Is there salvation without Mary?

[MariaChristi]

Dear Placemat,

Yes, I have pondered those words from Jesus, and treasure them in my heart. Jesus certainly revealed much to His Little ones and continues to do so. Mary His Mother was and remains the foremost of those little ones for she is the most humble handmaid of the Lord as well as being chosen by God to be His Mother. Jesus warned the Pharisees (who thought they were wise and learned). They were not meek and humble of heart. They exalted themselves.

No one knows the Father except the Son because the Son remains God while becoming Incarnate in Mary's womb. Jesus knows the Father as no person who is only human can know the Father. However the Son has chosen to reveal Him (The Father) to those who listened to Him and pondered all He said in their hearts, as Mary surely did. The Scripture tells us she pondered all in her heart. Consider the Gospel of Luke especially Lk 2:19. Even when Mary and Joseph did not understand Jesus' words that He must be in His Father's House when they found Him in the temple. Mary kept all Jesus said in her Immaculate Heart.

Mary the Mother of Jesus was given to us that we might learn from her as our Mother and Model for the Church. Mary is the one human person created with an Immaculate Heart to love God and all His children. She is not a member of the Holy Trinity, she is not God nor has she ever exalted herself but rather she simply did God's Will on earth and continues in Heaven to be His Mother. I'm sorry we were not able to agree on how "unique" Mary our Mother truly is among all women, by God's Design and Plan.

 

[Placemat]

Dear Placemat,

Yes, I have pondered those words from Jesus, and treasure them in my heart. Jesus certainly revealed much to His Little ones and continues to do so.

Amen to that!

Jesus warned the Pharisees (who thought they were wise and learned). They were not meek and humble of heart. They exalted themselves.

He certainly did, especially in Matthew 23, where He clearly describes what they did and what they were like - an excruciating dressing down for any individual or any organised religious institution of our day that resembles his description.

No one knows the Father except the Son because the Son remains God while becoming Incarnate in Mary's womb. Jesus knows the Father as no person who is only human can know the Father. However the Son has chosen to reveal Him (The Father) to those who listened to Him and pondered all He said in their hearts, as Mary surely did.

Yes, surely she did, after all, it was/is and always has been about Him and if anyone would know that, it would surely be Mary herself.

The Scripture tells us she pondered all in her heart.

Scripture does tell us that.

Consider the Gospel of Luke especially Lk 2:19. Even when Mary and Joseph did not understand Jesus' words that He must be in His Father's House when they found Him in the temple. Mary kept all Jesus said in her Immaculate Heart.

Scripture doesn't tell us that....the "Immaculate Heart" part.

I'm sorry we were not able to agree on how "unique" Mary our Mother truly is among all women, by God's Design and Plan.

Don't be sorry about us not being able to agree on how "unique" Mary was/is - there is no need for us to agree about any uniqueness of Mary, as we both seem to agree on the truly, significant point - that being how unique Jesus is, the Son of God, as Gabriel stated He would be known in what you call 'God's Design and Plan'.

 

[MariaChristi]

Amen to that!



He certainly did, especially in Matthew 23, where He clearly describes what they did and what they were like - an excruciating dressing down for any individual or any organised religious institution of our day that resembles his description.



Yes, surely she did, after all, it was/is and always has been about Him and if anyone would know that, it would surely be Mary herself.


Scripture does tell us that.



Scripture doesn't tell us that....the "Immaculate Heart" part.



Don't be sorry about us not being able to agree on how "unique" Mary was/is - there is no need for us to agree about any uniqueness of Mary, as we both seem to agree on the truly, significant point - that being how unique Jesus is, the Son of God, as Gabriel stated He would be known in what you call 'God's Design and Plan'.

 

[MariaChristi]

Dear placemat,

Ah but, I cannot help being sorry that one who is feeling "all sufficient" in her relationship with Jesus is not willing or able somehow to give due honor to His Mother -- as Jesus did. in fact the Trinity of Persons in God have honored this simple, humble woman Mary, by giving her the tremendous privilege of being conceived without the stain of original sin, and also gave her an Immaculate Heart to receive in her womb the Incarnate Son of God.

Placemat, do you really believe God thinks it's all about Him? Did Jesus go to the Cross because it was all about Himself? Love isn't like That, and God is Love. Love wants to share. Jesus emptied Himself on the Cross...and Jesus shared His Mother with us from His Cross because Love gives freely, out of Love for another. Jesus in His Love for us, knew we needed the example of Mary Whom God created to be His Mother. Mary in her love for God said to the Angel Gabriel's Message: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to your word." For Mary it was all about Love also.

As St. Paul wrote in 1 Cor 13:13 -"So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love"

 

[Placemat]

Dear placemat,

Ah but, I cannot help being sorry that one who is feeling "all sufficient" in her relationship with Jesus is not willing or able somehow to give due honor to His Mother -- as Jesus did. in fact the Trinity of Persons in God have honored this simple, humble woman Mary, by giving her the tremendous privilege of being conceived without the stain of original sin, and also gave her an Immaculate Heart to receive in her womb the Incarnate Son of God.

Thank you for clearing that up for me....as I was baffled as to why you would feel sorry for me, and could not understand why you were not rejoicing with me for the contentment, peace, joy and assurance that I have in my relationship with Jesus, which is based on and found in HIS suffiency - and I also understand now why you think I do not give 'due honor' to His mother - as you believe He did, as it stems from what the Catholic church has developed and taught you....about her....whereas I believe what the Apostles believed and taught ....about Him:

Colossians 2 nkjv

6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, as you have been taught, abounding in it with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

Placemat, do you really believe God thinks it's all about Him?

MariaChristi, do you really believe God thinks it's all about Mary?

Colossians 1: 15-20

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Did Jesus go to the Cross because it was all about Himself?
Love isn't like That, and God is Love. Love wants to share. Jesus emptied Himself on the Cross...and Jesus shared His Mother with us from His Cross because Love gives freely, out of Love for another.

Well I know Jesus didn't go to the cross because it was all about Mary.
He went to the cross because of His love for everyone. He also showed how much He loved Mary by ensuring that she would be cared for here on earth after He died, by putting her in John's care.

Jesus in His Love for us, knew we needed the example of Mary Whom God created to be His Mother.

HE was/is our example. The Apostles always pointed to Him as the example, and even to themselves as examples to follow, never to Mary.

"If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them."
John 13:14-17, KJV

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:"
1 Peter 2:21, KJV

12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.” John 8:12 nkjv

Mary in her love for God said to the Angel Gabriel's Message: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done to me according to your word." For Mary it was all about Love also.

Yes, she showed great love and obedience to God.

As St. Paul wrote in 1 Cor 13:13 -"So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love"

Beautiful scripture.

 

[fide]

...I also understand now why you think I do not give 'due honor' to His mother - as you believe He did, as it stems from what the Catholic church has developed and taught you....about her....whereas I believe what the Apostles believed and taught ....about Him:
........

Placemat, I get the sense (please correct me if I'm wrong). that the "It's all about Jesus" response to Catholic devotion to Mary is a very wrong neglect of an essential part of Jesus and the Gospel. Jesus certainly did not go to the Cross for Self-satisfaction or Self-gratification, but rather in Selfless, Self-giving love for every human person. And further, He does not offer us salvation in Him so that we might have an eternity of "Jesus and me," blind to the multitudes saved by Him and in Him. In a sense it is certainly NOT "all about Jesus." It is about the Father's will to create human persons in His image and likeness, human persons able to share an eternal communion of love in and with the Holy Trinity, and in and with communion (holy fellowship, koinonia) - mutual love - with one another in Him.

I haven't heard any of this reality - this commanded Truth - in your setting aside of Mary to focus instead on Jesus "directly". Christian fellowship in love and truth is commanded!

Jn 15:12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.​

The Body of Christ is His Body, beloved by Him and must be beloved by us, or we have no love in us at all. Mary and all the faithful in glory are in a perfect communion of love with one another and in Him, and they cannot be marginalized, or displaced, or neglected or ignored or worst of all - they cannot be cast away as if they somehow were in competition for love and glory that Jesus deserves. Jesus did die to enable a loving fellowship now and for eternity in glory with Him and in the Holy Trinity. God loves, and loves means (for Him and for us) giving, sharing, embracing all whom He loves.

Does He love Mary, His mother? She might be a first "test case" in a self-examination.

1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
1Jn 3:15 Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 3:16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God.
1Jn 4:8 He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.
1Jn 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins.
1Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
1Jn 4:12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

1Jn 4:19 We love, because he first loved us.
1Jn 4:20 If any one says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
1Jn 4:21 And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also.​

("brother" includes "sisters", and mothers, His and ours, too.)

 

[MariaChristi]

Sorry - edited out.

 

[MariaChristi]

Dear Placemat,

Thanks for your reply. In answer to your words about my "clearing up" why I am sorry: my sorrow remains for anyone who seems not to "hear" and "see" by faith given to us in Baptism, The Infinite Love of Jesus for His Mother Mary as well as His Infinite love for all those He died to save.

Your quotes from Scripture are all beautiful, as the Word of God is True and Holy and Beautiful, but if we merely interpret Scripture according to our own thoughts we run the risk if missing the depth of God's Word.

You seem to contradict yourself in saying: "Well I know Jesus didn't go to the cross because it was all about Mary. He went to the cross because of His love for everyone." Is Mary not one of His Faithful followers? The apostles surely knew how much Jesus loved Mary and the Apostle John in Obedience to Jesus took Mary "into his own" (as the original Greek has it -- translators added the words "his home"). If you have read any of the Early Fathers of the Church -- St. Irenaeus for example, you would hear his praise of Mary and his defense of her against heretics (c ~180 AD). Tradition tells us that Irenaeus learned from Bishop Polycarp, Polycarp learned from the Apostle John (and John learned from our Mother Mary.)

You wrote that Mary showed great Love and obedience to God -- personally I think that is true but also an understatement. Mary is Unique! Mary, "full of Grace," conceived without sin, loved Jesus more than any other human person God created. She is called the New Eve as Jesus is called the New Adam by St. Irenaeus. He was the first to draw comparisons between Eve and Mary, contrasting the faithlessness of Eve with the faithfulness of Mary. Irenaeus is one of the earliest of the Church Fathers to begin to develop Catholic Mariology.

Irenaeus describes Mary's role in the economy of salvation, presenting Mary as the New Eve whose obedience, obedience in the Annunciation counters Eve's disobedience in the Garden. I won't go further in what this early Father of the Church wrote, but I do believe that Faith comes from hearing as St. Paul wrote and we need to Listen carefully to all Jesus said and taught. For He told the disciples they could not understand everything yet, but He would send the Holy Spirit to bring the fullness of His Truth to the Church. Jesus is Truth and the Holy Spirit continues to inspire us by the Words Jesus taught. He has continued to inspire and will continue to inspire His Church.

 

[Placemat]

n/t

 

[Placemat]

Dear Placemat,
Thanks for your reply. In answer to your words about my "clearing up" why I am sorry: my sorrow remains for anyone who seems not to "hear" and "see" by faith given to us in Baptism, The Infinite Love of Jesus for His Mother Mary as well as His Infinite love for all those He died to save.

Yes, I can see how confusing it is for you, not being able to comprehend that there are Christians who do not follow the Catholic church’s developed teachings regarding Mary (or their teaching on ‘Baptism’) and yet can and do understand the love Jesus had for Mary and for all those He died to save.

Your quotes from Scripture are all beautiful, as the Word of God is True and Holy and Beautiful, but if we merely interpret Scripture according to our own thoughts we run the risk if missing the depth of God's Word.

So true. I strongly suggest prayer to Him, for His guidance and protection, to ensure that it is only His Truth that is revealed and not simply something built on your own understanding or on someone else’s understanding. Do you do much Scripture interpretation yourself Maria?

You seem to contradict yourself in saying: "Well I know Jesus didn't go to the cross because it was all about Mary. He went to the cross because of His love for everyone." Is Mary not one of His Faithful followers?

Mary is included in the ‘everyone’ – why would you not think she would be??? - no contradiction.

The apostles surely knew how much Jesus loved Mary and the Apostle John in Obedience to Jesus took Mary "into his own" (as the original Greek has it -- translators added the words "his home"). If you have read any of the Early Fathers of the Church -- St. Irenaeus for example, you would hear his praise of Mary and his defense of her against heretics (c ~180 AD). Tradition tells us that Irenaeus learned from Bishop Polycarp, Polycarp learned from the Apostle John (and John learned from our Mother Mary.)

You wrote that Mary showed great Love and obedience to God -- personally I think that is true but also an understatement. Mary is Unique! Mary, "full of Grace," conceived without sin, loved Jesus more than any other human person God created. She is called the New Eve as Jesus is called the New Adam by St. Irenaeus. He was the first to draw comparisons between Eve and Mary, contrasting the faithlessness of Eve with the faithfulness of Mary. Irenaeus is one of the earliest of the Church Fathers to begin to develop Catholic Mariology.

Irenaeus describes Mary's role in the economy of salvation, presenting Mary as the New Eve whose obedience, obedience in the Annunciation counters Eve's disobedience in the Garden.

Oh Maria….I don’t know how to say this, but to me this just shows that this ECF was at the top of a ‘slippery slope’ and the church had already begun to develop a different teaching than the Apostle’s had given.

I won't go further in what this early Father of the Church wrote, but I do believe that Faith comes from hearing as St. Paul wrote and we need to Listen carefully to all Jesus said and taught. For He told the disciples they could not understand everything yet, but He would send the Holy Spirit to bring the fullness of His Truth to the Church.

Maria, we must be careful, as you pointed out, when it comes to interpreting what Scripture says and this extends especially when offering ‘paraphrases’ as you have done and not actually quoting what the Scripture actually says. Sometimes the actual Scripture doesn’t match up to the ‘paraphrase’ as in this instance and can appear to be misleading.

 

[Placemat]

Placemat, I get the sense (please correct me if I'm wrong). that the "It's all about Jesus" response to Catholic devotion to Mary is a very wrong neglect of an essential part of Jesus and the Gospel.

From a Catholic perspective and the Catholic devotion to Mary that the Catholic church promotes and teaches, I can truly understand that this is what you would sense. From my non-Catholic perspective, the devotion to Mary as promoted and taught by the Catholic church is not considered “an essential part of Jesus and the Gospel.”

Jesus certainly did not go to the Cross for Self-satisfaction or Self-gratification, but rather in Selfless, Self-giving love for every human person.

I totally agree and have stated so – just not as eloquently.

And further, He does not offer us salvation in Him so that we might have an eternity of "Jesus and me," blind to the multitudes saved by Him and in Him.

I don’t believe anyone has stated that. Where is your “quote” from?

In a sense it is certainly NOT "all about Jesus." It is about the Father's will to create human persons in His image and likeness, human persons able to share an eternal communion of love in and with the Holy Trinity, and in and with communion (holy fellowship, koinonia) - mutual love - with one another in Him.

In the ‘sense’ that you have provided, I agree; and I stand by the ‘sense’ that I presented in context of that clipped quote of mine and what it was about.

I haven't heard any of this reality - this commanded Truth - in your setting aside of Mary to focus instead on Jesus "directly". Christian fellowship in love and truth is commanded!

Jn 15:12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

Fide, with all due respect, that I have not satisfied your understanding of what constitutes ‘love’ based on the Catholic church’s developed teachings regarding Mary is of little concern to me, as the Lord Himself knows my intentions and whom I love, and how much I love them and how I honor them and why I love them.

The Body of Christ is His Body, beloved by Him and must be beloved by us, or we have no love in us at all.

Agreed!

Mary and all the faithful in glory are in a perfect communion of love with one another and in Him, and they cannot be marginalized, or displaced, or neglected or ignored or worst of all - they cannot be cast away as if they somehow were in competition for love and glory that Jesus deserves.

There’s something even WORSE – they cannot be exalted before Him, as He is above all things created – or – placed in roles that appear to usurp His role and veil His glory, as is resultant from the Catholic church’s developed teachings regarding Mary and what her role ‘is’ - evidenced in the prayers offered to her, such as :


O Mary, Mother of God As You are above all creatures in Heaven and Earth, more glorious than the Cherubim, more noble than any here below, Christ has given You to His people, firm bulwark and Protectress, to shield and save sinners who fly unto You. Therefore O Lady, all embracing refuge, we solemnly recall Your sweet protection, and beg Christ forever for His mercy.
Amen


Mary, Mother of God # 1 - Prayers - Catholic Online


Ephesians 1:nkjv

19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality[g] and [h]power and [i]might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.



Psalms 46:1-3 nkjv

God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear, Even though the earth be removed, And though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; Though its waters roar and be troubled, Though the mountains shake with its swelling. Selah

Jesus did die to enable a loving fellowship now and for eternity in glory with Him and in the Holy Trinity. God loves, and loves means (for Him and for us) giving, sharing, embracing all whom He loves.

Does He love Mary, His mother? She might be a first "test case" in a self-examination.

For whom? Has anyone stated that they don’t love Mary or that Jesus didn’t love His mother.

1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
1Jn 3:15 Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 3:16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God.
1Jn 4:8 He who does not love does not know God; for God is love.
1Jn 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins.
1Jn 4:11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
1Jn 4:12 No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
1Jn 4:19 We love, because he first loved us.
1Jn 4:20 If any one says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.
1Jn 4:21 And this commandment we have from him, that he who loves God should love his brother also.
("brother" includes "sisters", and mothers, His and ours, too.)

Love it when scripture is posted! Although I have no idea why you post the ones about ‘hate’ when we are discussing love for Mary, as no one has stated they ‘hate’ her or anyone else?

 

[fide]

I'm sorry, Placement, but I can't see the point of your response to me! I just don't get it.

 

[fide]

There’s something even WORSE – they cannot be exalted before Him, as He is above all things created – or – placed in roles that appear to usurp His role and veil His glory, as is resultant from the Catholic church’s developed teachings regarding Mary and what her role ‘is’ - evidenced in the prayers offered to her, such as :


O Mary, Mother of God As You are above all creatures in Heaven and Earth, more glorious than the Cherubim, more noble than any here below, Christ has given You to His people, firm bulwark and Protectress, to shield and save sinners who fly unto You. Therefore O Lady, all embracing refuge, we solemnly recall Your sweet protection, and beg Christ forever for His mercy.
Amen

Please tell me what creature in Heaven or Earth is higher than Mary, and explain your judgment.

All underlined objections that you may have, flow from her maternity - mother of God and mother of all in Him. What kind of mother does not embrace, love, protect and nurture her children?

 

[Placemat]

I'm sorry, Placement, but I can't see the point of your response to me! I just don't get it.

I had difficulty in using the QUOTE function so you have to click the 'expand' below to see my response...if that's what you mean ..or if you mean you have read my response and don't get it, or the point of it, perhaps you could be more specific?

 

[fide]

I had difficulty in using the QUOTE function so you have to click the 'expand' below to see my response...if that's what you mean ..or if you mean you have read my response and don't get it, or the point of it, perhaps you could be more specific?

Yes - your post looked completely blank to me, so I was having a bit of fun with double meanings. I was sure, to be serious, that the blank post was accidental and not intended by you...
My post #413 was a serious one, which I hope you will respond to.

 

[Placemat]

Yes - your post looked completely blank to me, so I was having a bit of fun with double meanings. I was sure, to be serious, that the blank post was accidental and not intended by you...
My post #413 was a serious one, which I hope you will respond to.

Oh! Sorry.... I didn't realise it went through 'blank' ...it was late...couldn't get the Quote thing working so I just did it on a word doc and then cut and pasted the whole thing! It shows up okay on my phone and computer screen...apologies! I think the same thing must have happened to my post to Maria! And yes I saw your next post....and will respond when there's some peace and quiet - 7 yr old grandson!

 

[MariaChristi]

Dear Placemat,

Again, I remain sorry. I do spend a lot of time Listening to the Scripture, and have for a long time and continue to keep listening to God's Truth revealed in both Old and New Testaments.

I'm sorry you and others who acknowledge Mary as Mother of God yet seem reluctant to hear more deeply Jesus' Own Words, from His Cross to John and through John's Gospel to all of us: "Behold your Mother". (Jn 19:27) I believe Mary is a gift from Jesus (as I mentioned before) I simply remain sad when I encounter reluctance to receive such a beautiful gift from God as "unique" and above every other Creature. Again as I've said before Mary is not Divine herself she remains His humble handmaid but He has exalted her to be His Mother and Mary has a role from the beginning!

I'm sorry you consider the EDF to be a slippery slope, for I believe the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost and continues to come to bring the fullness of Truth as Jesus promised. When a tree brings forth Fruit is it the same tree planted? And when it brings forth more fruit because it is more mature, is it the same tree? Are you the same person as you were when you were born? Yes, you are the same person, BUT you have developed and matured, as God intends for all living things including His Church.

 

[Placemat]

Dear Placemat,

Again, I remain sorry. I do spend a lot of time Listening to the Scripture, and have for a long time and continue to keep listening to God's Truth revealed in both Old and New Testaments.

I find it amazing that after the 'long time' of listening to God's Truth that you still believe all that the Catholic church has interpreted with regards to Mary. But do read the Scriptures Maria and make sure you pray beforehand - to HIM - so that you will be ensured of receiving His Truth.

I'm sorry you and others who acknowledge Mary as Mother of God yet seem reluctant to more deeply Jesus' Own Words, from His Cross to John and through John's Gospel to all of us: "Behold your Mother". (Jn 19:27) I believe Mary is a gift from Jesus (as I mentioned before) I simply remain sad when I encounter reluctance to receive such a beautiful gift from God as "unique" and above every other Creature.

Listen carefully to these Scriptures Maria and perhaps the joy, assurance and peacefulness that He longs for you to have will replace the sadness you are experiencing.

Isaiah 26:3

3 You will keep him in perfect peace,
Whose mind is stayed on You,
Because he trusts in You.


Phillipians 4: 4-7 NKJV
4 Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice!
5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.
6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Again as I've said before Mary is not Divine herself she remains His humble handmaid but He has exalted her to be His Mother and Mary has a role from the beginning!

Yes, He did exalt her to be His mother and she fulfilled her role beautifully.

I'm sorry you consider the EDF to be a slippery slope,.........

That's not quite what I posted, which was:

Oh Maria….I don’t know how to say this, but to me this just shows that this ECF was at the top of a ‘slippery slope’ and the church had already begun to develop a different teaching than the Apostle’s had given.

.......for I believe the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost and continues to come to bring the fullness of Truth as Jesus promised.

I believe that also, however there is no guarantee that all those hearing His Truth are able to understand and receive it and define it properly.

When a tree brings forth Fruit is it the same tree planted? And when it brings forth more fruit because it is more mature, is it the same tree? Are you the same person as you were when you were born? Yes, you are the same person, BUT you have developed and matured, as God intends for all living things including His Church.

However He doesn't intend for His Truth to be 'developed' into something that He or the Apostles never taught/preached about.

 

[Placemat]

Please tell me what creature in Heaven or Earth is higher than Mary, and explain your judgment.

I believe it is your understanding that she is in Heaven, based on the Catholic church’s teachings, therefore not something for me to address, my posting of the prayer to Mary AND the scripture verses I posted were used to substantiate what I said:

There’s something even WORSE – they cannot be exalted before Him, as He is above all things created – or – placed in roles that appear to usurp His role and veil His glory, as is resultant from the Catholic church’s developed teachings regarding Mary and what her role ‘is’ - evidenced in the prayers offered to her,…

Ephesians substantiating Who He is and His position above everyone, every thing and every name (which includes Mary’s) and (whether she’s in Heaven now or not until later) HIS preeminence always.

The 2nd Scripture sample confirms Whom our Refuge is –to Whom we should be turning too – and it isn’t Mary.

Ephesians 1:nkjv

19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality[g] and [h]power and [i]might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come

22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Psalms 46:1-3 nkjv

God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble. Therefore we will not fear, Even though the earth be removed, And though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea; Though its waters roar and be troubled, Though the mountains shake with its swelling. Selah

All underlined objections that you may have, flow from her maternity - mother of God and mother of all in Him. What kind of mother does not embrace, love, protect and nurture her children?

Again, that’s Catholic teaching and understandable that you believe it.

I trust the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and their more than sufficient embracing love and protection and nurturing.

 

[MariaChristi]

I find it amazing that after the 'long time' of listening to God's Truth that you still believe all that the Catholic church has interpreted with regards to Mary. But do read the Scriptures Maria and make sure you pray beforehand - to HIM - so that you will be ensured of receiving His Truth.



Listen carefully to these Scriptures Maria and perhaps the joy, assurance and peacefulness that He longs for you to have will replace the sadness you are experiencing.

Isaiah 26:3

3 You will keep him in perfect peace,
Whose mind is stayed on You,
Because he trusts in You.


Phillipians 4: 4-7 NKJV
4 Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice!
5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.
6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God; 7 and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.



Yes, He did exalt her to be His mother and she fulfilled her role beautifully.


That's not quite what I posted, which was:

Oh Maria….I don’t know how to say this, but to me this just shows that this ECF was at the top of a ‘slippery slope’ and the church had already begun to develop a different teaching than the Apostle’s had given.



I believe that also, however there is no guarantee that all those hearing His Truth are able to understand and receive it and define it properly.



However He doesn't intend for His Truth to be 'developed' into something that He or the Apostles never taught/preached about.