Is there salvation without Mary?

[Placemat]

The Catholic Church since the beginning (Pentecost) has always recognized a unique role that Mary has/had in Salvation. It is only recently that novel ideas like
have come into existence.

Gen: 3:15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Seems like she has a role.

Depends on how that scripture verse is interpreted.

Gen 3:15 . . I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

 

[concretecamper]

I have thanked God that He used such diligent and faithful individuals from the Catholic church in the transcription and safe keeping of His 'Word'

we all should be grateful to the Catholc Church

Isn't God wonderful

He sure is.

 

[Valletta]

The great pity, of course, is that none of the writers of the New Testament mentioned any of this, much less such dogmas as the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. Why is that?

Jesus works through His Church. We have the Bible from Jesus through the Catholic Church, as we have various dogmas. Why Jesus did not hand over a Bible or a list of dogmas before He ascended into Heaven
we do not know. Accept Jesus and remember His ways are far above our ways.

 

[Placemat]

Jesus works through His Church. We have the Bible from Jesus through the Catholic Church, as we have various dogmas. Why Jesus did not hand over a Bible or a list of dogmas before He ascended into Heaven
we do not know. Accept Jesus and remember His ways are far above our ways.

Jesus works through many churches, as His ways are indeed far above our ways and I know this to be true because this is found in the holy, inspired scriptures, clearly stated... as are His promises of sending the Holy Spirit so that we would not be orphans and of His statement to ' come to Him ' (paraphrase) ( go to Him)...and of the Apostle's teachings that were all based with the focus on Him ....to believe in Him, to place our trust in Him, to place our hope in Him, to have faith in Him....to holdfast to the gospel that they preached and taught...anything else formulated, developed and instituted by mere human beings in any church... should be tested against all of that....because as you stated correctly...His ways are far above our ways.

 

[fide]

, I entrust myself wholly to you. I consecrate my heart to you forever, my only desire being to love your divine Son, Jesus. Mary, none of your devout servants has ever perished; may I, too, be saved. Amen.

Have you read and understood the part you failed to underline: "I entrust myself wholly to you. I consecrate my heart to you forever, my only desire being to love your divine Son, Jesus. "

This is the purpose of true devotion to Mary: to come ever closer to Jesus, to obey Him ever more completely, to follow Him even to the Cross, as she and His beloved disciple did (with Mary!).

 

[fide]

And what is your point???

My point is, the main errors of "sola scriptura" Christianity is that its adherents interpret Scripture outside of (if not intentionally contrary to) the Faith of the Catholic Church - the Church being the rightful context of Holy Scripture. You read the Bible "out of context" when you reject its proper home in the Church. The proper exegesis of the written word must be the sacred Tradition of the Church, the "virgin mother" of the Scriptures (so to speak).

 

[Placemat]

Have you read and understood the part you failed to underline: "I entrust myself wholly to you. I consecrate my heart to you forever, my only desire being to love your divine Son, Jesus."

.
Of course I read and understood that part - I live that part - I've entrusted myself wholly to HIM forever.

This is the purpose of true devotion to Mary: to come ever closer to Jesus, to obey Him ever more completely, to follow Him even to the Cross, as she and His beloved disciple did (with Mary!).

True devotion to Jesus brings you closer to Him, just a thought.

 

[Placemat]

My point is, the main errors of "sola scriptura" Christianity is that its adherents interpret Scripture outside of (if not intentionally contrary to) the Faith of the Catholic Church - the Church being the rightful context of Holy Scripture. You read the Bible "out of context" when you reject its proper home in the Church. The proper exegesis of the written word must be the sacred Tradition of the Church, the "virgin mother" of the Scriptures (so to speak).

I understand how you as a Catholic are bound to this view regarding the interpretation of scripture by the dictates of the Catholic church and it's proclamation of being 'His Church', however , as you are aware, their are many other Christians who do not agree with this either of those viewpoints.

 

[fide]

I understand how you as a Catholic are bound to this view regarding the interpretation of scripture by the dictates of the Catholic church and it's proclamation of being 'His Church', however , as you are aware, their are many other Christians who do not agree with this either of those viewpoints.

I am "bound" to this truth (not merely a "view", which depends on the angle of perspective, nor upon "dictates" which depend upon "authority" of any kind, right or wrong) but because God is true, is Truth absolutely. In my youth I rejected all claims of truth by the Catholic Church, and became a protestant minister. But after a few years, God intervened in the depths of my being and in no uncertain terms, pointed me like an arrow to a Church I knew not "in my youth" - The Church founded upon absolute Truth, the Word of God - His Catholic Church.

I am bound to His Church because I am bound to Him. And I can understand those Christians who do not realize this - I was one of them! Only Holy Grace can overcome the prejudices of false and contradictory beliefs, and turn on a light inside the man, or the woman, who, though having eyes, could not see.

 

[Placemat]

I am "bound" to this truth (not merely a "view", which depends on the angle of perspective, nor upon "dictates" which depend upon "authority" of any kind, right or wrong) but because God is true, is Truth absolutely. In my youth I rejected all claims of truth by the Catholic Church, and became a protestant minister. But after a few years, God intervened in the depths of my being and in no uncertain terms, pointed me like an arrow to a Church I knew not "in my youth" - The Church founded upon absolute Truth, the Word of God - His Catholic Church.

I am bound to His Church because I am bound to Him. And I can understand those Christians who do not realize this - I was one of them! Only Holy Grace can overcome the prejudices of false and contradictory beliefs, and turn on a light inside the man, or the woman, who, though having eyes, could not see.

If my wording upset you, I apologise.

You are aware though, that there are many Christians who were once members of the Catholic church that have experienced the same thing as you have stated above...but in reverse.

 

[fide]

If my wording upset you, I apologise.

You are aware though, that there are many Christians who were once members of the Catholic church that have experienced the same thing as you have stated above...but in reverse.

Not quite the same, no. I was born and raised Catholic - and left as a young man who thought I "knew" the Catholic Church. I said, "In my youth I rejected all claims of truth by the Catholic Church" - I was a Catholic, who thought I knew all there was to know about the Church. Now, I see that I knew nothing but "externals" so to speak. I was wading in the shallow end of the pool, and had no clue about the depths ahead.

If you want to see the Catholic Faith, look to the saints - to examples of holiness, men and women who live the Truth in imitation of Christ. But to enter the depths oneself, one must learn to listen to the Holy Word - listen and listen and listen again until one hears what only God can say, what only God could say, as only God can say.

 

[Placemat]

Not quite the same, no. I was born and raised Catholic - and left as a young man who thought I "knew" the Catholic Church. I said, "In my youth I rejected all claims of truth by the Catholic Church" - I was a Catholic, who thought I knew all there was to know about the Church. Now, I see that I knew nothing but "externals" so to speak. I was wading in the shallow end of the pool, and had no clue about the depths ahead.

If you want to see the Catholic Faith, look to the saints - to examples of holiness, men and women who live the Truth in imitation of Christ. But to enter the depths oneself, one must learn to listen to the Holy Word - listen and listen and listen again until one hears what only God can say, what only God could say, as only God can say.

There are many former Catholics that were ' born and raised' as Catholics and left at an early age as you have described in your post and that never returned, having experienced by His grace, a new birth in Him outside of the Catholic church...and there are many former priest and nuns that have left who attest to the same.

I agree wholeheartedly with your statement regarding "listening" to what only God says, as I am sure many other non-Catholic Christians do as they read and study His Word, with a sincere and humble and contrite spirit....with no other purpose.... than to enter the depths of HIM and His Truth.

 

[fide]

There are many former Catholics that were ' born and raised' as Catholics and left at an early age as you have described in your post and that never returned, having experienced by His grace, a new birth in Him outside of the Catholic church...and there are many former priest and nuns that have left who attest to the same.

I agree wholeheartedly with your statement regarding "listening" to what only God says, as I am sure many other non-Catholic Christians do as they read and study His Word, with a sincere and humble and contrite spirit....with no other purpose.... than to enter the depths of HIM and His Truth.

No doubt there are human examples to be found for any human conclusions and life paths that can be imagined. That said, The fullness of revealed divine truth exists as a singular fact in a class of only one. There is one and only one "fullness of revealed divine truth." Where is THAT place, if it exists? THAT place, is the place I want to be. I want the church that professes the "all" of the Good News revealed by Christ and His Holy Spirit. I hope you do too.

In the non-Catholic world I visited, searching, many denominations, non-denominations, community Bible churches, home churches, non-churches, etc. I found some beliefs and theological assumptions in common in many such places - along with other beliefs and theological assumptions in some that were in contradiction to others - in other words what some would call acceptable to God if not commanded, others would call error or heresy, and so on.

The more general and/or vague a "statement of belief" was professed, the more inclusive and common it was in the world of non-Catholic Christian churches. Holy Scripture, in other words, was professed by all - but interpreted differently by all. All said "Yes! We are Bible-believing followers of the One Lord Jesus Christ!" Just don't press them too closely on what is the list of Scripture passages that are "must-believes as we do" and what is the list of "interpret it as you wish" passages. What is "essential", and what is "optional" in the Bible.

 

[Placemat]

No doubt there are human examples to be found for any human conclusions and life paths that can be imagined. That said, The fullness of revealed divine truth exists as a singular fact in a class of only one. There is one and only one "fullness of revealed divine truth." Where is THAT place, if it exists? THAT place, is the place I want to be. I want the church that professes the "all" of the Good News revealed by Christ and His Holy Spirit. I hope you do too.

What part of the Good News did Jesus neglect to let the Apostles know about when He commissioned them and sent them out?

In the non-Catholic world I visited, searching, many denominations, non-denominations, community Bible churches, home churches, non-churches, etc. I found some beliefs and theological assumptions in common in many such places - along with other beliefs and theological assumptions in some that were in contradiction to others - in other words what some would call acceptable to God if not commanded, others would call error or heresy, and so on.

The more general and/or vague a "statement of belief" was professed, the more inclusive and common it was in the world of non-Catholic Christian churches. Holy Scripture, in other words, was professed by all - but interpreted differently by all. All said "Yes! We are Bible-believing followers of the One Lord Jesus Christ!"

It sounds like a frustrating and disappointing time for you.
Perhaps time would have been better spent in getting to know HIM....I don't mean that in a nasty way, but there's no other way I can say it gently.....instead of running back to a church that was already 'ingrained' since your birth and perhaps just felt more comfortable/safe?

Just don't press them too closely on what is the list of Scripture passages that are "must-believes as we do" and what is the list of "interpret it as you wish" passages. What is "essential", and what is "optional" in the Bible.

Not sure what you're saying here?

 

[fide]

What part of the Good News did Jesus neglect to let the Apostles know about when He commissioned them and sent them out?
......

Not sure what you're saying here?

Even the best parents on earth - the wisest, the most loving, the most capable - do not and can not "let their children know" about all that they in fact need to know, when they leave home and their parents, for them - the children - to come into the full intention God has for for them in the maturity of their humanity, yet to come. Thus Jesus promised His own another teacher, counselor, advocate, to be with them after He "left them" (in a manner of speaking, and in a certain sense of reality) to return to the Father. He said,

Jn 14:25 “I have told you this while I am with you.
26 The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that told you."
...
Jn 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
​

This promise is for all the Church in communion with Him and with one another, until He returns. The journey into "all the truth" has not stopped for you either, if you seek.

 

[fide]

Depends on how that scripture verse is interpreted.

Gen 3:15 . . I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.

Actually, really, the truth of the verse does not depend on how it is interpreted. The truth of it remains true, regardless if a thousand "interpretations" think otherwise. So also the total Faith of the Catholic Church. Truth does not depend on the opinions of men.

 

[Placemat]

Even the best parents on earth - the wisest, the most loving, the most capable - do not and can not "let their children know" about all that they in fact need to know, when they leave home and their parents, for them - the children - to come into the full intention God has for for them in the maturity of their humanity, yet to come. Thus Jesus promised His own another teacher, counselor, advocate, to be with them after He "left them" (in a manner of speaking, and in a certain sense of reality) to return to the Father. He said,

Jn 14:25 “I have told you this while I am with you.
26 The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name—he will teach you everything and remind you of all that told you."
...
Jn 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
​

This promise is for all the Church in communion with Him and with one another, until He returns. The journey into "all the truth" has not stopped for you either, if you seek.

I love those verses, thank you for posting them, wonderful promises and of course as we learn from the gospels, they extend to all true and faithful Christians that are the body of His Church .

No one can ever journey enough into " all of the truth" that is of Him - the things He spoke of to the Apostles and the truth of what is to come when He returns. Afterall, He is the way, the truth and the life....

 

[Placemat]

Actually, really, the truth of the verse does not depend on how it is interpreted. The truth of it remains true, regardless if a thousand "interpretations" think otherwise. So also the total Faith of the Catholic Church. Truth does not depend on the opinions of men.

Apparently it does with respect to that verse, as another Catholic poster used a different version found in a Catholic bible where 'she' (Mary) would crush the serpent's head...not Jesus.

 

[fide]

Apparently it does with respect to that verse, as another Catholic poster used a different version found in a Catholic bible where 'she' (Mary) would crush the serpent's head...not Jesus.

No, Truth does not depend on the opinions of men. If he is wise, his thoughts and realizations conform to Truth, Truth does not conform or depend upon him in any way.

 

[fide]

I love those verses, thank you for posting them, wonderful promises and of course as we learn from the gospels, they extend to all true and faithful Christians that are the body of His Church .

No one can ever journey enough into " all of the truth" that is of Him - the things He spoke of to the Apostles and the truth of what is to come when He returns. Afterall, He is the way, the truth and the life....

If you do truly love those verses, you are blessed indeed - especially in these dark times when "truth" has been counterfeited and misrepresented and in fact hated and discarded in favor of any lie that can advance the ambitions and self-love of men. As the Lord said concerning the last days,

2Thess 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming.
2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
​

And if I may comment further on one point: If you can see that Jesus promised this Holy Spirit, and this leading into all the truth, not to isolated individuals but to His actual disciples who are gathered into a communion, a divine fellowship, together in Christ - obedient to His New Commandment of "one-another love as He has loved us." This holy fellowship has been led into His One Truth from the beginning: it subsists in what has been named the Catholic Church, entrusted with the fullness of revealed truth.