Is there salvation without Mary?

[concretecamper]

But the dead cannot hear

why? are they asleep? are they deaf? please explain

 

[James A]

@Albion , @Major1

If a Soul is able to intercede for others when it is with the body, naturally, it is able to intercede for others when it is without the body. In fact it is the body which ties a Soul to the physical space and time so departed Souls should be able to interact with God freely.

This puts the burden of proof on the Protestant Reformers - can you show me Scripture which says departed Souls cannot intercede for others?

 

[James A]

Praying to the dead is unbiblical. The Bible condemns it as both useless and dangerous. Very often, personal issues are left unresolved when a loved one dies.

Those left behind may wish to speak the words they needed to say beforehand, in hopes that the dead can hear. But the dead cannot hear. Instead, speak to the only One Who can bring closure to our own hearts. Tell God how you feel, what you think about the other person, and whatever regrets you may have.

Jesus is the only mediator we need; because of His sacrifice we see in Hebrews 4:16........
"Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need".

The power of Christ in us brings healing, not the involvement of the dead.

Praying to the dead is unbiblical/But the dead cannot hear - Proof?

Jesus is the only mediator we need - I am not aware of any denomination which disagree with this. Just curios, are you rejecting the intercession of just the departed souls or you don't agree with intercession of people who are alive as well?

 

[James A]

The reason the Christians you asked about do not approve of us mortals praying TO departed souls is because the practice is unBiblical. It's really no more complicated than that.

Yet, the Christendom for the first fifteen hundred years - which includes Apostles as well- was not aware of this !!

 

[klutedavid]

Is there salvation without Mary?

is she the mother of our salvation?

our hope?

Our salvation in based solely on the gospel of Jesus Christ. The messiah promised to Israel in the Old Testament arrived in the New Testament.

If Mary has anything to do with our salvation, then the Old Testament. Would describe her arrival and importance.

 

[concretecamper]

If Mary has anything to do with our salvation, then the Old Testament. Would describe her arrival and importance.

7 Unexpected Ways the Old Testament Prefigures Mary

Prophecies of Mary and Her Role - Community in Mission

 

[Albion]

@Albion , @Major1

If a Soul is able to intercede for others when it is with the body, naturally, it is able to intercede for others when it is without the body.

Here it is as best as I can explain it. We don't decide religious doctrine on the basis of any rationalization.

A person living in the flesh is not identical to the soul of one who has passed into the afterlife, nor is there anything in Scripture which says something else. So while the spirits do pray for men, there is nothing telling us that it is good for us to pray to them or, for that matter, that they even can hear us.

 

[concretecamper]

If a Soul is able to intercede for others when it is with the body, naturally, it is able to intercede for others when it is without the body

precisely. Based on scripture and what was handed down from the Apostle, the Early Church believed in intercession from saints.

 

[James A]

Here it is as best as I can explain it. We don't decide religious doctrine on the basis of any rationalization.

A person living in the flesh is not identical to the soul of one who has passed into the afterlife, nor is there anything in Scripture which says something else. So while the spirits do pray for men, there is nothing telling us that it is good for us to pray to them or, for that matter, that they even can hear us.

A person living in the flesh is not identical to the soul

Bible verse please. A friendly reminder, we are talking about the spiritual activity of a Soul.

If the separation from the body impairs a Soul's ability to interact with other Souls and God, that should have been stated in Scriptures. On the contrary, we see Lazarus, Rich man and Abraham communicating and the Rich man was concerned about the spiritual well being of his relatives.

Jesus asked us to pray even for enemies so, as long as we don't see something like "do not pray for the departed souls" in Scriptures, we should pray for them and request their intercession in the same way we do for the people who are alive.

 

[James A]

We don't decide religious doctrine on the basis of any rationalization.

And I am yet see a Bible verse to support your claim that the prayer for the departed is not Biblical.

 

[Albion]

Bible verse please.

That's my challenge to you. What Bible verse authorizes Christians to pray to spirits, to petition them to get something for us, and so on?

If the Bible is without a justification for praying to the spirits of deceased humans, then we are not at liberty to make that be part of our religious faith anyway...simply because we've decided that doing so seems like a good idea.

It is not the case that "if the Bible doesn't say X is forbidden, then we're free to do it." And I cannot imagine where anyone would get such a notion.

 

[James A]

That's my challenge to you. What Bible verse authorizes Christians to pray to spirits, to petition them to get something for us, and so on?

If the Bible is without a justification for praying to the spirits of deceased humans, then we are not at liberty to make that be part of our religious faith anyway...simply because we've decided that doing so seems like a good idea.

It is not the case that "if the Bible doesn't say X is forbidden, then we're free to do it." And I cannot imagine where anyone would get such a notion.

That's my challenge to you. What Bible verse authorizes Christians to pray to spirits, to petition them to get something for us, and so on?

I thought I already established the burden of the proof is on Protestants?

Well, let me give it another try - we see that the souls of Lazarus, Richman and Abraham interacting much feely than they would have been on Earth. (This is in line with our understanding that the body is what limits a Soul to the physical space and time). Richman's Soul was concerned about the spiritual well-being of his relatives. Do you have a verse which states something even close to a Soul being less active spiritually once it is separated from the body? I am sure you don't because Scripture don't contradict itself.

"The reverse is our guide" is an unfortunate practice started by a group of people in the sixteenth centaury - they rejected pretty much all orthodox doctrine of the Early church based on "scripture alone", after removing over half a dozen books from scriptures !! We now have tens of thousands of them and no one is surprised.

 

[Albion]

I thought I already established the burden of the proof is on Protestants?

No, you didn't.

Well, let me give it another try - we see that the souls of Lazarus, Richman and Abraham interacting much feely than they would have been on Earth.

That is a parable, a morality tale, a fictional story that teaches some lesson. The souls in hell cannot converse with the living like that, and you know it. And even if they could do so, the story of Lazarus does not show us that particular kind of interchange (praying to the dead) happening.

 

[James A]

No, you didn't.

I seek the opinion of other participants in this thread - please see my posts #108 and #162. Who do you think the burden of proof is on - Protestants or non protestants?

That is a parable, a morality tale, a fictional story that teaches some lesson

The parable starts "there was a certain man Lazarus". Christendom generally understand this a narration of an actual event, higher than a parable so, what its says carries a lot of significance. on another note, Parable is defined as "physical story with spiritual meaning" so, even if we understand this a parable, it paints a true picture of life after death.

Life after death is arguably the most intriguing thought ever came across a human mind. Omniscient Lord certainly is aware of this so, I would not expect Him to present an incorrect picture here.

Just curious, what are your thoughts about the teaching of the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man?

the story of Lazarus does not show us that particular kind of interchange (praying to the dead) happening.

If you have missed this, I referred to this story to prove that Souls become more active spiritually once it is separated from the body. I don't think anyone can disagree.

If you are looking for a verse or parable which teaches the prayer for the departed, you wont find any because Early Church never understood the Souls become spiritually inactive (or less active) once it is separated from the body. My church, continuing the practice of the Early church, teaches that the departed Souls are part of the Congregation and they participate the Sunday Mass. ( Let us not argue on the Liturgy - I was trying to show what the Early Church taught about the state of departed Souls).

 

[Major1]

@Albion , @Major1

If a Soul is able to intercede for others when it is with the body, naturally, it is able to intercede for others when it is without the body. In fact it is the body which ties a Soul to the physical space and time so departed Souls should be able to interact with God freely.

This puts the burden of proof on the Protestant Reformers - can you show me Scripture which says departed Souls cannot intercede for others?

Actually......if you have to ask for a Scripture on this, it says that there is a lot of Bible study needed.

Then secondly, why should we have to post anything for you???? Can you not use your own Bible????

1 Timothy 2:5 ..........
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus".

 

[Major1]

I seek the opinion of other participants in this thread - please see my posts #108 and #162. Who do you think the burden of proof is on - Protestants or non protestants?




The parable starts "there was a certain man Lazarus". Christendom generally understand this a narration of an actual event, higher than a parable so, what its says carries a lot of significance. on another note, Parable is defined as "physical story with spiritual meaning" so, even if we understand this a parable, it paints a true picture of life after death.

Life after death is arguably the most intriguing thought ever came across a human mind. Omniscient Lord certainly is aware of this so, I would not expect Him to present an incorrect picture here.

Just curious, what are your thoughts about the teaching of the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man?



If you have missed this, I referred to this story to prove that Souls become more active spiritually once it is separated from the body. I don't think anyone can disagree.

If you are looking for a verse or parable which teaches the prayer for the departed, you wont find any because Early Church never understood the Souls become spiritually inactive (or less active) once it is separated from the body. My church, continuing the practice of the Early church, teaches that the departed Souls are part of the Congregation and they participate the Sunday Mass. ( Let us not argue on the Liturgy - I was trying to show what the Early Church taught about the state of departed Souls).

The Bible teaches that the eternal state of mankind is determined by our actions during our lives on earth.

Ezek. 18:20..........
“The soul who sins is the one who will die. . . . The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him”.

Roman Catholic theology allows for prayers both to the dead and on behalf of them. But even Catholic authorities admit that there is no explicit authorization for prayers on behalf of the dead in the sixty-six books of canonical Scripture.

Instead, they appeal to the Apocrypha (2 Maccabees 12:45), church tradition, the decree of the Council of Trent, etc., to defend the practice.

Bottom line.....it is not Biblical!

 

[Major1]

I thought I already established the burden of the proof is on Protestants?

Well, let me give it another try - we see that the souls of Lazarus, Richman and Abraham interacting much feely than they would have been on Earth. (This is in line with our understanding that the body is what limits a Soul to the physical space and time). Richman's Soul was concerned about the spiritual well-being of his relatives. Do you have a verse which states something even close to a Soul being less active spiritually once it is separated from the body? I am sure you don't because Scripture don't contradict itself.

"The reverse is our guide" is an unfortunate practice started by a group of people in the sixteenth centaury - they rejected pretty much all orthodox doctrine of the Early church based on "scripture alone", after removing over half a dozen books from scriptures !! We now have tens of thousands of them and no one is surprised.

Luke 16's account of Lazarus is NOT a parable. It is an actual account told by Jesus to confirm the fact that, at the point of death, one’s eternal destiny is confirmed. Either he is saved through faith in Christ and is in heaven where he is experiencing rest and joy in God’s presence, or he is in torment in hell. The story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar provides us with a vivid illustration of this truth. Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied.

Parables do not include proper names and in Luke 16 we see Lazarus, Abraham.

 

[Junia]

Is there salvation without Mary?

is she the mother of our salvation?

our hope?

will

Nope. Paul said as much didn't he when he said that women have been saved because of child bearing that is a reference to Mary bearing Jesus the saviour of our sins

 

[concretecamper]

Is there salvation without Mary?

is she the mother of our salvation?

our hope?

The answer is obviously yes.

I think people are getting sideways because they are reading your question as if was Mary needed for salvation (which would be a different question). Obviously God could have chosen to redeem mankind in any way he chose. But the fact IS, He chose Mary to be the Mother of God. He chose her to be the Mother of our salvation. Who am I to question why God chose to do things this way. It must have been for a very good reason.

 

[Junia]

But please note in the parable that paradise & torments is separated by a great gulf, & the rich man, being new to torments, didn't know Lazarus couldn't cross over to him. And, he didn't know that only GOD could send a soul of a dead person to the living, and, far as I know, the only time that happened was when He sent Samuel to Saul. And the rich man didn't know what his bros were doing after he died.

wasn't the real Samuel. The real Samuel was.resting in paradise. It was a familiar spirit