Is this a legitimate request?

[cerette]

If one believes the scriptures, then:

Lucifer was a perfect creation of God's (Ezekiel Ch.28 v.12-13)

Blameless, until iniquity was 'found' in him. (Ezekiel Ch.28 v.15)

Where did evil come from? Lucifer!

Who created Lucifer? God!

It seems to me to be more of a problem that God in fact created evil.

It doesn't say that God created evil. God created all the angels, including Lucifer. Later evil was found in Lucifer. It doesn't say or imply that God created 'evil'. You are wise to say that it only "seems" to be a problem to you. It isn't a problem really.

 

[Spaceman 3]

It doesn't say that God created evil. God created all the angels, including Lucifer. Later evil was found in Lucifer. It doesn't say or imply that God created 'evil'. You are wise to say that it only "seems" to be a problem to you. It isn't a problem really.

Thanks cerette...

God is the omniscient, omnipotent creator of all things... no?

If God created Lucifer, who later became corrupted by evil, then where did evil come from?

 

[Girder of Loins]

Allow me to jump in here with a thread I made awhile back.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7606059/

 

[Spaceman 3]

Allow me to jump in here with a thread I made awhile back.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7606059/

Noted & replied.

Yet another thread topic in a different dept. to keep my eye on

This really is a stumbling block for me though, & though I'd like to, I'm not sure I'll ever see past it to be honest.

 

[cerette]

Thanks cerette...

God is the omniscient, omnipotent creator of all things... no?

If God created Lucifer, who later became corrupted by evil, then where did evil come from?

That's one of the big questions we don't know the detailed answer to, other than we know from what's revealed about God that it (evil) sure didn't come from Him.
We simply have to accept that not all details are given to us, we don't know the full answers to all questions.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I looked at that website and it isn't clear where the examples are.

When you hear from God, do you hear or see something which would be evident to another person, should they be present? If so, would the other person hear/see precisely the same thing you did?

No when I hear from God it is in the mind, he speaks through the mind, with visions and thoughts. As an example he once asked me "How would I like to be stabbed with a knife", that same day I met a man who had been stabbed with a knife. So God predicted the future meeting. This was a verbal thought in my mind, but it was accompnied with a vision of God's presence decending.

That number is incorrect. Did you come up with that number yourself or did God provide it to you?

All I did was attempt to get the number from God. I realy if ever know if God has spoken to me, it is often after a thing comes to pass that I know he has. With the number all I did was focus on getting numbers. I just would see one number then the next, I make no claim that God told me. I was just making an effort to do as you had asked. Obviously it did not work.

The only part you need to do is communicate back and forth with your god. If your god is real, knows everything and wants me to believe he exists, then by definition, he will tell you the number I'm thinking of.

You would think this would be the case, but like I said I am a person who can hear from God from time to time, but every time this type of challenge has been given to me I have got the number wrong. So unfortunately I can't put God in that box. However you mention asking God, or communicating back and forth, I will give it a try, I will pray for longer asking him to do as you have asked, and see if he gives me the number the second time.

 

[Akureyri]

Now you are more of a "god" then God is! You are telling God what he must have created.
There is no way to test God. It does not exist. It was not created.

You can run tests to see if something does exist. The tests I've run indicate that no god exists.

 

[Akureyri]

First, I never said that everything has to be created. I said that nature didn't create itself and that nature has a creator, namely God.
God has created everything that is created. The only thing that is not created is God, because He is not created but is eternal with no beginning or end.

Why must nature have a creator?

How can you know that a god created everything that was created? I created a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet yesterday. This wasn't created by God, it was created by me. So you are incorrect about god creating everything that was created.

Why must God not have a creator?

 

[Akureyri]

You can look at lots of God's actions by reading about them in the Bible.

You completely missed my point. As actions speak louder than words, the observable actions of God (or lack of actions) tell me far more about the nature of your god than words written in ancient books.

I understand that you are horrified with the evil in the world, and so am I and all Christians, not to mention God. The "problem of evil" does however not prove that God doesn't exist.

That is true. However, if a god does exist, the problem of evil does show that such god is either impotent (can't do anything) or apathetic (doesn't care). Why worship such a worthless god?

I can see how the limited human understanding of things could come to that false conclusion though, but if we recognize our limited ability to understand everything then there is no problem between God's existence and peoples' evil doings.

God has showed you He is real. You are spiritually dead and blind to see it though.

What real thing in this universe are you calling "God"? When you answer that question, then I'll make a determination as to whether or not God has shown me he is real.

 

[Akureyri]

No when I hear from God it is in the mind, he speaks through the mind, with visions and thoughts. As an example he once asked me "How would I like to be stabbed with a knife", that same day I met a man who had been stabbed with a knife. So God predicted the future meeting. This was a verbal thought in my mind, but it was accompnied with a vision of God's presence decending.

How can you know those thoughts/visions are from a god and not simply thoughts or visions that naturally develop through the brain?

All I did was attempt to get the number from God. I realy if ever know if God has spoken to me, it is often after a thing comes to pass that I know he has. With the number all I did was focus on getting numbers. I just would see one number then the next, I make no claim that God told me. I was just making an effort to do as you had asked. Obviously it did not work.

Give it to me in simple terms: Did you come up with the number yourself or was it provided to you by your god?

You would think this would be the case, but like I said I am a person who can hear from God from time to time, but every time this type of challenge has been given to me I have got the number wrong.

Once again, when responding to this "challenge", do you come up with the number yourself or does God provide it to you?

So unfortunately I can't put God in that box. However you mention asking God, or communicating back and forth, I will give it a try, I will pray for longer asking him to do as you have asked, and see if he gives me the number the second time.

If he can do anything, then he can give me the number directly. Have God send me an email containing the number. Have him send it to my personal email address - the one which I use for most of my personal email.

 

[cerette]

Why must nature have a creator?

How can you know that a god created everything that was created? I created a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet yesterday. This wasn't created by God, it was created by me. So you are incorrect about god creating everything that was created.

Why must God not have a creator?

Hi,
You are confusing two senses of the word "create" here. When God is said to have "created" all things, this includes "bringing them into existence". When you say that you "created" an Excel spreadsheet, you obviously don't mean to say that you brought the program into existence from nothing -- rather, you mean that you arranged already existing things in a certain way. I take this point to be quite obvious, but perhaps it needs to be pointed out.

The to your question, "why must God not have a creator"? Well, the very concept of God in Christian theology is the concept of an eternal (and hence uncreated) being, so if there exists a God in the Christian sense, that God will per definition be uncreated. In this sense, God must indeed be uncreated, otherwise God wouldn't be God. (This is a conceptual remark.) To say that "God" can exist but be created, is to talk about something else than what Christians talk about when they talk about God. Whatever alternative thing one then is talking about, will likely be of little interest to Christians.

 

[cerette]

You completely missed my point. As actions speak louder than words, the observable actions of God (or lack of actions) tell me far more about the nature of your god than words written in ancient books.


That is true. However, if a god does exist, the problem of evil does show that such god is either impotent (can't do anything) or apathetic (doesn't care). Why worship such a worthless god?


What real thing in this universe are you calling "God"? When you answer that question, then I'll make a determination as to whether or not God has shown me he is real.

You say that "the problem of evil does show that such god is either impotent (can't do anything) or apathetic (doesn't care)". You're wrong on both points. Suppose God for some reason "can't" preclude evil from our world: it doesn't follow that he "can't do anything". (There are other things to do than prevent evil, are there not?) Second, suppose that God can prevent evil but doesn't: it doesn't follow that he "doesn't care". For how do you know that it is necessarily the case that "caring" requires preventing all evil? Maybe there are other ways of "caring"? Who are you to think that you have a full grasp of what qualifies as caring and what doesn't? You are being a bit presumptuous here.

 

[Akureyri]

Hi,
You are confusing two senses of the word "create" here. When God is said to have "created" all things, this includes "bringing them into existence". When you say that you "created" an Excel spreadsheet, you obviously don't mean to say that you brought the program into existence from nothing -- rather, you mean that you arranged already existing things in a certain way. I take this point to be quite obvious, but perhaps it needs to be pointed out.

The fallacious argument you're using is called Moving The Goalposts. You've custom tailored your definition of create to suit your needs. You did say God created everything. And I'm saying he didn't. And I provided a real live example of something which God clearly did NOT create. So do you want to revise your assertion that God created everything?

The to your question, "why must God not have a creator"? Well, the very concept of God in Christian theology is the concept of an eternal (and hence uncreated) being, so if there exists a God in the Christian sense, that God will per definition be uncreated.

Do you believe that everything is created?

In this sense, God must indeed be uncreated, otherwise God wouldn't be God. (This is a conceptual remark.) To say that "God" can exist but be created, is to talk about something else than what Christians talk about when they talk about God. Whatever alternative thing one then is talking about, will likely be of little interest to Christians.

If you believe that all things must have a creator, then if God wasn't created, then God wouldn't be classified as something. If God is not a something, then it is a nothing.

Do you believe that everything that exists is created?
Do you believe that God exists?

 

[Akureyri]

You say that "the problem of evil does show that such god is either impotent (can't do anything) or apathetic (doesn't care)". You're wrong on both points. Suppose God for some reason "can't" preclude evil from our world: it doesn't follow that he "can't do anything". (There are other things to do than prevent evil, are there not?)

Your statement is flawed. If God can't preclude rapes of children from our world, then it MUST follow that he can't do anything - as there is something he can't do. If he could do anything, then he would be able to preclude rapes of children from our world.

If God exists, he either:
1) Can prevent children from getting raped.
2) Can't prevent children from getting raped.

If #1 is true, then God must be choosing to not prevent children from getting raped.

Second, suppose that God can prevent evil but doesn't: it doesn't follow that he "doesn't care".

I don't quite know what you mean by "doesn't care". If God is capable of preventing evil but doesn't, it follows that he doesn't care enough to prevent evil.

For how do you know that it is necessarily the case that "caring" requires preventing all evil?

And how can we know what "all evil" means?

What we do know is if God is capable of preventing children from getting raped, but chooses to not prevent the rapes, then it follows that God doesn't care ENOUGH to prevent the rapes.

Maybe there are other ways of "caring"? Who are you to think that you have a full grasp of what qualifies as caring and what doesn't? You are being a bit presumptuous here.

I can only go by what I observe. Rapes of children are occurring. Christians maintain that their god exists and can do anything. Since an all-loving, all powerful god can't exist in the presence of mass calamity, then we know with 100% certainty that either your god - if he exists - either can't do anything or doesn't care ENOUGH to do anything.

 

[cerette]

The fallacious argument you're using is called Moving The Goalposts. You've custom tailored your definition of create to suit your needs. You did say God created everything. And I'm saying he didn't. And I provided a real live example of something which God clearly did NOT create. So do you want to revise your assertion that God created everything?


Do you believe that everything is created?


If you believe that all things must have a creator, then if God wasn't created, then God wouldn't be classified as something. If God is not a something, then it is a nothing.

Do you believe that everything that exists is created?
Do you believe that God exists?

1. You are wrong when you say I have "custom tailored" my "definition of create" to "suit my needs". I simply pointed out the simple FACT that when Christian theology says God "created" all things, it is using the word "created" in a sense which involves bringing things into being, which is clearly inconsistent with the sense you use the word created in when you say you have "created" a Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet. Look up the doctrine of creation in any Christian dogmatics textbook, and you can verify to yourself that this is so. You have no right to decide what "create" is to mean in the context of Christian theology; this is something Christian theology decides. (Just like e.g. Buddhists get to decide what they mean, Sikhs what they mean, etc etc.) So your talk about using "fallacious argument forms" is just ridiculous.

2. I believe that "God created all things", yes. But OF COURSE, in saying this it is assumed that God himself isn't one of the "things" that God has created. This should go without saying to anyone who has a feel for the English language. However, if someone wants to be picky and say that "if God created everything then he must have created himself, since he is something", then, in order to please these people, we might restate our same claim in these words: "God created everything, himself excepted".

Here is an example from the Bible where it is taken for granted that by "everything", "all things", etc., something is implicitly excepted:

"For 'He has put everything under his feet'. Now when it says that 'everything' has been put under him, IT IS CLEAR that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ." 1 Cor 15:13

(Not even in modern formal logic is it assumed "everything" is always used in an unrestricted way.)

 

[cerette]

Your statement is flawed. If God can't preclude rapes of children from our world, then it MUST follow that he can't do anything - as there is something he can't do. If he could do anything, then he would be able to preclude rapes of children from our world.

If God exists, he either:
1) Can prevent children from getting raped.
2) Can't prevent children from getting raped.

If #1 is true, then God must be choosing to not prevent children from getting raped.


I don't quite know what you mean by "doesn't care". If God is capable of preventing evil but doesn't, it follows that he doesn't care enough to prevent evil.


And how can we know what "all evil" means?

What we do know is if God is capable of preventing children from getting raped, but chooses to not prevent the rapes, then it follows that God doesn't care ENOUGH to prevent the rapes.


I can only go by what I observe. Rapes of children are occurring. Christians maintain that their god exists and can do anything. Since an all-loving, all powerful god can't exist in the presence of mass calamity, then we know with 100% certainty that either your god - if he exists - either can't do anything or doesn't care ENOUGH to do anything.

1. Your logic is confused. You say: "If God can't preclude rapes of children from our world, then it MUST follow that he can't do anything". Please think an extra round about what you just said, and you might see the fallacy. You are inferring a universal from a particular (i.e. "God can't do anything" from "God can't do x"). Look up any logic textbook, and you'll see that this sort of inference is logically invalid.

2. You have now shifted from "doesn't care" to "doesn't care enough to prevent". These two are not equivalent, either linguistically or logically, and this needs to be pointed out. Now, does it follow from "God doesn't prevent x", where x is some evil, that "God doesn't care enough to prevent x"? Not necessarily. Maybe God cares, but expresses his care in some alternative way, for example by effecting a perfect counterbalance of all injustices in this world in an afterlife, in line with the Christian doctrine of a Final Judgement. You might disagree with this policy, but who are you to say that if this is God's policy then he "doesn't care". He does care: that's why there is a Final Judgment when all wrongs will be corrected.

 

[Akureyri]

1. You are wrong when you say I have "custom tailored" my "definition of create" to "suit my needs". I simply pointed out the simple FACT that when Christian theology says God "created" all things, it is using the word "created" in a sense which involves bringing things into being, which is clearly inconsistent with the sense you use the word created in when you say you have "created" a Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet.

If I create a spreadsheet, did I not bring that spreadsheet into being?

Look up the doctrine of creation in any Christian dogmatics textbook, and you can verify to yourself that this is so. You have no right to decide what "create" is to mean in the context of Christian theology; this is something Christian theology decides. (Just like e.g. Buddhists get to decide what they mean, Sikhs what they mean, etc etc.) So your talk about using "fallacious argument forms" is just ridiculous.

So you get to pick and choose which things that were "brought into being" were created and which were not created. It sounds like a God of the Gaps argument. If you know how it came into being (e.g. the spreadsheet), then according to Christian theology it wasn't created. If you don't know how it came into being (e.g. the universe), then according to Christian theology, it was created. Now I clearly understand where you're coming from.

2. I believe that "God created all things", yes. But OF COURSE, in saying this it is assumed that God himself isn't one of the "things" that God has created.

If God created all things, but did not create himself, then God - by definition - is not a thing. How can something that is not a thing create things?

This should go without saying to anyone who has a feel for the English language. However, if someone wants to be picky and say that "if God created everything then he must have created himself, since he is something", then, in order to please these people, we might restate our same claim in these words: "God created everything, himself excepted".

Then who or what created God?

Here is an example from the Bible where it is taken for granted that by "everything", "all things", etc., something is implicitly excepted:

"For 'He has put everything under his feet'. Now when it says that 'everything' has been put under him, IT IS CLEAR that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ." 1 Cor 15:13

Once again, you're playing let's move the goalposts! You're changing the definition of "everything" as we move along.

 

[Akureyri]

1. Your logic is confused. You say: "If God can't preclude rapes of children from our world, then it MUST follow that he can't do anything". Please think an extra round about what you just said, and you might see the fallacy. You are inferring a universal from a particular (i.e. "God can't do anything" from "God can't do x"). Look up any logic textbook, and you'll see that this sort of inference is logically invalid.

Let's say God can do anything from #1 to #10. Precluding (or preventing) the rapes of children is #3. If God can't do #3, then he can't do anything from #1 to #10.

2. You have now shifted from "doesn't care" to "doesn't care enough to prevent". These two are not equivalent, either linguistically or logically, and this needs to be pointed out. Now, does it follow from "God doesn't prevent x", where x is some evil, that "God doesn't care enough to prevent x"? Not necessarily. Maybe God cares, but expresses his care in some alternative way, for example by effecting a perfect counterbalance of all injustices in this world in an afterlife, in line with the Christian doctrine of a Final Judgement. You might disagree with this policy, but who are you to say that if this is God's policy then he "doesn't care". He does care: that's why there is a Final Judgment when all wrongs will be corrected.

Let's say I am capable of preventing your child from being raped. And let's say I care about your child. Let's say the amount one cares can be ranked from 1 to 10, and the amount of care one must have to stop a rape if they are capable of stopping the rape would be 8. If the person or being is capable of preventing the rape, but doesn't, then we would know that person or being's level of care is less than 8 - or not enough to prevent the rape of the child.

 

[cerette]

Akureyri,
I get the feeling that you aren't really seeking to understand Christian beliefs, as I have tried to explain Christian beliefs in responses to your questions. I get the feeling that whatever answer I would give you, it will not satisfy you unless it agrees with your views. However, Christian beliefs are what they are, we don't change them to suit peoples' personal opinions about what God should be like.
I think it's fantastic that you are upset with the evil things that happen in the world. So am I. And even more so, so is God. He is more upset with it than you and I combined. And He will not let anyone get away with any of it. I understand from your posts that in your view the fair thing would be to "enter the scene immediately and stop all bad things from happening" and that you refuse to accept God's existence since that's not happening. As a human I can totally see where you're coming from, it would "make sense". But as a Christian I also know that there is more to reality than what I can see, hear and understand. I know that God WILL punish. I know that God is and will comfort those who are hurting. Do I see the whole picture? Do I fully comprehend with my mind and thoughts what "fairness" really is? No I don't. But I do know that God is greater than I, greater than you, and greater than anyone else. God is God. He has no beginning and no end. He is what He is and He doesn't change to fit the description you or someone else may come up with, a "god good enough to be real".

I encourage you to study the Bible. Read to see what He has revealed about Himself. He, God Himself, has died also for you. He took your sins upon Himself. Your sins and your unbelief deserve only hell and eternal punishment. (Same with my sins!) Jesus died for your sins. Believe and you will have eternal life with Him in paradise.

 

[cerette]

Let's say God can do anything from #1 to #10. Precluding (or preventing) the rapes of children is #3. If God can't do #3, then he can't do anything from #1 to #10.


Let's say I am capable of preventing your child from being raped. And let's say I care about your child. Let's say the amount one cares can be ranked from 1 to 10, and the amount of care one must have to stop a rape if they are capable of stopping the rape would be 8. If the person or being is capable of preventing the rape, but doesn't, then we would know that person or being's level of care is less than 8 - or not enough to prevent the rape of the child.

No, let's not say those things. We don't get to say how God should act or react. We don't get to set the rules that God needs to follow in order for us to be able to accept the fact that He exists.