Is there salvation in Mary?

[bbbbbbb]

Oh well, to be fair, it does seem to be after midnight on the US East coast so this could be a factor. But overall, I can actually feel somewhat sorry for the Roman Catholic amateur apologists as they must become increasingly uncomfortable with trying to defend Mariolotry from within the Scriptures - that's not a role that I would particularly enjoy.

I am in China and it is afternoon here now and I keep needing to remind myself about the vast time difference with the U.S.

I agree entirely with you about having to defend such an impossible position. Usually the Bible gets abandoned in the discussion and the focus comes down to Tradition.

 

[Biblicist]

I am in China and it is afternoon here now and I keep needing to remind myself about the vast time difference with the U.S.

I agree entirely with you about having to defend such an impossible position. Usually the Bible gets abandoned in the discussion and the focus comes down to Tradition.

Without saying where you are in China, if you were in Beijing that would put you about three hours behind me here in Melbourne Australia, where it's now 7.35PM.

I often wonder how many Roman Catholics would wish that the Bible would simply go away, not that all Roman Catholics feel this way of course.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I often wonder how many Roman Catholics would wish that the Bible would simply go away, not that all Roman Catholics feel this way of course.

The fact that this question is asked is itself, as far as I'm concerned, demonstrative of the particular anti-Catholic bias that shows up around here. Catholics are frequently regarded as Christians only by a technicality, if at all.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Biblicist]

The fact that this question is asked is itself, as far as I'm concerned, demonstrative of the particular anti-Catholic bias that shows up around here. Catholics are frequently regarded as Christians only by a technicality, if at all.

-CryptoLutheran

I would say that this would be true, certainly at least within Evangelical and Pentecostal circles. In all honesty, this is a question, or more properly a dilemna, that the various Pentecostal denominations have struggled with since the Charismatic Renewal of the late 60's and 70's.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Without saying where you are in China, if you were in Beijing that would put you about three hours behind me here in Melbourne Australia, where it's now 7.35PM.

I often wonder how many Roman Catholics would wish that the Bible would simply go away, not that all Roman Catholics feel this way of course.

Actually, China has only one time, so wherever one is in China one is three hours behind you in Australia.

With regard to your comment about Catholics and in light of the reply by Via Crucis, my experience, having grown up in a Catholic city, is that most Catholics hold the Bible in high regard, although for too many it is an unknown book.

 

[Biblicist]

With regard to your comment about Catholics and in light of the reply by Via Crucis, my experience, having grown up in a Catholic city, is that most Catholics hold the Bible in high regard, although for too many it is an unknown book.

To be a bit more even handed on my part, this is not all that disimilar to how many Evangelicals and Pentecostals will give lip service to the authority of the Scriptures but when it comes down to it all, the Scriptures will regularly take second fiddle to their own viewpoints.

At least for these two groups, they can always proclaim that their personal opinions are in fact supported by the Scriptures, but for the many distinctive Roman Catholic doctrines that have absolutely no support from within the Word, for the Roman Catholic, it can quickly come down to "My tradition trumps your Scriptures". Your quite right in that many Roman Catholics are certainly unfamiliar with the Word, particularly with those from non English speaking countries in particular where it can give them a bit of a shock when they find themselves speaking to Christians who understand the Scriptures.

 

[bbbbbbb]

To be a bit more even handed on my part, this is not all that disimilar to how many Evangelicals and Pentecostals will give lip service to the authority of the Scriptures but when it comes down to it all, the Scriptures will regularly take second fiddle to their own viewpoints.

At least for these two groups, they can always proclaim that their personal opinions are in fact supported by the Scriptures, but for the many distinctive Roman Catholic doctrines that have absolutely no support from within the Word, for the Roman Catholic, it can quickly come down to "My tradition trumps your Scriptures". Your quite right in that many Roman Catholics are certainly unfamiliar with the Word, particularly with those from non English speaking countries in particular where it can give them a bit of a shock when they find themselves speaking to Christians who understand the Scriptures.

Yes, I see that all too often in discussions here at CF with Catholics. It is easy to fall into a thought pattern that whatever my church believes must be correct and that I do not personally have to examine it myself.

 

[Biblicist]

Yes, I see that all too often in discussions here at CF with Catholics. It is easy to fall into a thought pattern that whatever my church believes must be correct and that I do not personally have to examine it myself.

Over the past couple of years my wife and I have made the effort to visit a number of various churches in our city of four million, which I will grant tend to be more in line with our Pentecostal way of thinking; where given the opportunity (or where I make the opportunity) I tend to enjoy asking a few pertinent questions where I present them in a manner that gives the impression that I do not really care how they respond. As a Pentecostal it can be interesting asking other Pentecostals, both members and senior staff, questions that relate to their views on the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, where I have noticed that many so called Pentecostals (including AoG staff) actually struggle with providing not only a Biblical response but even with one that I am convinced that they believe themselves.

As I am a visitor I'm not really interested with saying much other than finding out what they believe, but I am regularly staggard by the lack of knowledge on the part of those who should know a thing or two and of course a good chinwag over a cup of coffee (or even better over a Latte or Cuppuccino) can help to get a good discussion going.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Over the past couple of years my wife and I have made the effort to visit a number of various churches in our city of four million, which I will grant tend to be more in line with our Pentecostal way of thinking; where given the opportunity (or where I make the opportunity) I tend to enjoy asking a few pertinent questions where I present them in a manner that gives the impression that I do not really care how they respond. As a Pentecostal it can be interesting asking other Pentecostals, both members and senior staff, questions that relate to their views on the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, where I have noticed that many so called Pentecostals (including AoG staff) actually struggle with providing not only a Biblical response but even with one that I am convinced that they believe themselves.

As I am a visitor I'm not really interested with saying much other than finding out what they believe, but I am regularly staggard by the lack of knowledge on the part of those who should know a thing or two and of course a good chinwag over a cup of coffee (or even better over a Latte or Cuppuccino) can help to get a good discussion going.

You are a man after my own heart. I have done the same thing myself on many occasions, although lately I have not had much opportunity other than here in China.

 

[Biblicist]

You are a man after my own heart. I have done the same thing myself on many occasions, although lately I have not had much opportunity other than here in China.

Wow . . . now its one thing for a Pentecostal such as myself to ask some questions (or is that baiting) of fellow Pentecostals here in good old sedate Australia, but I would absolutely relish being able to gain a better understanding of the complexities of the Church in China - what an exercise that would be!!!!!

 

[bbbbbbb]

Wow . . . now its one thing for a Pentecostal such as myself to ask some questions (or is that baiting) of fellow Pentecostals here in good old sedate Australia, but I would absolutely relish being able to gain a better understanding of the complexities of the Church in China - what an exercise that would be!!!!!

Yes, I highly recommend it should you ever find the opportunity.

 

[anonymous person]

”There is no one, O Most Holy Mary, who can know God except through thee; no one who can be saved or redeemed but through thee, O Mother of God; no one who can be delivered from dangers but through thee, O Virgin Mother; no one who obtains mercy but through thee, O Filled-With-All-Grace!”
--Saint Germanus of Constantinople, Patriarch of Constantinople

http://whitelilyoftrinity.com/saints_quotes_mary.html


”It is impossible to save one's soul without devotion to Mary and without her protection.”
--Saint Anselm, Archbishop and Doctor of the Church

”Not only do they offend thee, O Lady, who outrage thee, but thou art also offended by those who neglect to ask thy favors . . . He who neglects the service of the Blessed Virgin will die in his sins . . . He who does not invoke thee, O Lady, will never get to Heaven . . . Not only will those from whom Mary turns her countenance not be saved, but there will be no hope of their salvation . . . No one can be saved without the protection of Mary.
--Saint Bonaventure, Cardinal-Bishop and Doctor of the Church

”We may seek graces, but shall never find them without the intercession of Mary.”
--Saint Cajetan, Founder of the Theatines

The only salvation found in Mary was in her womb before she gave birth. Jesus is no longer there however, for He has ascended to the Father. It is to Him we look and for Him our eye must be single.

 

[All4Christ]

Oh well, to be fair, it does seem to be after midnight on the US East coast so this could be a factor. But overall, I can actually feel somewhat sorry for the Roman Catholic amateur apologists as they must become increasingly uncomfortable with trying to defend Mariolotry from within the Scriptures - that's not a role that I would particularly enjoy.

You are right...it is very early here, so that probably is a big reason for it.

 

[TaylorSexton]

The question calvinist wont answer
“Do you believe that God predetermines the fate of all, and that no one can do anything apart from that predetermination?”

I literally just answered that question in the previous post—forthrightly and unashamedly. But, the fact that you are now simply repeating yourself let's me know you have nothing of actual substance to present. In other words, you lose.

Still waiting for a reply to Hodge and Boettner...

 

[7trees]

--Saint Bonaventure, Cardinal-Bishop and Doctor of the Church

Is this the same Bonaventure that was executed between two others, like Christ, but not made a saint- or just someone with a similar name?
Thanks.

 

[7trees]

Actually mankinds Salvation was ordained by God before Creation, where our Salvation was enabled through the work of Christ on the Cross and we are joined to the Father as his sons and daughters through the indwelling Sanctifying presence of the Holy Spirit.

As for Mary, she has absolutely no part to play in this whatsoever, where the Scriptures tell us that it is the Holy Spirit who intercedes through us to the Father when we are praying in the Spirit (tongues); no Mary, no Suzie, no Peter and no dead Believers! It is through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts mankind of our sin that we can recognise our wretchedness to the point where we confess our sin and that Jesus is Lord.

Without Mary there'd be no Jesus. That seems like a pretty big part to me.

 

[7trees]

I literally just answered that question in the previous post—forthrightly and unashamedly. But, the fact that you are now simply repeating yourself let's me know you have nothing of actual substance to present. In other words, you lose.

Still waiting for a reply to Hodge and Boettner...

I seem to remember Calvin writing that 'There is no free will'- or is my memory playing tricks on me?

 

[TaylorSexton]

I seem to remember Calvin writing that 'There is no free will'- or is my memory playing tricks on me?

It depends on precisely what you mean by "free will."

 

[Thomas Woods]

No
There is no salvation through Mary. Mary's mother on the other hand is well known for her ability to come to the aid of those wanting salvation. She was the first to have an immaculate conception, so obviously is a favorite in Gods eyes.

 

[Bornagain95]

Salvation comes only through faith in Jesus Christ. To say there is salvation in any other is to say that Jesus died on the cross for no reason.