Is there two set of rules one in church and one in the world?

[Edial]

...

Being clean in Christ should be an ongoing thing, beyond when we would go to church. And loving Yahweh God and our neighbor is something in which we grow as we are to do, with life in Christ. And indeed loving God means loving others, as Yahweh God loves his creatures.

Yes, getting cleaned up in Christ should be an ongoing thing, even beyond Sunday.
However, we start FROM Sunday (church day) and should try conforming the rest of our week to the way we try behaving on Sundays.
Even if on Sundays we pretend to smile at someone ... at least it's a start. Are we hypocrites for pretending?
Of course we are.
That is why we should confess we are hypocrites and then God would fix us so our smiles gradually become genuine.

There should be repentance for sins, so there will be change. When that is there, how can there not be forgiveness? The Lord Jesus Christ called for that.

There should be forgiveness when there is repentance.
Yet there must not be forgiveness when there is not. Otherwise the church will get poisoned and then die.

The world accept all sins and forgives all sins without repentance.
Why? Because it does not care about sin.

The church cannot forgive sins that are not repentant.
Sin will permeate the church like yeast.

There was a good point from Mikedsjr that when believers join together in fellowship as church there should be breaking bread as communion then, it is not done so much, but I see how it should be. This of course should be with real fellowship in Christ there.

The way I see it should be done is this way.
Follow the Bible.
Communion every time we meet (Sundays) and fellowship hour after the service with coffee and bagels and whatever else AS a continuation of the Communion.

 

[Bluelion]

Of course. Once one turns one is OK.

Sadduccees were legalists and intellectuals.
If their mind does not grasp - it cannot be true.


Of course.
The verse about Corban in Mark someplace where he said the teachings of man destroy the teachings of God.
Any theological view, interpretation, commentary that contradicts the plain Bible is a teaching of men.



Yes, but politics have to do with yeast of Herod.
Regular politics we see on TV and church. Wanting to get top positions. Campaigning for yourself. Destroying the competition. Competition.
There is no such things as a 'friendly competition'.


... Jesus avoided politics like a plague.
His disciples however (including his brothers) wanted to make him a King. In John they even advised Jesus to show up in Jerusalem and do things that would make people impressed. Politics.

We often follow Christ's disciples and not Christ.

To be a good politician you need to be a good liar. People need to believe your lies. It is impossible to be a politician and tell the whole truth.



The answer is what Jesus was doing all His life - lead by example.

Everyone knows no one really understood what he was talking about anyway.

One of the church fathers said - preach the gospel ... use words if necessary.
2nd commandment.

And since it is hard to do, all we do is preach then growl the rest of the time.
Apostle Paul preached as well as was a great example and wrote some of the greatest verses on love.

Our church is really, really sick ... so we have little example to lead by.
How can I love my neighbor AS myself?

Start working on yourself.
Be aware of the yeasts. They are everywhere.
Confess you are a hypocrite.
And in few months one would see that love and compassion towards others would awaken, but never outside of the context of the word of God.

Interesting. I have no issue with admitting I am a sinner and far from perfect. It can be hard when people start saying your something your not though.

I agree with you about the church. T.V. is filled with false teachers and the sad thing is children of God suffer for what these people do in God's name.

It can be vary hard to love people as yourself, each day i start a new and try to love everyone that day, every day i set my mind to love everyone, it can be tough and some people are harder to love than others.

Thing is if everyone obeyed the two commandments Jesus would return.

I started working on my anger a year ago, praying a lot and it takes longer to get angry now, and that is all because of God. But I only get angry because i am hurt, but in the world men are suppose to get angry not cry. I am glad I am not apart of the world.

I think there is also alot of jealousy in the church and that gets in the way of love as Paul said.

Thank you Edial, Its nice to have fellowship. I learned somethings. i love to learn.

Peace and Love
blu

 

[Bluelion]

I cannot find where the generations show Sarah/ Sarai to be his sister.
Can you give me point of references?

Genesis: 11. 29. And Abram and Nahor took them wives: the name of Abram's wife was Sarai; and the name of Nahor's wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah, and the father of Iscah. 30. But Sarai was barren; she had no child. 31. And Terah took Abram his son, and Lot the son of Haran his son's son, and Sarai his daughter in law, his son Abram's wife; and they went forth with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go into the land of Canaan; and they came unto Haran, and dwelt there.

The term that refers to Sarah daughter in law of Terah who was Abraham's father.

But I agree if by Grace Abraham lied before the law was written,it is not justification for us to lie.

Gen 20 NLT

11 Abraham replied, “I thought, ‘This is a godless place. They will want my wife and will kill me to get her.’ 12 And she really is my sister, for we both have the same father, but different mothers. And I married her. 13 When God called me to leave my father’s home and to travel from place to place, I told her, ‘Do me a favor. Wherever we go, tell the people that I am your brother.’”

 

[Bluelion]

blue,

Acts 2:42

Acts 20:7


The underlying question i see missing is: Was the church instituted by God to gather in what we define as a "church"? If so, What purpose was the church instituted for? Did God institute the ministry of what we call Pastor? And if so, What did God institute them for?

My concern is as modern Protestantism has continued to evolve, it has forgotten all the legitimate reasoning of the traditions passed on. In doing so, church has become whatever anyone decides it is supposed to be and it looks exactly like the world politically and socially when it isn't supposed to be. The reason some churches don't stand out from the world is due to bringing the world into the church and removing what mattered. The reason some other churches stand out too much is because their so legalistic their hate is even self-evident to all but them. Then there is a many churches who are too apathetic to concern themselves and they are nearly like luke warm water.

It doesn't matter what day people come together. It doesn't matter what they location looks like brick and mortar, stone, a field or on a boat. When people come together in God's name, this is where communion, breaking of bread, should take place.

wait so are you now saying communion is not only for the building called church?

The true Church is The Children of God and not a building.

So you agree when a person wants to remember Christ and if they want to do in the perfect way, the perfect way was as God said communion, a person could take it where ever?

 

[Bluelion]

Yes, getting cleaned up in Christ should be an ongoing thing, even beyond Sunday.
However, we start FROM Sunday (church day) and should try conforming the rest of our week to the way we try behaving on Sundays.
Even if on Sundays we pretend to smile at someone ... at least it's a start. Are we hypocrites for pretending?
Of course we are.
That is why we should confess we are hypocrites and then God would fix us so our smiles gradually become genuine.


There should be forgiveness when there is repentance.
Yet there must not be forgiveness when there is not. Otherwise the church will get poisoned and then die.

The world accept all sins and forgives all sins without repentance.
Why? Because it does not care about sin.

The church cannot forgive sins that are not repentant.
Sin will permeate the church like yeast.


The way I see it should be done is this way.
Follow the Bible.
Communion every time we meet (Sundays) and fellowship hour after the service with coffee and bagels and whatever else AS a continuation of the Communion.

ahh but we are to forgive with out repentance of others. Remember Stephen who pray for forgiveness of those who were in the process of murdering him. Jesus prayed for those who crucified Him while on The Cross.

I understand a person can not be aloud to lead the church a stray, but we must forgive freely and we will be forgive freely. no?

blu

 

[Avid]

... God never rebukes him for it. It was no lie...

I cannot find where the generations show Sarah/ Sarai to be his sister.
Can you give me point of references?

There is more than one thing being said here. We may discuss it more deeply, but anyone who can, should to show where God rebuked Abraham as if he had displeased God, or as if God considered this a lie. I did not bring this up, but I'll press the issue till we properly address it.

There are verses of scripture for my point, but the problem is how this situation is used to say something that is not true about Abraham. That He was brought to an understanding about obeying God from the same fleshly origin as just about all the other people of this world. We should not, however, try to make up ideas and promote them when the Bible says otherwise.

It is something that will be a real eye-opener when we see the intent behind whoever started this idea, whether it was about 100 or 150 years ago, or at some other time. It truly has been a major piece of strategy for those promoting "The Carnal Christian Theory."

 

[Edial]

ahh but we are to forgive with out repentance of others. Remember Stephen who pray for forgiveness of those who were in the process of murdering him. Jesus prayed for those who crucified Him while on The Cross.

I understand a person can not be aloud to lead the church a stray, but we must forgive freely and we will be forgive freely. no?

blu

Church should never forgive sin of people who do not want forgiveness.
It is a heresy if we do.
Otherwise the church would be on it's way to destruction, like it is now.

Concerning your examples.

When Jesus prayed he prayed to forgive them because they did not know what they were doing. Basically they thought they were killing a criminal and not the Lord.

Stephen asked not to hold their sin against them and later on Paul said he did not know what he was doing while persecuting the church

1Tim 1:13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

When someone is not aware he is sinning against you and there is no chance to apply Matt 18, just forgive him.

If someone is aware he sinned and does not want forgiveness and not asking for it, he should not be forgiven.

Even Christ did not forgive sinners who did not want to be forgiven.
Hell would be full of them.

 

[Edial]

There is more than one thing being said here. We may discuss it more deeply, but anyone who can, should to show where God rebuked Abraham as if he had displeased God, or as if God considered this a lie. I did not bring this up, but I'll press the issue till we properly address it.

There are verses of scripture for my point, but the problem is how this situation is used to say something that is not true about Abraham. That He was brought to an understanding about obeying God from the same fleshly origin as just about all the other people of this world. We should not, however, try to make up ideas and promote them when the Bible says otherwise.

It is something that will be a real eye-opener when we see the intent behind whoever started this idea, whether it was about 100 or 150 years ago, or at some other time. It truly has been a major piece of strategy for those promoting "The Carnal Christian Theory."

Sometimes Wikipedia gives a better answer.
Sarah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sarah was the wife of Abraham, as well as being his half-sister, the daughter of his father Terah.[3] Sarah was ten years (or less) younger than her husband.[4]

Then check the Family Tree down the article and it would make it clearer ...

 

[Avid]

Sometimes Wikipedia gives a better answer.
Sarah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sarah was the wife of Abraham, as well as being his half-sister, the daughter of his father Terah.[3] Sarah was ten years (or less) younger than her husband.[4]

Then check the Family Tree down the article and it would make it clearer ...

The info is correct, and described by Abraham himself that way in the scriptures.

Genesis 20
10 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing?
11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.
12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
13 And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother.
​

The problem comes as people misuse scripture, and think this was a problem between God and Abraham. There is a place that God rebukes a worldly king, and they use it to say that was a rebuke of Abraham.

Genesis 20
7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.
​

Had been there where the pastor, beginning a less formal meeting, asked for our thoughts just after announcing the text for his sermon. When I knew what he was going to preach about, I made the statements I have made to all you. He was confused, and a little off balance through the sermon, where he tried to make a point that was DIRECTLY the OPPOSITE of what the scriptures he taught had said.

We should be careful, and do some study to correct ourselves when the scriptures say the exact opposite of what we try to make them mean. In the subsequent 20 years since, I must trust the LORD to have this man deal with that discrepancy.

 

[Edial]

The info is correct, and described by Abraham himself that way in the scriptures.

Genesis 20
10 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing?
11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.
12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
13 And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother.
​

The problem comes as people misuse scripture, and think this was a problem between God and Abraham. There is a place that God rebukes a worldly king, and they use it to say that was a rebuke of Abraham.

Genesis 20
7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.
​

Had been there where the pastor, beginning a less formal meeting, asked for our thoughts just after announcing the text for his sermon. When I knew what he was going to preach about, I made the statements I have made to all you. He was confused, and a little off balance through the sermon, where he tried to make a point that was DIRECTLY the OPPOSITE of what the scriptures he taught had said.

We should be careful, and do some study to correct ourselves when the scriptures say the exact opposite of what we try to make them mean. In the subsequent 20 years since, I must trust the LORD to have this man deal with that discrepancy.

Abraham was our Father of Faith.
This was a man our respect should be extended to forever.

He was even given his own area in the afterlife - Abraham's Bosom, where people of faith went to for rest and protection in that dangerous environment.

If people speak against Abraham they have no idea what respect is.

 

[Avid]

Church should never forgive sin of people who do not want forgiveness.
It is a heresy if we do.
Otherwise the church would be on it's way to destruction, like it is now...

A grand truth of the scriptures. It is ignored, misused, and as you point out, the cause of the Church being on a downward spiral. People of the world hear these things, in Church, from Church people, and stand up on TV, and forgive the man who killed their daughter, while he is at large, and doing his best to avoid facing the law for what he did.

People will argue they would be damaged carrying around anger and hate, so they summarily forgive with no hint of remorse or repentance from the person who perpetrated the offense.

We can decide NOT TO HATE. We can decide NOT TO BE ANGRY or let anger stew. That is not forgiveness. That is keeping a pure heart before God, and for our own spiritual good. That is not to be confused with forgiveness, as others may receive an apology or a gesture of repentance and remorse, while harboring hatred and anger. If there is no remedy possible in that situation, the person is considered implacable (can't be placated.)

Thanks for pointing out the truth of the scriptures.

 

[Hammster]

The info is correct, and described by Abraham himself that way in the scriptures.

Genesis 20
10 And Abimelech said unto Abraham, What sawest thou, that thou hast done this thing?
11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.
12 And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife.
13 And it came to pass, when God caused me to wander from my father's house, that I said unto her, This is thy kindness which thou shalt shew unto me; at every place whither we shall come, say of me, He is my brother.
​

The problem comes as people misuse scripture, and think this was a problem between God and Abraham. There is a place that God rebukes a worldly king, and they use it to say that was a rebuke of Abraham.

Genesis 20
7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.
​

Had been there where the pastor, beginning a less formal meeting, asked for our thoughts just after announcing the text for his sermon. When I knew what he was going to preach about, I made the statements I have made to all you. He was confused, and a little off balance through the sermon, where he tried to make a point that was DIRECTLY the OPPOSITE of what the scriptures he taught had said.

We should be careful, and do some study to correct ourselves when the scriptures say the exact opposite of what we try to make them mean. In the subsequent 20 years since, I must trust the LORD to have this man deal with that discrepancy.

Why did God rebuke the king?

 

[Avid]

Why did God rebuke the king?

Genesis 20
3 ¶ But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.
​

This we have from the scriptures.

 

[Hammster]

Genesis 20
3 ¶ But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
4 But Abimelech had not come near her: and he said, Lord, wilt thou slay also a righteous nation?
5 Said he not unto me, She is my sister? and she, even she herself said, He is my brother: in the integrity of my heart and innocency of my hands have I done this.
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.
​

This we have from the scriptures.

So why would it have been a sin if he took Sarah?

 

[Avid]

So why would it have been a sin if he took Sarah?

Genesis 20
3 ¶ But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
​

 

[Hammster]

Genesis 20
3 ¶ But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night, and said to him, Behold, thou art but a dead man, for the woman which thou hast taken; for she is a man's wife.
​

I saw that. Why would it be a sin?

 

[Avid]

I saw that. Why would it be a sin?

That is the reason God Gave for his rebuke of Abimelech. That is what is important. It is also, important not to make this something other than God said it was. If you have a point, you may make it.

 

[Hammster]

That is the reason God Gave for his rebuke of Abimelech. That is what is important. It is also, important not to make this something other than God said it was. If you have a point, you may make it.

Maybe I'm a bit dense. What reason did He give for it being a sin? I that He says its a sin. But not why.

But here's the point. Had Abraham been completely honest, the king never would have been in that position. The fact is, he told a half-truth. And it appears that because the text doesn't have God rebuking Abraham, you think he was without sin.

 

[Edial]

Maybe I'm a bit dense. What reason did He give for it being a sin? I that He says its a sin. But not why.

But here's the point. Had Abraham been completely honest, the king never would have been in that position. The fact is, he told a half-truth. And it appears that because the text doesn't have God rebuking Abraham, you think he was without sin.

Oh, I see.
Abraham did sin. This thing about Sarah being his wife, the half-truth, happened twice. Once the king did not sleep with her and the other time it looks like the king did.

 

[Hammster]

Oh, I see.
Abraham did sin. This thing about Sarah being his wife, the half-truth, happened twice. Once the king did not sleep with her and the other time it looks like the king did.

My whole point being that Abraham, while spoken of as a friend of God, was not some super believer who must be put on a pedestal. He was a sinner, and where he failed we should be free to criticize. It's wrong to say he didn't participate in the things of the world, as the OP has said.