Is there salvation without Mary?

[MariaChristi]

Dear Placemat,

In reply: I do pray before, during and after reading Scripture and continue by His Grace to remain pondering His Word throughout the day. I know without Him I can do nothing good and what I hear in the Scriptures is God's Truth.

Listening to God's Word in Isaiah and also the Letter of Paul which you quoted -- I assure you is a Joy for me as is All Scripture! - Joy and Peace comes to us in listening to God's Word. He gives His Peace, not as the world gives.

What saddens me is to hear persons claiming to know Jesus and who yet seem unwilling to listen deeply enough to learn also the depth of His Sorrow over those He came to save. How many really listen to this passage (Lk 19 41-42)?​

"As He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, For the days are coming upon you when your enemies will raise a palisade against you; they will encircle you and hem you in on all sides saying, “If this day you only knew what makes for peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. For the days are coming upon you when your enemies will raise a palisade against you; they will encircle you and hem you in on all sides."

How many ponder His Words from the Cross (Jn 19:27)?
"Behold Your Mother" Not many weep over Mary's sorrow as Jesus saw her, but rather seem to reject the Gift of her from Jesus to be their Spiritual Mother.

Perhaps you have never really understood the Catholic Church's Devotion to Mary, and that saddens me, placemat, because I believe God wants us all to "see" by supernatural Faith: He created Mary for us to have a perfect human Model. We follow Christ and He is all sufficient as you said. I agree with you - but you leave out the Love He placed in the Heart of Mary for All God's children. I continue to pray for all those who have yet to learn the absolute "uniqueness of Mary" created Immaculate by God from her conception and given to us by Jesus as "His Gift'. I don't know if there is any purpose in our continuing to go back and forth over this. I am sad but have hope that one day ALL will come to see truly the Beauty of God's work in Mary for us.

​

 

[Placemat]

Dear Placemat,

In reply: I do pray before, during and after reading Scripture and continue by His Grace to remain pondering His Word throughout the day. I know without Him I can do nothing good and what I hear in the Scriptures is God's Truth.

Listening to God's Word in Isaiah and also the Letter of Paul which you quoted -- I assure you is a Joy for me as is All Scripture! - Joy and Peace comes to us in listening to God's Word. He gives His Peace, not as the world gives.

What saddens me is to hear persons claiming to know Jesus and who yet seem unwilling to listen deeply enough to learn also the depth of His Sorrow over those He came to save. How many really listen to this passage (Lk 19 41-42)?​

"As He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, For the days are coming upon you when your enemies will raise a palisade against you; they will encircle you and hem you in on all sides saying, “If this day you only knew what makes for peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. For the days are coming upon you when your enemies will raise a palisade against you; they will encircle you and hem you in on all sides."

How many ponder His Words from the Cross (Jn 19:27)?
"Behold Your Mother" Not many weep over Mary's sorrow as Jesus saw her, but rather seem to reject the Gift of her from Jesus to be their Spiritual Mother.

Perhaps you have never really understood the Catholic Church's Devotion to Mary, and that saddens me, placemat, because I believe God wants us all to "see" by supernatural Faith: He created Mary for us to have a perfect human Model. We follow Christ and He is all sufficient as you said. I agree with you - but you leave out the Love He placed in the Heart of Mary for All God's children. I continue to pray for all those who have yet to learn the absolute "uniqueness of Mary" created Immaculate by God from her conception and given to us by Jesus as "His Gift'. I don't know if there is any purpose in our continuing to go back and forth over this. I am sad but have hope that one day ALL will come to see truly the Beauty of God's work in Mary for us.

​

Yes, you posted something similar way back in #398:

MariaChristi: Can you accept this? If not, perhaps there is no reason to go further.

...and I responded with:

Quite content and thriving in His care thank you! and some scripture.

So in response, once again, I am quite content and thriving in His care thank you and His love and His peace and His sufficiency!

Phil. 4:6 - 7

6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

 

[fide]

And I am so grateful and I love her for her faith, obedience and for fulfilling her role as His mother, she was truly blessed.

I wonder how you understand "the woman" in Revelations in this passage:

Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
Rev 12:12 Rejoice then, O heaven and you that dwell therein! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had borne the male child.
Rev 12:14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.
Rev 12:15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood.
Rev 12:16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon had poured from his mouth.
Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.
​

Do non-Catholics who do not see Mary as their mother, see themselves as among "those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus." Who is this woman in this passage, who, Scripture says, is their mother? Is this woman your mother?

 

[Placemat]

I wonder how you understand "the woman" in Revelations in this passage:

Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.
Rev 12:12 Rejoice then, O heaven and you that dwell therein! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had borne the male child.
Rev 12:14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.
Rev 12:15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood.
Rev 12:16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon had poured from his mouth.
Rev 12:17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.
​

Do non-Catholics who do not see Mary as their mother, see themselves as among "those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus." Who is this woman in this passage, who, Scripture says, is their mother? Is this woman your mother?

I cannot speak for all non Catholic Christians who don't see Mary as their Mother, but I have no reason to assume they don't see themselves among those "who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus". I don't see Mary as "my Mother" and I don't see this woman in scripture as being Mary. That passage has been interpreted, even by some Catholic theologians to be either Israel or His church or Mary.

 

[mmksparbud]

Name one verse that says she died for anyone sins.

 

[fide]

I cannot speak for all non Catholic Christians who don't see Mary as their Mother, but I have no reason to assume they don't see themselves among those "who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus". I don't see Mary as "my Mother" and I don't see this woman in scripture as being Mary. That passage has been interpreted, even by some Catholic theologians to be either Israel or His church or Mary.

First, please note that we don't choose who is our mother. We can only recognize the truth, or deny the truth of it.

Second, note that this same woman brought forth "a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron" (Rev 12:5). Who is that woman - what is her name? Do you know?

That same woman is your mother, if you are one "who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus." (Jn 12:17) Do you do that? Do you keep the commandments, and bear testimony to Jesus? If you do, that woman is your mother. Do you know her name?

When it's just you, and Jesus, and Mary in the room listening, who is the woman in this passage? How do you "interpret" the passage, and "the woman"? Forget eisigesis. Listen to the Word of God.

The Beloved Disciple, whom Jesus loved, who stood with Mary at the foot of the Cross, was given to Mary as her son. Since then, all who stand under the Cross - with Mary - are given to her as child - all who "keep the commandments, and bear testimony to Jesus."

John 14:21 He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.

Are you a "Beloved Disciple"?

 

[Placemat]

First, please note that we don't choose who is our mother. We can only recognize the truth, or deny the truth of it.

I understand that you believe this to be true with regards to the Catholic church’s teachings about Mary, however, as you are aware, I disagree with that belief.

Second, note that this same woman brought forth "a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron" (Rev 12:5). Who is that woman - what is her name? Do you know?

A lot of people don’t know, including Catholic theologians, as Revelations is riddled with symbolism. Did a ‘dragon’ chase the woman and her remnant?

That same woman is your mother, if you are one "who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus." (Jn 12:17) Do you do that? Do you keep the commandments, and bear testimony to Jesus? If you do, that woman is your mother.

Again, based upon Catholic church teaching which is unproven, dubious and stated here, by you in a rather 'inquisitional' manner.

Do you know her name?

Well I do know my birth mother's name. Ironically, it happens to be Mary.

(Jn 12:17) - your scripture verse is in relation to ?????

When it's just you, and Jesus, and Mary in the room listening, who is the woman in this passage? How do you "interpret" the passage, and "the woman"? Forget eisigesis. Listen to the Word of God.

Have no idea what that word means, so easy to forget!

The Beloved Disciple, whom Jesus loved, who stood with Mary at the foot of the Cross, was given to Mary as her son.

Yes, scripture states that.

Since then, all who stand under the Cross - with Mary - are given to her as child - all who "keep the commandments, and bear testimony to Jesus."

This was/is not a ‘commandment’ from Jesus, but based on the developed Marian teachings of the Catholic church.

John 14:21 He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.

Lovely scripture the whole Chapter of John 14 – as you read through it there are so many wonderful verses right from the first one (KJV) - ALL about Himself/God the Father/the Holy Spirit.

1. Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Through to His response to Thomas’ question:

5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Through Philip’s statement:

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

And of course His pronouncement, where He promises to give the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth and clarifies Whom will be present and “listening” (note: there is no mention that Mary will be present and “listening” at any time)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

And then the rest of the Chapter, establishing where our faith and focus should be:

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Are you a "Beloved Disciple"?

I am a 'disciple' of His and know that He loves me.

 

[fide]

Ah, the human heart! As Gollum might say, "Tricksy it is - tricksy."

Eisigesis -- I misspelled the word: but in "Answers.com" one finds,
"Eisegesis is a term to commonly used when referring to someone reading a certain understanding or opinion into a certain text, usually Biblical text, which may or may not be supported or evident by a plain reading of the text itself - in accordance with the person's own presuppositions, agendas, and/or biases.

Eisegesis is often used to prove a point, rather than to strictly search for the truth revealed in the text. Contrary to eisegesis, exegesis means reading out of the text. That means putting aside one's presuppositions, agendas, and biases - to search out the truth of the matter through the plain reading of the text - although the revealed truth might be something one disagrees with."

 

[bbbbbbb]

Ah, the human heart! As Gollum might say, "Tricksy it is - tricksy."

Eisigesis -- I misspelled the word: but in "Answers.com" one finds,
"Eisegesis is a term to commonly used when referring to someone reading a certain understanding or opinion into a certain text, usually Biblical text, which may or may not be supported or evident by a plain reading of the text itself - in accordance with the person's own presuppositions, agendas, and/or biases.

Eisegesis is often used to prove a point, rather than to strictly search for the truth revealed in the text. Contrary to eisegesis, exegesis means reading out of the text. That means putting aside one's presuppositions, agendas, and biases - to search out the truth of the matter through the plain reading of the text - although the revealed truth might be something one disagrees with."

The assumption is that there is a relevant text, at least a relevant text in the Bible. There are multitudes of texts outside of the Bible addressing all manner of things. For many Christians, the Bible is believed to be the Word of God and thus takes precedence over all other texts. However, for many Traditional Christians such as yourself, when a belief is created that has no textual basis in the Bible, it is perfectly acceptable as long as your denomination endorses it.

 

[Placemat]

Ah, the human heart! As Gollum might say, "Tricksy it is - tricksy."

Eisigesis -- I misspelled the word: but in "Answers.com" one finds,
"Eisegesis is a term to commonly used when referring to someone reading a certain understanding or opinion into a certain text, usually Biblical text, which may or may not be supported or evident by a plain reading of the text itself - in accordance with the person's own presuppositions, agendas, and/or biases.

Eisegesis is often used to prove a point, rather than to strictly search for the truth revealed in the text.

Firstly, you once again, have presumed that I was using "Eisigesis", when you stated: "Forget eisigesis. Listen to the Word of God." - when in actuality, I was not and have never attempted to do so. As I've stated to a previous poster, when I read, or listen to scripture, I never attempt to do so on my own, but with prayer prior to, for guidance and understanding and true application to my life as HE sees fit.

If anything, when I read that definition given above, it sums up pretty much how the Catholic church has developed their doctrines over the years, especially with its Marian teachings and practices.

 

[fide]

Firstly, you once again, have presumed that I was using "Eisigesis", when you stated: "Forget eisigesis. Listen to the Word of God." - when in actuality, I was not and have never attempted to do so. As I've stated to a previous poster, when I read, or listen to scripture, I never attempt to do so on my own, but with prayer prior to, for guidance and understanding and true application to my life as HE sees fit.

If anything, when I read that definition given above, it sums up pretty much how the Catholic church has developed their doctrines over the years, especially with its Marian teachings and practices.

I've never met anyone who admits to eisegesis. You are in a very large group who all profess only taking from the text only what is there, nothing else. Everyone is objective. No prejudging, no finding only what they are looking to find....

My counsel is, keep listening. Those who seek, will find. Those who look for confirmation, not "news", find only confirmation.

 

[Placemat]

I've never met anyone who admits to eisegesis. You are in a very large group who all profess only taking from the text only what is there, nothing else. Everyone is objective. No prejudging, no finding only what they are looking to find....

My counsel is, keep listening. Those who seek, will find. Those who look for confirmation, not "news", find only confirmation.

Your "counsel" is hollow as it is based on your own biased opinions and untrue presumptions that you state as if they were fact.

I'll leave you here Fide.

Phillipians 4:6-7
Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

 

[fide]

....
I'll leave you here Fide.
.

No, I'm sorry, to "leave" you would have had to be here.

Seek the Truth.

 

[The Liturgist]

@fide is your profile pic an icon of St. Sharbel? I really like it.

In answer to the basic premise of this thread, I think the correct answer is that God chose Mary, who consented to participate, as a major part in the Economy of Salvation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

@fide is your profile pic an icon of St. Sharbel? I really like it.

In answer to the basic premise of this thread, I think the correct answer is that God chose Mary, who consented to participate, as a major part in the Economy of Salvation.

This opens up the whole problem of the freedom of the human will. If Mary had not consented, did God have a Plan B?

 

[prodromos]

God foreknew Mary would freely consent.

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

Mary only giving birth to and only mothering the humanity of Jesus is a condemned heresy! She is the mother of His entire person, He is God and she is His mother!

We have to be careful not to apply 21st century style 'mathematical' thinking to this situation. Yes, Jesus is called 'god' (the Greek didn't use capital letters); but mostly described/addressed as 'son of God' / 'Christ' - 'Messiah'. The term 'mother of God/god' is not found in the Biblical texts. Neither do we find texts with an angle like 'God/god died on the cross'.

Just sticking to the terms we find the the Biblical texts helps us avoiding headaches. Mary is the mother of the Son of God, the mother of our Messiah; and indeed blessed among the women (Luke 1:42), but not an intercessor.

 

[fide]

@fide is your profile pic an icon of St. Sharbel? I really like it.

In answer to the basic premise of this thread, I think the correct answer is that God chose Mary, who consented to participate, as a major part in the Economy of Salvation.

Yes, this is St. Charbel. This year I was happy to find his name listed as a (optional) Memorial on the USCCB website (July 24). I don't remember seeing that recognition of him before, here in the U.S. I learned of him through a Lebanese friend in a Catholic parish some years ago. His quiet devotion to prayer is a much-needed witness for this present generation and culture. How distracted we are, preoccupied with the transient - and forgetful if not ignorant of the crucial, the enduring.

 

[fide]

We have to be careful not to apply 21st century style 'mathematical' thinking to this situation. Yes, Jesus is called 'god' (the Greek didn't use capital letters); but mostly described/addressed as 'son of God' / 'Christ' - 'Messiah'. The term 'mother of God/god' is not found in the Biblical texts. Neither do we find texts with an angle like 'God/god died on the cross'.

Just sticking to the terms we find the the Biblical texts helps us avoiding headaches. Mary is the mother of the Son of God, the mother of our Messiah; and indeed blessed among the women (Luke 1:42), but not an intercessor.

Is saying "Mary is the mother of God the Son" OK?
Is the term "Trinity" a headache-inducing non-Biblical term? Or is that one OK?
Your use of the term "mathematical thinking" is an interesting one. Catholics are accused of "multiplying" doctrines; protestants are accused of "reductionary" thinking and "minimalism" of "least common denominator" doctrinal "unity" with one another, while "dividing" the oneness of God's Scriptural intention into a multitude of "denominations"....

 

[fide]

This opens up the whole problem of the freedom of the human will. If Mary had not consented, did God have a Plan B?

Freedom is not a problem; slavery is the problem. Jesus came to set us free - and Mary was, from her conception, the first fruit of the coming redemption and the salvation in Him.

Jn 8:34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, every one who commits sin is a slave to sin.
Jn 8:35 The slave does not continue in the house for ever; the son continues for ever.
Jn 8:36 So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.​

Mary would and did consent to the will of God because she was created "full of grace" from the moment of her conception. Grace is a participation in the Life of God - Mary was so "filled" with this sharing in His Life, that she would and could never choose the darkness of denying or rejecting God's will. Being so completely free in God, how could she prefer the sin of saying "no" to Him?

Mary was "made free" - so she was free indeed, and will be forever. We who have known sin, know the great joy and magnificent beauty - glory! - of choosing and living in God's will.