Is there salvation without Mary?

[Placemat]

No, Truth does not depend on the opinions of men. If he is wise, his thoughts and realizations conform to Truth, Truth does not conform or depend upon him in any way.

May I ask what Truth do you conform too from those 2 versions of that verse from Gen.? Is it the Truth regarding Mary or the Truth of regarding Jesus when it comes to the crushing of the serpent's head?

 

[Placemat]

If you do truly love those verses, you are blessed indeed - especially in these dark times when "truth" has been counterfeited and misrepresented and in fact hated and discarded in favor of any lie that can advance the ambitions and self-love of men. As the Lord said concerning the last days,

2Thess 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming.
2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
​

And if I may comment further on one point: If you can see that Jesus promised this Holy Spirit, and this leading into all the truth, not to isolated individuals but to His actual disciples who are gathered into a communion, a divine fellowship, together in Christ - obedient to His New Commandment of "one-another love as He has loved us." This holy fellowship has been led into His One Truth from the beginning: it subsists in what has been named the Catholic Church, entrusted with the fullness of revealed truth.

I don't believe I've ever referred to "isolated individuals" being led into all truth by the Holy Spirit...I have stated 'all true and faithful believers/Christians'....no matter what denomination or church they belong too. He knows who His sheep are.

 

[fide]

May I ask what Truth do you conform too from those 2 versions of that verse from Gen.? Is it the Truth regarding Mary or the Truth of regarding Jesus when it comes to the crushing of the serpent's head?

Either translation is acceptable because both are true. Mary is ever in Jesus, and Jesus came to us through Mary. Much more could be said about this, but the "dispute" about the translations misses the point.

 

[fide]

I don't believe I've ever referred to "isolated individuals" being led into all truth by the Holy Spirit...I have stated 'all true and faithful believers/Christians'....no matter what denomination or church they belong too. He knows who His sheep are.

your understanding of church, perhaps, is not what I have experienced from many protestants - that "church" is not all that important. Christianity is all about salvation - about getting saved - and salvation is all about the "me and Jesus" relationship, my individual faith in Him. All else is minor, that is the one major.

For Catholics, it is much different. The Church is the Body of Christ, now and to be eternally inseparable from Jesus the Head of the Body, and the one-another holy love is Commanded to be the shared LIFE of the Body. Thus the Church is an essential, not minor, not "go to the [non-Catholic] church of your choice" because most Christian churches are pretty much the same in the major essentials, and the minors don't really matter anyway except for personal preference. The Church is an essential for Catholics: it must be the one and only Catholic Church, to have the crucial fullness of divine truth, divine revelation.

 

[Placemat]

Either translation is acceptable because both are true. Mary is ever in Jesus, and Jesus came to us through Mary. Much more could be said about this, but the "dispute" about the translations misses the point.

If that is the case then anything written in scripture after Gen 3 pertaining to His role, can simply be interchanged with Mary's name and it's acceptable.

 

[Placemat]

your understanding of church, perhaps, is not what I have experienced from many protestants - that "church" is not all that important. Christianity is all about salvation - about getting saved - and salvation is all about the "me and Jesus" relationship, my individual faith in Him. All else is minor, that is the one major.

For Catholics, it is much different. The Church is the Body of Christ, now and to be eternally inseparable from Jesus the Head of the Body, and the one-another holy love is Commanded to be the shared LIFE of the Body. Thus the Church is an essential, not minor, not "go to the [non-Catholic] church of your choice" because most Christian churches are pretty much the same in the major essentials, and the minors don't really matter anyway except for personal preference. The Church is an essential for Catholics: it must be the one and only Catholic Church, to have the crucial fullness of divine truth, divine revelation.

Yes, I think we've covered this already...however I will add that it is not outside of His scope to act in whatever way He chooses when it comes to individuals and their individual circumstances if they are not members of any denomination or particular church at any given time. He cannot be bound by what humans determine He should do or where He should do it.

 

[ripple the car]

[URL="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium"]Sub tuum praesidium - Wikipedia
[/URL]
Hymns to Mary - Wikipedia

 

[fide]

If that is the case then anything written in scripture after Gen 3 pertaining to His role, can simply be interchanged with Mary's name and it's acceptable.

The place that Mary holds in the work of salvation, by the will of God, is obscure or it is simple, clear, and beautiful, depending on the interior light given to the seeker. We must pray for that light - the light of God, of holy wisdom, to see as He sees. We must be careful. I hope you are not trying to reduce the one whom God has highly exalted, whose soul magnifies the Lord. As you wrote, "it is not outside of His scope to act in whatever way He chooses when it comes to individuals and their individual circumstances." Mary is unique.

 

[MariaChristi]

I'm new here, and this is the first reply I've written. Fide has said the Truth in three words: "Mary is unique". God created her without any stain of sin by a singular privilege, for she was destined to be the Mother of His Incarnate Son. As a Catholic baptized as an infant, I grew to know Jesus more and more as I learned more about Mary. I hope many on this Forum will continue to ask God to reveal her more to anyone who does not know how "unique" and beautiful Mary is!

 

[fide]

I'm new here, and this is the first reply I've written. Fide has said the Truth in three words: "Mary is unique". God created her without any stain of sin by a singular privilege, for she was destined to be the Mother of His Incarnate Son. As a Catholic baptized as an infant, I grew to know Jesus more and more as I learned more about Mary. I hope many on this Forum will continue to ask God to reveal her more to anyone who does not know how "unique" and beautiful Mary is!

Welcome, MariaChristi. One of the saddest realities of the Catholic-Protestant divide is the great chasm in the matter of Mary. It must grieve our Lord greatly, that His Blessed Mother - instead of being His Mother (!) and Mother to all believers - is seen so casually, "just another disciple" if not less. The evil one must be laughing, if he knows how.

 

[MariaChristi]

Welcome, MariaChristi. One of the saddest realities of the Catholic-Protestant divide is the great chasm in the matter of Mary. It must grieve our Lord greatly, that His Blessed Mother - instead of being His Mother (!) and Mother to all believers - is seen so casually, "just another disciple" if not less. The evil one must be laughing, if he knows how.

Thanks, fide, for your welcome, to me on my first day here! Yes, it is sad to me also when persons can take Mary "casually" rather than "seeing her" by the supernatural gift of Faith given to us in Baptism and by the Light of the Holy Spirit given to us in the promise of Jesus that the Holy Spirit would bring us into the fullness of Truth. Thank you for your defense of our Mother Mary.

 

[Placemat]

The place that Mary holds in the work of salvation, by the will of God, is obscure or it is simple, clear, and beautiful, depending on the interior light given to the seeker. We must pray for that light - the light of God, of holy wisdom, to see as He sees. We must be careful.

The Holy Spirit, being the light within, will always illuminate and magnify the Lord, centring our focus on Him, where we find peace and assurance and confidence in Who He is and what He does.

I hope you are not trying to reduce the one whom God has highly exalted, whose soul magnifies the Lord. As you wrote, "it is not outside of His scope to act in whatever way He chooses when it comes to individuals and their individual circumstances."

I have never attempted to do such a thing, just as I would never attempt to exalt her beyond what her role was. As you stated...."We must be careful".

Mary is unique.

Indeed she was, having been chosen by God to birth His Son - Who is now seated at the right hand of God and is the One the Holy Spirit illuminates and magnifies in every true and faithful believer; enabling us to grow in our understanding and knowledge of Him and His will, while having peace and assurance and confidence in Him - just as the Apostles taught and preached and wrote about.

 

[fide]

The Holy Spirit, being the light within, will always illuminate and magnify the Lord, centring our focus on Him, where we find peace and assurance and confidence in Who He is and what He does.



I have never attempted to do such a thing, just as I would never attempt to exalt her beyond what her role was. As you stated...."We must be careful".



Indeed she was, having been chosen by God to birth His Son - Who is now seated at the right hand of God and is the One the Holy Spirit illuminates and magnifies in every true and faithful believer; enabling us to grow in our understanding and knowledge of Him and His will, while having peace and assurance and confidence in Him - just as the Apostles taught and preached and wrote about.

Are you absolutely certain that you completely understand, perfectly and infallibly, WHAT Mary's role was and is? Are you positive that you have nothing more to learn in this matter?

 

[Placemat]

Are you absolutely certain that you completely understand, perfectly and infallibly, WHAT Mary's role was and is? Are you positive that you have nothing more to learn in this matter?

As I've mentioned in my posts, my focus has never been on Mary but on HIM and HE has proven to be totally sufficient in everyway.

 

[MariaChristi]

As I've mentioned in my posts, my focus has never been on Mary but on HIM and HE has proven to be totally sufficient in everyway.

Dear Placemat,

Since I'm new I've only read your posts on this thread, but I certainly believe Jesus is totally sufficient in every way -- for He is God, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. Nevertheless, God loved us so much He gave Jesus into the womb of Mary, by the Power of His Holy Spirit to become human as we are that He might Live and Die and Rise from the dead so we might regain what Adam and Eve Lost. Mary is more than simply another human person because God has gifted her with such a tremendous "Fullness of Grace" that Mary is more than we can really understand.

Catholics have been given in varying degrees an appreciation for Mary that many do not understand. I say "varying degrees" because some have had more opportunities to read and study and listen to God speaking through the Scriptures than others. I hope you will consider in your love for Jesus more pondering of Jesus' words from the Cross: "Behold your Mother" as well as John's willingness to take Mary into "his own" (The Greek in which John wrote his Gospel do not contain the words "into his home", but only into "his own") Another translation I like is "he took her into his life". Jesus has an infinite Love for His Mother, and I believe we are called to love as He loves. The Incarnation remains God's Mysterious and Beautiful Plan. God chose Mary to be an essential part of His Plan. Mary is truly Necessary for us to know Her Son better -- for no other human person knew Him as well as Mary did and does now.

 

[Placemat]

Dear Placemat,

Since I'm new I've only read your posts on this thread, but I certainly believe Jesus is totally sufficient in every way -- for He is God, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity-

Hello MariaChristi - I
am new to this forum also, in fact my first post was in this thread in response to a prayer that was offered to Mary by 'St. Ephraem' - (prayer in Post #339).

Nevertheless, God loved us so much He gave Jesus into the womb of Mary, by the Power of His Holy Spirit to become human as we are that He might Live and Die and Rise from the dead so we might regain what Adam and Eve Lost.

While I agree with most of what you've posted and since my focus is on Him and not Mary, I would have 'bolded' it a bit differently. (see 'green') Mary is more than simply another human person because God has gifted her with such a tremendous "Fullness of Grace" that Mary is more than we can really understand. Jesus is more than simply another human person - the very essence of Grace - and when our focus is on Him, our understanding can not but grow.

Catholics have been given in varying degrees an appreciation for Mary that many do not understand. I say "varying degrees" because some have had more opportunities to read and study and listen to God speaking through the Scriptures than others. I hope you will consider in your love for Jesus more pondering of Jesus' words from the Cross: "Behold your Mother" as well as John's willingness to take Mary into "his own" (The Greek in which John wrote his Gospel do not contain the words "into his home", but only into "his own") Another translation I like is "he took her into his life".

Yes, different translations can play an important role in the formation of our beliefs. I am not sure if it was in this thread, but Gen.3:5 is an example of how this is done, where a Catholic bible has "she"(Mary) crushes serpent's head, instead of "he" (Jesus) and can lead the way in attempting to support the developed doctrines along the way regarding Mary, which ultimately takes the focus off of Jesus....as evidenced in St.Ephraem's prayer and many others, and in your own 'bolding'.

Jesus has an infinite Love for His Mother, and I believe we are called to love as He loves.

And I am so grateful and I love her for her faith, obedience and for fulfilling her role as His mother, she was truly blessed.

Mary is truly Necessary for us to know Her Son better -- for no other human person knew Him as well as Mary did and does now.

As I've stated, I've always focused on Him and He has been totally sufficient in every way during my walk with Him and have not found what you've posted to be true in my case and there are many other non-Catholic Christians who would attest to the same thing.

 

[MariaChristi]

Hello MariaChristi - I
am new to this forum also, in fact my first post was in this thread in response to a prayer that was offered to Mary by 'St. Ephraem' - (prayer in Post #339).


While I agree with most of what you've posted and since my focus is on Him and not Mary, I would have 'bolded' it a bit differently. (see 'green') Mary is more than simply another human person because God has gifted her with such a tremendous "Fullness of Grace" that Mary is more than we can really understand. Jesus is more than simply another human person - the very essence of Grace - and when our focus is on Him, our understanding can not but grow.

Yes, different translations can play an important role in the formation of our beliefs. I am not sure if it was in this thread, but Gen.3:5 is an example of how this is done, where a Catholic bible has "she"(Mary) crushes serpent's head, instead of "he" (Jesus) and can lead the way in attempting to support the developed doctrines along the way regarding Mary, which ultimately takes the focus off of Jesus....as evidenced in St.Ephraem's prayer and many others, and in your own 'bolding'.


And I am so grateful and I love her for her faith, obedience and for fulfilling her role as His mother, she was truly blessed.



As I've stated, I've always focused on Him and He has been totally sufficient in every way during my walk with Him and have not found what you've posted to be true in my case and there are many other non-Catholic Christians who would attest to the same thing.

[/QUOTE]

Hello MariaChristi - I
am new to this forum also, in fact my first post was in this thread in response to a prayer that was offered to Mary by 'St. Ephraem' - (prayer in Post #339).


While I agree with most of what you've posted and since my focus is on Him and not Mary, I would have 'bolded' it a bit differently. (see 'green') Mary is more than simply another human person because God has gifted her with such a tremendous "Fullness of Grace" that Mary is more than we can really understand. Jesus is more than simply another human person - the very essence of Grace - and when our focus is on Him, our understanding can not but grow.

Yes, different translations can play an important role in the formation of our beliefs. I am not sure if it was in this thread, but Gen.3:5 is an example of how this is done, where a Catholic bible has "she"(Mary) crushes serpent's head, instead of "he" (Jesus) and can lead the way in attempting to support the developed doctrines along the way regarding Mary, which ultimately takes the focus off of Jesus....as evidenced in St.Ephraem's prayer and many others, and in your own 'bolding'.


And I am so grateful and I love her for her faith, obedience and for fulfilling her role as His mother, she was truly blessed.



As I've stated, I've always focused on Him and He has been totally sufficient in every way during my walk with Him and have not found what you've posted to be true in my case and there are many other non-Catholic Christians who would attest to the same thing.

[/QUOTE]

 

[MariaChristi]

Dear Placemat,

Thanks for your reply. Again, I agree Jesus as God is "totally sufficient" as God Incarnate conceived and born of Mary, and in His Love, He gave Mary to us from the Cross to help us. Mary is God's Provision for us - a Gift of God to us: to see in her how He can do wonders for a simple human person Who gives God All -- as Mary did. How can we reject such a Gift? Can you accept this? If not, perhaps there is no reason to go further. I hope you can ponder and hear those words from Jesus: "Behold your Mother".

 

[Placemat]

Dear Placemat,

Thanks for your reply. Again, I agree Jesus as God is "totally sufficient" as God Incarnate conceived and born of Mary, and in His Love, He gave Mary to us from the Cross to help us. Mary is God's Provision for us - a Gift of God to us: to see in her how He can do wonders for a simple human person Who gives God All -- as Mary did. How can we reject such a Gift? Can you accept this? If not, perhaps there is no reason to go further. I hope you can ponder and hear those words from Jesus: "Behold your Mother".

Quite content and thriving in His care thank you!
And I hope you can ponder and hear these words from Jesus: Matthew 11:

25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

 

[MariaChristi]

Quite content and thriving in His care thank you!
And I hope you can ponder and hear these words from Jesus: Matthew 11:

25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”