Is there two set of rules one in church and one in the world?

[Avid]

Maybe I'm a bit dense. What reason did He give for it being a sin? I that He says its a sin. But not why.

You maybe need to check the typing, here, but I'll assume the simplest intent. You want to know WHY God says something he did not say expressly. That is why you are not successful in leading me down that path.

God does say this would have cost Abimelech his life, and the lives of many, most or ALL around him. That you need to deal with, and try not to make this something it is not.

... But here's the point. Had Abraham been completely honest, the king never would have been in that position. The fact is, he told a half-truth. And it appears that because the text doesn't have God rebuking Abraham, you think he was without sin.

Had Abraham been completely honest, the king very likely would have killed Abraham to be with Sarah. It was something that was done, there was no obvious reason to assume Abimelech was different than other, Abraham and Sarah had it worked out, it was not a lie, and God was able to teach a worldly king how He honored and used Abraham.

That king would have certainly told others, same as Nebuchadnezzar had done with Daniel and the others there in his realm. God does things in a way to use the righteous, the unrighteous, the submitted and the rebellious as suits Him. We do not see all the depth of what God does. Just as Job did not see all the depth of what God accomplished in the trials He allowed to come upon him.

It is unfathomable, the millions or billions of people who learned such important lessons from Job's tribulation. His faith was tried, and he retained his integrity. Job had not understood WHY, and God showed him that he did not understand. God never told Job he was not all God professed him to be in the beginning of the book!

 

[Hammster]

You maybe need to check the typing, here, but I'll assume the simplest intent. You want to know WHY God says something he did not say expressly. That is why you are not successful in leading me down that path.

God does say this would have cost Abimelech his life, and the lives of many, most or ALL around him. That you need to deal with, and try not to make this something it is not.


Had Abraham been completely honest, the king very likely would have killed Abraham to be with Sarah. It was something that was done, there was no obvious reason to assume Abimelech was different than other, Abraham and Sarah had it worked out, it was not a lie, and God was able to teach a worldly king how He honored and used Abraham.

That king would have certainly told others, same as Nebuchadnezzar had done with Daniel and the others there in his realm. God does things in a way to use the righteous, the unrighteous, the submitted and the rebellious as suits Him. We do not see all the depth of what God does. Just as Job did not see all the depth of what God accomplished in the trials He allowed to come upon him.

It is unfathomable, the millions or billions of people who learned such important lessons from Job's tribulation. His faith was tried, and he retained his integrity. Job had not understood WHY, and God showed him that he did not understand. God never told Job he was not all God professed him to be in the beginning of the book!

So you are comfortable reading into the text if it supports what you believe.

The only way the king would have killed Abraham is if God was a liar. So Abraham did not trust God.

 

[Avid]

So you are comfortable reading into the text if it supports what you believe.

I am not saying anything to put Abraham on a pedestal. I am not saying any of what you conjecture. I have taken this the way God said it

The shoe seems to be on the other foot. Understanding that God does things with people they do not understand is not what you have characterized it as.

The only way the king would have killed Abraham is if God was a liar. So Abraham did not trust God.

You will need to show how Abraham knew that, and where God tells him this is wrong for him to do. Even if God said that after the fact, it would be God showing Abraham it was wrong. I have not see that.

Opposite of what is sometimes said about this, God tells the king where he was wrong. God tells him what to do, and who to see about fixing the thing that was wrong. It is upon you in this pursuit to show God saying anything of that sort to Abraham. Even showing that God told Abimelech to tell Abraham he was wrong would be SOMETHING!

 

[Hammster]

I am not saying anything to put Abraham on a pedestal. I am not saying any of what you conjecture. I have taken this the way God said it

The shoe seems to be on the other foot. Understanding that God does things with people they do not understand is not what you have characterized it as.

.
You will need to show how Abraham knew that, and where God tells him this is wrong for him to do. Even if God said that after the fact, it would be God showing Abraham it was wrong. I have not see that.

Opposite of what is sometimes said about this, Go tells the king where he was wrong. God tells him what to do, and who to see about fixing the thing that was wrong. It is upon you in this pursuit to show God saying anything of that sort to Abraham. Even showing that God told Abimelech to tell Abraham he was wrong would be SOMETHING!

Just because Abraham didn't trust God doesn't mean that he wasn't wrong for not trusting God. And the evidence that He didn't trust God was that he lied about his relationship with Sarah. And the who Hagar thing.

 

[Bluelion]

Church should never forgive sin of people who do not want forgiveness.
It is a heresy if we do.
Otherwise the church would be on it's way to destruction, like it is now.

Concerning your examples.

When Jesus prayed he prayed to forgive them because they did not know what they were doing. Basically they thought they were killing a criminal and not the Lord.

Stephen asked not to hold their sin against them and later on Paul said he did not know what he was doing while persecuting the church

1Tim 1:13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

When someone is not aware he is sinning against you and there is no chance to apply Matt 18, just forgive him.

If someone is aware he sinned and does not want forgiveness and not asking for it, he should not be forgiven.

Even Christ did not forgive sinners who did not want to be forgiven.
Hell would be full of them.

Wow that is freeing. I have issues with my mother and brother who have abused me all my life, and I always thought I had to forgive them even though they never repented and did not ask for forgiveness. I had to finally stop speaking with both them. I always struggled to forgive them and did not understand why, now I know why i struggled, they did not want it and I do not have to give it in that case.

But God said we are forgiven as we forgive, however God always said repent, so God does not forgive that way either?

If this is true I can cast off chains, wow awesome.
blu

 

[Avid]

Just because Abraham didn't trust God doesn't mean that he wasn't wrong for not trusting God. And the evidence that He didn't trust God was that he lied about his relationship with Sarah. And the who Hagar thing.

Do you have scripture that tells you Abraham did not trust God? I'll be compiling my list of verses that say he did trust God, while you compile your list of verses that say he did not.

I'll be busy a while with mine, so you can post your list as soon as you compile it.

 

[Hammster]

Do you have scripture that tells you Abraham did not trust God? I'll be compiling my list of verses that say he did trust God, while you compile your list of verses that say he did not.

I'll be busy a while with mine, so you can post your list as soon as you compile it.

I have scriptures that demonstrate by his actions that he didn't trust God. To me, that's sufficient.

 

[Avid]

Abraham was our Father of Faith.
This was a man our respect should be extended to forever.

He was even given his own area in the afterlife - Abraham's Bosom, where people of faith went to for rest and protection in that dangerous environment.

If people speak against Abraham they have no idea what respect is.

Oh, I see.
Abraham did sin. This thing about Sarah being his wife, the half-truth, happened twice. Once the king did not sleep with her and the other time it looks like the king did.

Maybe you can elaborate. I am not sure if there is any of this that should not be taken at face value. Just clarify for me if you will. Thanks.

 

[Avid]

I have scriptures that demonstrate by his actions that he didn't trust God. To me, that's sufficient.

I am more interested in God's evaluation. It is upon you to show God saying Abraham did not trust God.

 

[Hammster]

I am more interested in God's evaluation. It is upon you to show God saying Abraham did not trust God.

Again, God recording his actions should be sufficient. But if you want to continue to believe that Abraham was without sin, go ahead. I'm certainly not going to change your mind.

 

[Bluelion]

Ham why are you attacking Abraham.

No one said or imply he was without sin. Did his faith sway yes, But he is the man God chose to show us to have faith in God. He was not perfect as Jesus, but he is to be honored. If Abraham is our father in Faith, would a person not be guilty of of breaking the commandment to honor your mother and father if that person called Abraham names? I am not saying we can not say he sinned or that he was human, but can a person hurl accusation at their father without breaking the commandment to Honor your mother and father? And If a person in fact false accused their father is that not a greater sin?

blu

 

[Hammster]

Ham why are you attacking Abraham.

No one said or imply he was without sin. Did his faith sway yes, But he is the man God chose to show us to have faith in God. He was not perfect as Jesus, but he is to be honored. If Abraham is our father in Faith, would a person not be guilty of of breaking the commandment to honor your mother and father if that person called Abraham names? I am not saying we can not say he sinned or that he was human, but can a person hurl accusation at their father without breaking the commandment to Honor your mother and father? And If a person in fact false accused their father is that not a greater sin?

blu

He isn't my father. And I didn't attack him.

 

[Avid]

Again, God recording his actions should be sufficient. But if you want to continue to believe that Abraham was without sin, go ahead. I'm certainly not going to change your mind.

Again, you are applying something I have not said, as if I said it.

Please address the post, and do not try to state what you think I believe.
If this is an area of confusion, check the site rules.

 

[Bluelion]

He isn't my father. And I didn't attack him.

wow, why is he not your father?

The descendants of Abraham are those who have faith in God, any one who has Jesus, and faith in God, Abraham is also their father.

 

[Avid]

... No one said or imply he was without sin...

This is a point I wanted to make by not saying it, implying it, agreeing in principle or any of that. To say these things REQUIRES that scripture saying that very thing be quoted. I have heard the SAME ACCUSATIONS against Jesus by Churchgoing people. It is part of the SAME ERROR used to excuse a person not having victory over sin.

Had people try to say Jesus sinned by not obeying His "parents" when he was 12 years old. Also, the accusation was hurled at Him by the world and some Church people that He sinned when He drove the Moneychangers out of the Temple. A Methodist Minister tried to tell me of the sexual orientation (according to his conjecture) of the Son of God... Not even going to explain that guy's reasoning. It would be an abomination to repeat it, and likely hurt many people to even say it.

Do you agree with these things people say about WHO SINNED in scripture? Do you believe that Jesus sinned because of what Church people, or some WORLDLY SONG WRITER, has conjectured? I do not believe what you are posting, and that is by that same standard you should not believe any of those people.

... He was not perfect as Jesus...

This is accurate, again, because the scriptures never say he was. Other scriptures indicate that type of status being applied to other people, but I had not read it applied to him anywhere in scripture. Yet again, the reason to believe or not believe something is because of what the scriptures say.

I have certain impressions of things, and some I have not said to any or many. That is because they are NOT expressly stated in any manner in the scriptures. I may have assurance from God that they are so, but would not try to make those opinions a test of faith.

 

[Avid]

wow, why is he not your father?

The descendants of Abraham are those who have faith in God, any one who has Jesus, and faith in God, Abraham is also their father.

This is clearly taught in scripture, expessly in the writings attributed to Paul the Apostle, a Hebrew of the Hebrews! (Phil.3:4-6)

Romans 9
6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians 3
6 ¶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Matthew 3
7 ¶ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
​

Important to believe the truth of the scriptures above any other authority.

 

[Hammster]

wow, why is he not your father?

The descendants of Abraham are those who have faith in God, any one who has Jesus, and faith in God, Abraham is also their father.

Pretty sure that's not right. But even if it is, I think you are stretching the whole Father thing.

 

[Hammster]

Again, you are applying something I have not said, as if I said it.

Please address the post, and do not try to state what you think I believe.
If this is an area of confusion, check the site rules.

Then perhaps you can clear this up. Was Abraham a sinner than Christ died for?

 

[Avid]

Then perhaps you can clear this up. Was Abraham a sinner than Christ died for?

... You want to know WHY God says something he did not say expressly. That is why you are not successful in leading me down that path...

... No one said or imply he was without sin...

This is a point I wanted to make by not saying it, implying it, agreeing in principle or any of that. To say these things REQUIRES that scripture saying that very thing be quoted...

I am more interested in God's evaluation...

.

 

[Hammster]

.

What sin did he commit, if any?