you a short answer: Hell is a place away from God and it's no fun there.

Is there a FAQ in the Bible? Is there a description of hell and God in the Bible?

How could you know that Hell is a place away from God?
How could you know that it is no fun in Hell?

The only thing that will get anyone to heaven is faith in Jesus Christ as your Savior. Read John 3:16.

Are you defining "heaven" as the "place" where those who have faith in Jesus are?

*
You didn't address some of my questions/points. Once again, look for the bold font below:

Akureyri,
I get the feeling that you aren't really seeking to understand Christian beliefs, as I have tried to explain Christian beliefs in responses to your questions. I get the feeling that whatever answer I would give you, it will not satisfy you unless it agrees with your views. However, Christian beliefs are what they are, we don't change them to suit peoples' personal opinions about what God should be like.

With respect to this particular discussion, I'm trying to get a sense of whether or not my request is legitimate. And if it is not, why isn't it legitimate?

I think it's fantastic that you are upset with the evil things that happen in the world. So am I. And even more so, so is God. He is more upset with it than you and I combined. And He will not let anyone get away with any of it.

Really? Then why doesn't God stop rapists from raping children? Why doesn't God alert the people of Joplin or Tuscaloosa that a massive tornado is about to rip their city to shreds?

But as a Christian I also know that there is more to reality than what I can see, hear and understand. I know that God WILL punish. I know that God is and will comfort those who are hurting.

Please enlighten me. How do you know these things about God?

Do I see the whole picture? Do I fully comprehend with my mind and thoughts what "fairness" really is? No I don't. But I do know that God is greater than I, greater than you, and greater than anyone else.

How do you know this about God?

God is God. He has no beginning and no end. He is what He is and He doesn't change to fit the description you or someone else may come up with, a "god good enough to be real".

Come on. You can do better than that. Precisely what real thing in this universe is it you are calling "God"?

I encourage you to study the Bible. Read to see what He has revealed about Himself.

The Bible is a book written by humans. Please explain how you came to believe that facts about God are revealed in the Bible. Does the Bible contain a FAQ about God? Is there a section in the Bible which clearly describes what God is?

He, God Himself, has died also for you.

Really? Earlier, you said God had no beginning and no end. Now you are saying that God ceased to exist, ceased to live, ceased to function, lost strength or became indifferent.

Did God cease to exist as you are indicating by saying he died? Or do you believe God is still living?

He took your sins upon Himself. Your sins and your unbelief deserve only hell and eternal punishment. (Same with my sins!) Jesus died for your sins.

Why should my lack of belief be punished by eternal punishment when all available evidence doesn't suggest a god exists?

How do you know that one's sins and unbelief deserve hell and eternal punishment?

What exactly is hell?

What exactly is eternal punishment?

Believe and you will have eternal life with Him in paradise.

What must one believe to have this eternal life in paradise?

What if all available evidence would make one a liar if they were to believe?

 

[cerette]

The Holy Spirit (one of the three persons in the Trinity, are you familiar with the Christian definition of the Trinity?) has awakened faith in my heart to believe the Bible to be the word of God, and to believe what is written in it. There are many verses and passages in the Bible telling us things about God. Too many for me to remember off by heart.
The reason I believe these things to be true is because the Holy Spirit has awakened faith my heart to believe these things to be true.
The answers to what hell is can be found in the Bible. No, it doesn't give a super-duper-detailed account, but it gives detail enough to get the idea what it's like. I think you already know that, and I am wondering if perhaps your asking me isn't really because you truly wonder, but because you think you're able to shake me in my beliefs and come with some clever question that will cause my faith in God to come fallin' down and leave me questioning everything I believe.
There IS enough evidence to show that God exists. It's just that it ain't enough for you. You have decided what would be enough, or what would satisfy you, and when your demands aren't being fulfilled you refuse to accept that God is real.
I don't know *why* God doesn't stop rapes from happening right now. I am sure there are many reasons, and perhaps in heaven I will understand it better. BUT, the fact that rapes occur, does not lead to me thinking "oh there can't be a God". It just doesn't follow. It might follow using your way of thinking, but it objectively or logically does not follow.
Let me ask you: Are you here to try to understand Christian beliefs, or are you here for some other reason? What exactly is your "struggle"? Is it that God doesn't fit your requirements, or is it that you don't get what we believe, or what is it?
I suspect it's something about wanting to ruin the faith of others. That is sad.

 

[Akureyri]

The Holy Spirit (one of the three persons in the Trinity, are you familiar with the Christian definition of the Trinity?) has awakened faith in my heart to believe the Bible to be the word of God, and to believe what is written in it. There are many verses and passages in the Bible telling us things about God. Too many for me to remember off by heart.
The reason I believe these things to be true is because the Holy Spirit has awakened faith my heart to believe these things to be true.
The answers to what hell is can be found in the Bible. No, it doesn't give a super-duper-detailed account, but it gives detail enough to get the idea what it's like. I think you already know that, and I am wondering if perhaps your asking me isn't really because you truly wonder, but because you think you're able to shake me in my beliefs and come with some clever question that will cause my faith in God to come fallin' down and leave me questioning everything I believe.
There IS enough evidence to show that God exists. It's just that it ain't enough for you. You have decided what would be enough, or what would satisfy you, and when your demands aren't being fulfilled you refuse to accept that God is real.
I don't know *why* God doesn't stop rapes from happening right now. I am sure there are many reasons, and perhaps in heaven I will understand it better. BUT, the fact that rapes occur, does not lead to me thinking "oh there can't be a God". It just doesn't follow. It might follow using your way of thinking, but it objectively or logically does not follow.
Let me ask you: Are you here to try to understand Christian beliefs, or are you here for some other reason? What exactly is your "struggle"? Is it that God doesn't fit your requirements, or is it that you don't get what we believe, or what is it?
I suspect it's something about wanting to ruin the faith of others. That is sad.

I'll read and respond to your post when you address the questions in bold above.

 

[cerette]

Your questions are responded to in my replies above..

 

[Akureyri]

Your questions are responded to in my replies above..

Please respond by placing your answers inline in response to what I've posted below. If your responses are above, then all you have to do is copy and paste them.

*
You didn't address some of my questions/points. Once again, look for the bold font below:

Akureyri,
I get the feeling that you aren't really seeking to understand Christian beliefs, as I have tried to explain Christian beliefs in responses to your questions. I get the feeling that whatever answer I would give you, it will not satisfy you unless it agrees with your views. However, Christian beliefs are what they are, we don't change them to suit peoples' personal opinions about what God should be like.

With respect to this particular discussion, I'm trying to get a sense of whether or not my request is legitimate. And if it is not, why isn't it legitimate?

I think it's fantastic that you are upset with the evil things that happen in the world. So am I. And even more so, so is God. He is more upset with it than you and I combined. And He will not let anyone get away with any of it.

Really? Then why doesn't God stop rapists from raping children? Why doesn't God alert the people of Joplin or Tuscaloosa that a massive tornado is about to rip their city to shreds?

But as a Christian I also know that there is more to reality than what I can see, hear and understand. I know that God WILL punish. I know that God is and will comfort those who are hurting.

Please enlighten me. How do you know these things about God?

Do I see the whole picture? Do I fully comprehend with my mind and thoughts what "fairness" really is? No I don't. But I do know that God is greater than I, greater than you, and greater than anyone else.

How do you know this about God?

God is God. He has no beginning and no end. He is what He is and He doesn't change to fit the description you or someone else may come up with, a "god good enough to be real".

Come on. You can do better than that. Precisely what real thing in this universe is it you are calling "God"?

I encourage you to study the Bible. Read to see what He has revealed about Himself.

The Bible is a book written by humans. Please explain how you came to believe that facts about God are revealed in the Bible. Does the Bible contain a FAQ about God? Is there a section in the Bible which clearly describes what God is?

He, God Himself, has died also for you.

Really? Earlier, you said God had no beginning and no end. Now you are saying that God ceased to exist, ceased to live, ceased to function, lost strength or became indifferent.

Did God cease to exist as you are indicating by saying he died? Or do you believe God is still living?

He took your sins upon Himself. Your sins and your unbelief deserve only hell and eternal punishment. (Same with my sins!) Jesus died for your sins.

Why should my lack of belief be punished by eternal punishment when all available evidence doesn't suggest a god exists?

How do you know that one's sins and unbelief deserve hell and eternal punishment?

What exactly is hell?

What exactly is eternal punishment?

Believe and you will have eternal life with Him in paradise.

What must one believe to have this eternal life in paradise?

What if all available evidence would make one a liar if they were to believe?

 

[cerette]

Ok I will try to type "inside" of your response, using italics so you can see where I've typed. I don't know if it will work to type inside of your text but I will try:

Please respond by placing your answers inline in response to what I've posted below. If your responses are above, then all you have to do is copy and paste them.

*
You didn't address some of my questions/points. Once again, look for the bold font below:


With respect to this particular discussion, I'm trying to get a sense of whether or not my request is legitimate. And if it is not, why isn't it legitimate?

Because God has nowhere promised or said that He will "play such games", rather He uses other ways to make Himself known: creation shows that it has a Creator; and His revealed Word (Bible) tells us that He is real. I understand that you wish you could use the method of thinking of a number and God will whisper the answer, but it just happens to be so that God doesn't show Himself that way. (If you wonder *why* He doesn't, my answer is I do not know why.)


Really? Then why doesn't God stop rapists from raping children? Why doesn't God alert the people of Joplin or Tuscaloosa that a massive tornado is about to rip their city to shreds?
I don't know God's thoughts, reasons etc to 100%, so I cannot give a 100% answer to *why* He doesn't stop these things. The Bible lets us know that there are several reasons why God allows suffering, some of the reasons being that it teaches us to rely on Him and another one being that sometimes God punishes people with bad things (see the account of Sodom and Gomorrah for example).


Please enlighten me. How do you know these things about God?
I've learned these things about God in His Word (Bible).

How do you know this about God?
See above (Bible)

Come on. You can do better than that. Precisely what real thing in this universe is it you are calling "God"?
See the Apostles' Creed; the Nicene Creed; the Athanasian Creed. You can google them and read and get a better idea of who God is.

The Bible is a book written by humans. Please explain how you came to believe that facts about God are revealed in the Bible. Does the Bible contain a FAQ about God? Is there a section in the Bible which clearly describes what God is?
The Holy Spirit opened my heart to believe what's written in the Word (the Bible). No it doesn't have a FAQ-section, but throughout the different books of the Bible there are tons of info about God, some passages and verses more clear than others.

Really? Earlier, you said God had no beginning and no end. Now you are saying that God ceased to exist, ceased to live, ceased to function, lost strength or became indifferent.

Did God cease to exist as you are indicating by saying he died? Or do you believe God is still living?
God is three persons in one being: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. God the Son (aka Jesus) came to earth as a man (He has two natures: divine and human) and He died on the cross for our sins. He didn't die spiritually though as some people claim. Anyway, the Father and the Holy Spirit never died, and Jesus didn't stay dead forever, he woke again. Yes God is still living.

Why should my lack of belief be punished by eternal punishment when all available evidence doesn't suggest a god exists?

How do you know that one's sins and unbelief deserve hell and eternal punishment?

What exactly is hell?

What exactly is eternal punishment?

The wages of sin is death and eternal punishment in hell. Unbelief is a sin and so will be punished. You are wrong in saying that all available evidence doesn't suggest a god exists. There is plenty of evidence showing God is real.
I know sins deserve hell and punishment because it is told in the Word of God (Bible). I don't know all details about hell but I know it's an eternal fire and that it's awful there. Eternal punishment means a punishment that begins when you die, or on Judgement Day in case you don't die before that day comes, and it will never end.


What must one believe to have this eternal life in paradise?

What if all available evidence would make one a liar if they were to believe?

One must believe that one's sins are forgiven for Jesus' sake. He died for those sins.
Please rephrase that next question because I don't understand what it is that you're asking..? (about being a liar)

 

[Akureyri]

Ok I will try to type "inside" of your response, using italics so you can see where I've typed. I don't know if it will work to type inside of your text but I will try:

-------------------------------------------------
With respect to this particular discussion, I'm trying to get a sense of whether or not my request is legitimate. And if it is not, why isn't it legitimate?

Because God has nowhere promised or said that He will "play such games", rather He uses other ways to make Himself known: creation shows that it has a Creator; and His revealed Word (Bible) tells us that He is real. I understand that you wish you could use the method of thinking of a number and God will whisper the answer, but it just happens to be so that God doesn't show Himself that way. (If you wonder *why* He doesn't, my answer is I do not know why.)

What we can derive from this is that God's desire to not play games is stronger than his desire for people to believe he exists. Why is this his priority? Perhaps he doesn't understand if he were to tell me what number I'm thinking of, I wouldn't see it as a game.
------------------------------------------------------
Really? Then why doesn't God stop rapists from raping children? Why doesn't God alert the people of Joplin or Tuscaloosa that a massive tornado is about to rip their city to shreds?

I don't know God's thoughts, reasons etc to 100%, so I cannot give a 100% answer to *why* He doesn't stop these things. The Bible lets us know that there are several reasons why God allows suffering, some of the reasons being that it teaches us to rely on Him and another one being that sometimes God punishes people with bad things (see the account of Sodom and Gomorrah for example).

Really. So this is some kind of sick, twisted and sadistic game God is playing - allowing all this suffering so we will learn to rely on him. If he really knows everything and can do anything, then why not implant every human with an innate desire and need to rely upon God?
----------------------------------------------------------------

Please enlighten me. How do you know these things about God?

I've learned these things about God in His Word (Bible).

How can you know that the Bible is accurate?

--------------------------------------------------------

Come on. You can do better than that. Precisely what real thing in this universe is it you are calling "God"?

See the Apostles' Creed; the Nicene Creed; the Athanasian Creed. You can google them and read and get a better idea of who God is.

Be more specific. What real thing in this universe is it you're calling "God"?

---------------------------------------------------

The Bible is a book written by humans. Please explain how you came to believe that facts about God are revealed in the Bible. Does the Bible contain a FAQ about God? Is there a section in the Bible which clearly describes what God is?

The Holy Spirit opened my heart to believe what's written in the Word (the Bible). No it doesn't have a FAQ-section, but throughout the different books of the Bible there are tons of info about God, some passages and verses more clear than others.

How exactly was your heart opened by the holy spirit? Only doctors open hearts (as in open heart surgery). Why are you referring to a heart surgeon as "the holy spirit"? Has your heart since been sealed so it functions properly? How long were you under anesthetics while your heart was open?

--------------------------------------------------------------
Really? Earlier, you said God had no beginning and no end. Now you are saying that God ceased to exist, ceased to live, ceased to function, lost strength or became indifferent.

Did God cease to exist as you are indicating by saying he died? Or do you believe God is still living?

God is three persons in one being: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. God the Son (aka Jesus) came to earth as a man (He has two natures: divine and human) and He died on the cross for our sins. He didn't die spiritually though as some people claim. Anyway, the Father and the Holy Spirit never died, and Jesus didn't stay dead forever, he woke again. Yes God is still living.

Then Jesus wasn't really sacrificing anything by "dying" on the cross.

-----------------------------------------------------------

You didn't answer these three:

Why should my lack of belief be punished by eternal punishment when all available evidence doesn't suggest a god exists?

How do you know that one's sins and unbelief deserve hell and eternal punishment?

What exactly is hell?

--------------------------------------------------

What exactly is eternal punishment?

The wages of sin is death and eternal punishment in hell. Unbelief is a sin and so will be punished. You are wrong in saying that all available evidence doesn't suggest a god exists. There is plenty of evidence showing God is real.
I know sins deserve hell and punishment because it is told in the Word of God (Bible). I don't know all details about hell but I know it's an eternal fire and that it's awful there. Eternal punishment means a punishment that begins when you die, or on Judgement Day in case you don't die before that day comes, and it will never end.

So an innocent recently born baby is full of sin, as he/she doesn't believe.

Just what available evidence says a god exists? How reliable is this evidence?

Why should those who are merely responding honestly to external stimuli be subject to eternal torture? Why would a god behave in such a sick, twisted and sadistic way? More importantly, why do you worship a god that would subject honest humans to such torture?

---------------------------------------------------------
What must one believe to have this eternal life in paradise?

What if all available evidence would make one a liar if they were to believe?
One must believe that one's sins are forgiven for Jesus' sake. He died for those sins.
Please rephrase that next question because I don't understand what it is that you're asking..? (about being a liar)

What I mean is if one pretends to believe something which they don't really believe.

 

[cerette]

-------------------------------------------------
With respect to this particular discussion, I'm trying to get a sense of whether or not my request is legitimate. And if it is not, why isn't it legitimate?

Because God has nowhere promised or said that He will "play such games", rather He uses other ways to make Himself known: creation shows that it has a Creator; and His revealed Word (Bible) tells us that He is real. I understand that you wish you could use the method of thinking of a number and God will whisper the answer, but it just happens to be so that God doesn't show Himself that way. (If you wonder *why* He doesn't, my answer is I do not know why.)

What we can derive from this is that God's desire to not play games is stronger than his desire for people to believe he exists. Why is this his priority? Perhaps he doesn't understand if he were to tell me what number I'm thinking of, I wouldn't see it as a game.

Maybe you come to that conclusion, but that is not the objective truth. You don't get to set the rules and decide "if A then B". Just because God doesn't play games it does not follow that His desire to not play games is stronger than his desire for people to believe in Him. It just doesn't follow. I know you think it does, but it doesn't.
------------------------------------------------------
Really? Then why doesn't God stop rapists from raping children? Why doesn't God alert the people of Joplin or Tuscaloosa that a massive tornado is about to rip their city to shreds?

I don't know God's thoughts, reasons etc to 100%, so I cannot give a 100% answer to *why* He doesn't stop these things. The Bible lets us know that there are several reasons why God allows suffering, some of the reasons being that it teaches us to rely on Him and another one being that sometimes God punishes people with bad things (see the account of Sodom and Gomorrah for example).

Really. So this is some kind of sick, twisted and sadistic game God is playing - allowing all this suffering so we will learn to rely on him. If he really knows everything and can do anything, then why not implant every human with an innate desire and need to rely upon God?

You may think it's a sick, twisted and sadistic game. But you are wrong. It is not a sick, twisted and sadistic game. The first humans (Adam and Eve) were created perfect, they did rely on God alone. Then came Satan and manipulated them into sinning, and thus the perfection was lost. We are still living with the same imperfection.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Please enlighten me. How do you know these things about God?

I've learned these things about God in His Word (Bible).

How can you know that the Bible is accurate?

--------------------------------------------------------

Come on. You can do better than that. Precisely what real thing in this universe is it you are calling "God"?

See the Apostles' Creed; the Nicene Creed; the Athanasian Creed. You can google them and read and get a better idea of who God is.

Be more specific. What real thing in this universe is it you're calling "God"?

---------------------------------------------------

The Bible is a book written by humans. Please explain how you came to believe that facts about God are revealed in the Bible. Does the Bible contain a FAQ about God? Is there a section in the Bible which clearly describes what God is?

The Holy Spirit opened my heart to believe what's written in the Word (the Bible). No it doesn't have a FAQ-section, but throughout the different books of the Bible there are tons of info about God, some passages and verses more clear than others.

How exactly was your heart opened by the holy spirit? Only doctors open hearts (as in open heart surgery). Why are you referring to a heart surgeon as "the holy spirit"? Has your heart since been sealed so it functions properly? How long were you under anesthetics while your heart was open?


I'm sorry I keep forgetting that you do not understand any figure of speech or such. I was clearly not talking about open heart surgery. I was talking about spiritual matters. You yourself have mentioned "love" in some posts and silly me assumed you were talking about an emotion (and actions) often spoken of in terms of being in/coming from the heart. Now I am curious to know what you mean by love since it probably involves the organ 'heart' but then again I probably wouldn't understand what you meant anyway so I won't ask.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Really? Earlier, you said God had no beginning and no end. Now you are saying that God ceased to exist, ceased to live, ceased to function, lost strength or became indifferent.

Did God cease to exist as you are indicating by saying he died? Or do you believe God is still living?

God is three persons in one being: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. God the Son (aka Jesus) came to earth as a man (He has two natures: divine and human) and He died on the cross for our sins. He didn't die spiritually though as some people claim. Anyway, the Father and the Holy Spirit never died, and Jesus didn't stay dead forever, he woke again. Yes God is still living.

Then Jesus wasn't really sacrificing anything by "dying" on the cross.


He sacrificed His life.
-----------------------------------------------------------

You didn't answer these three:

Why should my lack of belief be punished by eternal punishment when all available evidence doesn't suggest a god exists?

How do you know that one's sins and unbelief deserve hell and eternal punishment?

What exactly is hell?

Yes I did answer those, look somewhere in the post and it is there.

--------------------------------------------------

What exactly is eternal punishment?

The wages of sin is death and eternal punishment in hell. Unbelief is a sin and so will be punished. You are wrong in saying that all available evidence doesn't suggest a god exists. There is plenty of evidence showing God is real.
I know sins deserve hell and punishment because it is told in the Word of God (Bible). I don't know all details about hell but I know it's an eternal fire and that it's awful there. Eternal punishment means a punishment that begins when you die, or on Judgement Day in case you don't die before that day comes, and it will never end.

So an innocent recently born baby is full of sin, as he/she doesn't believe.

Just what available evidence says a god exists? How reliable is this evidence?

Why should those who are merely responding honestly to external stimuli be subject to eternal torture? Why would a god behave in such a sick, twisted and sadistic way? More importantly, why do you worship a god that would subject honest humans to such torture?
All humans are born with 'original sin' and need to 'be born again'. Those are Christian terms and in order to understand what I am talking about you should look them up. There is lost of evidence and I have already given you several examples, and it's all very reliable.
---------------------------------------------------------
What must one believe to have this eternal life in paradise?

What if all available evidence would make one a liar if they were to believe?
One must believe that one's sins are forgiven for Jesus' sake. He died for those sins.
Please rephrase that next question because I don't understand what it is that you're asking..? (about being a liar)

What I mean is if one pretends to believe something which they don't really believe.

Well duh, if "someone pretends to believe something which they don't really believe" then yeah it's a kind of a lie. Or deception. Or something like that.

Tell me, are you really struggling with these questions or is there some other motive?

 

[Akureyri]

...

With respect to this particular discussion, I'm trying to get a sense of whether or not my request is legitimate. And if it is not, why isn't it legitimate?

Because God has nowhere promised or said that He will "play such games", rather He uses other ways to make Himself known: creation shows that it has a Creator; and His revealed Word (Bible) tells us that He is real. I understand that you wish you could use the method of thinking of a number and God will whisper the answer, but it just happens to be so that God doesn't show Himself that way. (If you wonder *why* He doesn't, my answer is I do not know why.)

What we can derive from this is that God's desire to not play games is stronger than his desire for people to believe he exists. Why is this his priority? Perhaps he doesn't understand if he were to tell me what number I'm thinking of, I wouldn't see it as a game.

Maybe you come to that conclusion, but that is not the objective truth. You don't get to set the rules and decide "if A then B". Just because God doesn't play games it does not follow that His desire to not play games is stronger than his desire for people to believe in Him. It just doesn't follow. I know you think it does, but it doesn't.

Incorrect. If one is presented with a choice of A or B and chooses A, then there must be driving forces which made him choose A over B. Either A is more preferable to B or B is less preferable to A. If your God is real, then he has demonstrated through his inaction that "playing games" is less preferable than me not believing he exists.
------------------------------------------------------
Really? Then why doesn't God stop rapists from raping children? Why doesn't God alert the people of Joplin or Tuscaloosa that a massive tornado is about to rip their city to shreds?

I don't know God's thoughts, reasons etc to 100%, so I cannot give a 100% answer to *why* He doesn't stop these things. The Bible lets us know that there are several reasons why God allows suffering, some of the reasons being that it teaches us to rely on Him and another one being that sometimes God punishes people with bad things (see the account of Sodom and Gomorrah for example).

Really. So this is some kind of sick, twisted and sadistic game God is playing - allowing all this suffering so we will learn to rely on him. If he really knows everything and can do anything, then why not implant every human with an innate desire and need to rely upon God?

You may think it's a sick, twisted and sadistic game. But you are wrong. It is not a sick, twisted and sadistic game. The first humans (Adam and Eve) were created perfect, they did rely on God alone. Then came Satan and manipulated them into sinning, and thus the perfection was lost. We are still living with the same imperfection.

If your god is real, then it is a sick, twisted and sadistic game. Since your god can do anything and knows everything, then why didn't he stop Satan from manipulating people from sinning? Going back to #1, we can see that it was more important to God that he not stop Satan than it was to stop sinning.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Please enlighten me. How do you know these things about God?

I've learned these things about God in His Word (Bible).

How can you know that the Bible is accurate?

--------------------------------------------------------

Come on. You can do better than that. Precisely what real thing in this universe is it you are calling "God"?

See the Apostles' Creed; the Nicene Creed; the Athanasian Creed. You can google them and read and get a better idea of who God is.

Be more specific. What real thing in this universe is it you're calling "God"?

---------------------------------------------------

The Bible is a book written by humans. Please explain how you came to believe that facts about God are revealed in the Bible. Does the Bible contain a FAQ about God? Is there a section in the Bible which clearly describes what God is?

The Holy Spirit opened my heart to believe what's written in the Word (the Bible). No it doesn't have a FAQ-section, but throughout the different books of the Bible there are tons of info about God, some passages and verses more clear than others.

How exactly was your heart opened by the holy spirit? Only doctors open hearts (as in open heart surgery). Why are you referring to a heart surgeon as "the holy spirit"? Has your heart since been sealed so it functions properly? How long were you under anesthetics while your heart was open?

I'm sorry I keep forgetting that you do not understand any figure of speech or such. I was clearly not talking about open heart surgery. I was talking about spiritual matters. You yourself have mentioned "love" in some posts and silly me assumed you were talking about an emotion (and actions) often spoken of in terms of being in/coming from the heart. Now I am curious to know what you mean by love since it probably involves the organ 'heart' but then again I probably wouldn't understand what you meant anyway so I won't ask.

What exactly do you mean by "spiritual matters"? Provide an example and/or illustration please.

What exactly do you mean by "holy spirit"? Provide an illustration and/or definition.

--------------------------------------------------------------
Really? Earlier, you said God had no beginning and no end. Now you are saying that God ceased to exist, ceased to live, ceased to function, lost strength or became indifferent.

Did God cease to exist as you are indicating by saying he died? Or do you believe God is still living?

God is three persons in one being: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. God the Son (aka Jesus) came to earth as a man (He has two natures: divine and human) and He died on the cross for our sins. He didn't die spiritually though as some people claim. Anyway, the Father and the Holy Spirit never died, and Jesus didn't stay dead forever, he woke again. Yes God is still living.

Then Jesus wasn't really sacrificing anything by "dying" on the cross.

He sacrificed His life.

If Jesus was God and God continues to live, then it wasn't much of a sacrifice. If you could save mankind from something terribly evil by getting killed - while fully knowing you would come back to life - would you let yourself get killed?

-----------------------------------------------------------

You didn't answer these three:

Why should my lack of belief be punished by eternal punishment when all available evidence doesn't suggest a god exists?

How do you know that one's sins and unbelief deserve hell and eternal punishment?

What exactly is hell?

Yes I did answer those, look somewhere in the post and it is there.

What exactly is hell?

--------------------------------------------------

What exactly is eternal punishment?

The wages of sin is death and eternal punishment in hell. Unbelief is a sin and so will be punished. You are wrong in saying that all available evidence doesn't suggest a god exists. There is plenty of evidence showing God is real.
I know sins deserve hell and punishment because it is told in the Word of God (Bible). I don't know all details about hell but I know it's an eternal fire and that it's awful there. Eternal punishment means a punishment that begins when you die, or on Judgement Day in case you don't die before that day comes, and it will never end.

So an innocent recently born baby is full of sin, as he/she doesn't believe.

Just what available evidence says a god exists? How reliable is this evidence?

Why should those who are merely responding honestly to external stimuli be subject to eternal torture? Why would a god behave in such a sick, twisted and sadistic way? More importantly, why do you worship a god that would subject honest humans to such torture?

All humans are born with 'original sin' and need to 'be born again'. Those are Christian terms and in order to understand what I am talking about you should look them up. There is lost of evidence and I have already given you several examples, and it's all very reliable.

Oh, so we might actually be in 100% agreement about all these things - just that we use different languages/words. Is this correct? Perhaps you can come up with a question in a commonly understood figure of speech which when I answer, we can determine if you and I are in agreement?
---------------------------------------------------------
What must one believe to have this eternal life in paradise?

What if all available evidence would make one a liar if they were to believe?
One must believe that one's sins are forgiven for Jesus' sake. He died for those sins.
Please rephrase that next question because I don't understand what it is that you're asking..? (about being a liar)

What I mean is if one pretends to believe something which they don't really believe.
Well duh, if "someone pretends to believe something which they don't really believe" then yeah it's a kind of a lie. Or deception. Or something like that.

Tell me, are you really struggling with these questions or is there some other motive?

It is EXTREMELY difficult & frustrating trying to get honest, straightforward, meaningful & useful answers out of Christians. Just how do you and other Christians further your agenda by being evasive when confronted with the kinds of questions I ask?

 

[cerette]

I'm sad to hear that you don't think my answers are not honest, straightforward, meaningful & useful. I have answered most of your questions. I would guess that you didn't get any of the answers you had hoped to get. That is however not because my answers haven't been accurate, but because you already know what you want the answer to be and when you don't get it, you don't like it.
Christians don't have an agenda.
I pray that you will humble yourself before your Creator, the Lord God Almighty, and repent of your sins and unbelief (which is a sin) and find peace in Jesus Christ.

 

[Akureyri]

I'm sad to hear that you don't think my answers are not honest, straightforward, meaningful & useful. I have answered most of your questions. I would guess that you didn't get any of the answers you had hoped to get. That is however not because my answers haven't been accurate, but because you already know what you want the answer to be and when you don't get it, you don't like it.
Christians don't have an agenda.
I pray that you will humble yourself before your Creator, the Lord God Almighty, and repent of your sins and unbelief (which is a sin) and find peace in Jesus Christ.

When I ask you how you know the Bible is really the word of God, what do you think I want the answer to be?

 

[cerette]

When I ask you how you know the Bible is really the word of God, what do you think I want the answer to be?

I am guessing, but I hope I'm wrong, that you hope for an answer you'd consider "silly" or "stupid" so you have a reason to reply with some "smart" argument.

Or, maybe you hope for something like "all the evidence is so clearly pointing to it that there is no reason to have faith really, it's all just scientifically evident".

 

[Akureyri]

I am guessing, but I hope I'm wrong, that you hope for an answer you'd consider "silly" or "stupid" so you have a reason to reply with some "smart" argument.

Or, maybe you hope for something like "all the evidence is so clearly pointing to it that there is no reason to have faith really, it's all just scientifically evident".

Give me your most intellectually honest answer. Answer as if you're talking to someone who has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA of what Christianity is about.

Just how do you know the Bible is real?

What real thing in this world is it you're calling "God"?

 

[cerette]

Give me your most intellectually honest answer. Answer as if you're talking to someone who has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA of what Christianity is about.

Just how do you know the Bible is real?

What real thing in this world is it you're calling "God"?

As a believer, I know that the Bible is the true word of God because God Himself has awakened that belief in me.
THAT is the reason. It is not merely a matter of the intellect.

God is a unique being who is above all. We use the term 'trinity' to describe Him, as He is three persons in one being. He is: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit.

Let me ask you:
Since you are so sure that God is not real, why do you even bother to be here discussing with people who do believe? What is it about God that makes you interested in Him, even though you don't believe He is real?
(This is an honest question, I truly am curious to know why, and I am in no way trying to say that you needn't be here discussing with Christians.)

 

[Akureyri]

Give me your most intellectually honest answer. Answer as if you're talking to someone who has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA of what Christianity is about.

Just how do you know the Bible is real?

As a believer, I know that the Bible is the true word of God because God Himself has awakened that belief in me.
THAT is the reason. It is not merely a matter of the intellect.

How do you know the Bible is the true word of God?
How do you know that the belief was awakened in you by God and not through natural processes?

What real thing in this world is it you're calling "God"?

God is a unique being who is above all. We use the term 'trinity' to describe Him, as He is three persons in one being. He is: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit.

When you say "above all", what do you mean by that?
What real thing in the world is the "Father" part of God?
What real thing in the world is the "Holy Spirit" part of God?
I assume "The Son" refers to Jesus Christ. Since Jesus died some 2,000 years ago, is "The Son" currently living? If so, did Jesus actually die and when he rose from the dead, it marked the start of a new life? Or was he never really deceased? Or is "The Son" not currently a living being?

Let me ask you:
Since you are so sure that God is not real, why do you even bother to be here discussing with people who do believe?

I'm not absolutely certain that God isn't real. In this thread, I've provided a very good opportunity for God to show he is real. What purpose would this thread serve if I were absolutely 100% sure that God isn't real? What I'm curious about is if he is real - as many Christians say - then why am I not hearing back what number I'm thinking of?

What is it about God that makes you interested in Him, even though you don't believe He is real?
(This is an honest question, I truly am curious to know why, and I am in no way trying to say that you needn't be here discussing with Christians.)

I'm not interested in God. I'm interested in what Christians like yourself really believe and why they believe it. But if God is real, would I like to see a demonstration of his omniscience and omnipotence? Absolutely. However, I see nothing - which clearly demonstrates either that your god isn't real or your god is real, but doesn't care whether or not I believe he exists.