• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Is there salvation in Mary?

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,665
29,263
Pacific Northwest
✟817,896.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others

John Calvin, the Anglicized form of Jean Calvin, was a French Protestant reformer. Calvin had been a student of law, but as the teachings of Luther began to penetrate throughout Western Europe Calvin's attention turned away from matters of law to theology. Though in many respects very, very similar, Calvin's theology developed in a different direction to Luther's, and thus these two--Luther and Calvin--form effectively the two major streams of Reformation teaching (Lutheran and Reformed). Calvin had to leave his native France because Luther sympathizers were hardly welcome there, and he settled in Switzerland, his base of operations became Geneva.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Like
Reactions: All4Christ
Upvote 0

All4Christ

✙ The Handmaid of God Laura ✙
CF Senior Ambassador
Site Supporter
Mar 11, 2003
11,796
8,175
PA
Visit site
✟1,188,829.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Just as a correction: Zwingli was a Reformed theologian, thus a Calvinist (strictly speaking) but whose Eucharistic theology was further afield than Calvin's (Calvin's Eucharistic theology regarded the presence of Christ in a spiritual sense in the faith of the believer; whereas Zwingli promulgated the teaching known as Memorialism, thus denying the presence of Christ altogether).

Menno Simons is usually regarded as one of the chief founders of the Anabaptists, as Simons came to believe that paedobaptism was incorrect and he and his followers had themselves re-baptized.

Most significant in differences between Zwingli and the Anabaptists is the Zwingli was highly critical of the Anabaptist's rejection of infant baptism.

The most obvious influence that Zwingli had was on John Knox, a Scottish reformer and founder of Presbyterianism.

Where Luther found certain irreconcilable differences with Calvin, but could still more-or-less respect him; Luther found Zwingli's theology downright unacceptable and accused the Zwinglians of being "fanatics", famously saying, "I would sooner drink pure blood with the Pope than mere wine with the fanatics!"

-CryptoLuthearn

I believe Menno Simons was influenced by Zwingli's line of Christianity? I think Zwingli was a generation before Menno Simons. Zwingli's student Conrad Greibel (?) was influential to Anabaptism. Felix Manz was also very similar to Zwingli and was a big influence on Anabaptism. I didn't mean to imply that Zwingli was his founder. Rereading my post does make it sound that way though.

It's been awhile since I've studied it closely. Thanks for the info (Interesting tidbit about Luther's opinion!).

ETA: Looking it up this morning, I see that my history is a bit fuzzy...gotta go to my library and refresh my memory :) Lately I've done more research on the early church and the first schism rather than the Protestant reformation.

@ViaCrucis - FTR, I appreciate the correction! I don't want to misrepresent anything.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

TaylorSexton

1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
Jan 16, 2014
1,065
423
33
Mundelein, IL
Visit site
✟42,801.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
But doesn't Calvin say you can't be saved in Jesus name if you are not elect
Might As well turn to Mary, God doesn't really care for you if you do or dont

Nope. Not what he believed, and not what I believe, either. But thanks for your insult and also derailing the thread, dear Christian brother.
 
Upvote 0

Raggedyman

The book of straw 2:26
May 14, 2016
135
33
59
Au
✟23,225.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Single
Nope. Not what he believed, and not what I believe, either. But thanks for your insult and also derailing the thread, dear Christian brother.

Well that's what I believed
So Calvin didn't teach
Predestination
The elect
Irresistible grace
I am asking a question, not insulting, if I am wrong about my understanding of the TULIP my apologies

I can't fathom a Calvinist complaining about different denominations when God has predestined the poor soul He loves to condemnation
Do you know what TULIP stands for

I was told by a Calvinist minister I wasn't part of the elect, condemned man walking am I
 
Upvote 0

Raggedyman

The book of straw 2:26
May 14, 2016
135
33
59
Au
✟23,225.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Single
No, you do not understand it.

Or maybe you are wrong and I understand it
Use to believe in Calvinism till I realised otherwise

"The kingdom come, the will be done"
Funny thing to pray for, A soverin God to return and excercise His will if it is already being done on earth
Anyway, please have the final word and leave this thread in peace
 
Upvote 0

TaylorSexton

1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
Jan 16, 2014
1,065
423
33
Mundelein, IL
Visit site
✟42,801.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Or maybe you are wrong and I understand it.

You have shown by your insulting and sarcastic misrepresentation in your first reply to me that you do not understand it even in the slightest, regardless of whether you believe yourself to have once held these views.

But, again, thanks for derailing the thread and misrepresenting me. As a Christian brother, I truly appreciate it.
 
Upvote 0

Raggedyman

The book of straw 2:26
May 14, 2016
135
33
59
Au
✟23,225.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Single
Read carefully Mr Sexton
This has nothing to do with you as a person and I am not attacking you
I am making a clear and unbiased statement that to a Calvin, election of the saints nullifies any decision anyone makes
God is sovereign according to Calvin so the onus is on Him, not us

I am a reformed Calvinist, well studied as well

You can chose to be a martyr but its not coming from me
 
Upvote 0

TaylorSexton

1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
Jan 16, 2014
1,065
423
33
Mundelein, IL
Visit site
✟42,801.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
...election of the saints nullifies any decision anyone makes...

No, it does not. Calvin himself repudiates this, and so do I. You have arrived at this based on your own misunderstanding, not on a real understanding of Reformed theology. What you are presenting is fatalism, which every Reformed theologian since Calvin has refuted. Just read Calvin himself, along with Hodge, Bavinck, Berkhof, etc. They all deal with this very thoroughly. To say that election means that it doesn't matter what one does is to defy common sense and to utterly misrepresent the doctrine.
 
Upvote 0

Raggedyman

The book of straw 2:26
May 14, 2016
135
33
59
Au
✟23,225.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Single
No, it does not. Calvin himself repudiates this, and so do I. You have arrived at this based on your own misunderstanding, not on a real understanding of Reformed theology. What you are presenting is fatalism, which every Reformed theologian since Calvin has refuted. Just read Calvin himself, along with Hodge, Bavinck, Berkhof, etc. They all deal with this very thoroughly. To say that election means that it doesn't matter what one does is to defy common sense and to utterly misrepresent the doctrine.


If it quacks has feathers and swims on the water
http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Complaints/Charge_Fatalism.html

It is fatalism, calvinistic/theistic fatalism

Anyway this isnt the place, we disagree
You will have to accept I know more about your beliefs than you do

The question calvinist wont answer
“Do you believe that God predetermines the fate of all, and that no one can do anything apart from that predetermination?”


Go study
As I said, I am a reformed Calvinist, I matured in my Christianity, I moved on when I realised Christ died to forgive everyone if they accepted His offer

I am sorry you see me as an enemy needing to be tamed. I dont attack you, I attack Calvins doctrine and the assumption that humans are condemned or elected by God
I am a Christian, I love Catholics, I dont see them as condemned or created for eternal destruction in hell.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

TaylorSexton

1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
Jan 16, 2014
1,065
423
33
Mundelein, IL
Visit site
✟42,801.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
It is fatalism, calvinistic/theistic fatalism...

No, it's not. It is clear you have never read a single page of Reformed theological works. If you did, you wouldn't make such ignorant claims.

You will have to accept I know more about your beliefs than you do...

Ha! How cute. In your dreams, friend. This is perhaps the poorest excuse for argumentation I think I have ever seen.

Do you believe that God predetermines the fate of all, and that no one can do anything apart from that predetermination?

Yes, because God clearly teaches in his Word that nothing happens outside of his will. Calvin himself demonstrates this practically beyond dispute.

This is not fatalism, however. Fatalism is blind fate—impersonal. Predestination is the action of an eternal and personal God. They are completely different, now matter how much you or anyone else chatters otherwise. God is a God of means. Fatalism, being impersonal, knows no means, only ends.

Christ died to forgive everyone if they accepted His offer...

Perhaps you should open up a debate thread in the Reformed sub-forum and provide convincing scriptural argumentation.

I am sorry you see me as an enemy...

Where did I say or even imply this? Wow, anti-Calvinists certainly are masters of projection.

You keep saying. "You can have the last word; this isn't the place; etc., etc." When are actually going to leave it alone? You single-handedly derailed this thread, and yet you seemed determined to stick with it.
 
Upvote 0

Raggedyman

The book of straw 2:26
May 14, 2016
135
33
59
Au
✟23,225.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Single
No, it's not. It is clear you have never read a single page of Reformed theological works. If you did, you wouldn't make such ignorant claims.



Ha! How cute. In your dreams, friend. This is perhaps the poorest excuse for argumentation I think I have ever seen.



Yes, because God clearly teaches in his Word that nothing happens outside of his will. Calvin himself demonstrates this practically beyond dispute.

This is not fatalism, however. Fatalism is blind fate—impersonal. Predestination is the action of an eternal and personal God. They are completely different, now matter how much you or anyone else chatters otherwise. God is a God of means. Fatalism, being impersonal, knows no means, only ends.



Perhaps you should open up a debate thread in the Reformed sub-forum and provide convincing scriptural argumentation.



Where did I say or even imply this? Wow, anti-Calvinists certainly are masters of projection.

You keep saying. "You can have the last word; this isn't the place; etc., etc." When are actually going to leave it alone? You single-handedly derailed this thread, and yet you seemed determined to stick with it.

It is fatalism, calvinistic/theistic fatalism

seems you are happy to derail the thread as well
 
Upvote 0

TaylorSexton

1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith
Jan 16, 2014
1,065
423
33
Mundelein, IL
Visit site
✟42,801.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
It is fatalism, calvinistic/theistic fatalism

No, it's not. Read the literature. I have demonstrated how. Your only tactic is to repeat yourself in hopes that what you babble somehow becomes true by virtue of repetition. I promise you: that will not work.

But, in case you are lazy (which I fully suspect), here are a couple of writings to deal with your ignorance:

It is objected, in the fourth place, that the doctrine of decrees amounts to the heathen doctrine of fate. There is only one point of agreement between these doctrines. They both assume absolute certainty in the sequence of all events. They differ, however, not only as to the ground of that certainty, the nature of the influence by which it is secured, and the ends therein contemplated, but also in their natural effects on the reason and conscience of men.

The word Fatalism has been applied to different systems, some of which admit, while others deny or ignore the existence of a supreme intelligence. But in common usage it designates the doctrine that all events come to pass under the operation of a blind necessity. This system differs from the Scriptural doctrine of foreordination, (1.) In that it excludes the idea of final causes. There is no end to which all things tend, and for the accomplishment of which they exist. According to the Scriptural doctrine, all things are ordained and controlled to accomplish the highest conceivable or possible good. (2.) In that according to Fatalism the sequence of events is determined by an unintelligent concatenation of causes and effects. According to the doctrine of decrees, that sequence is determined by infinite wisdom and goodness. (3.) Fatalism admits of no distinction between necessary and free causes. The acts of rational agents are as much determined by a necessity out of themselves as the operations of nature. According to the Scriptures, the freedom and responsibility of man are fully preserved. The two systems differ, therefore, as much as a machine differs from a man; or as the actions of infinite intelligence, power, and love differ from the law of gravitation. (4.) The one system, therefore, leads to the denial of all moral distinctions, and to stolid insensibility or despair. The other to a sedulous regard to the will of an infinitely wise and good ruler, all whose acts are determined by a sufficient reason; and to filial confidence and submission.

—Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, vol. 1, 548–549.

Much misunderstanding arises through confusing the Christian Doctrine of Predestination with the heathen doctrine of Fatalism. There is, in reality, only one point of agreement between the two, which is, that both assume the absolute certainty of all future events. The essential difference between them is that Fatalism has no place for a personal God. Predestination holds that events come to pass because an infinitely wise, powerful, and holy God has so appointed them. Fatalism holds that all events come to pass through the working of a blind, unintelligent, impersonal, non-moral force which cannot be distinguished from physical necessity, and which carries us helplessly within its grasp as mighty river carries a piece of wood.

Predestination teaches that from eternity God has had one unified plan or purpose which He is bringing to perfection through this world order of events. It holds that all of His decrees are rational determinations founded on sufficient reason, and that He has fixed one great goal "toward which the whole creation moves." Predestination holds that the ends designed in this plan are first, the glory of God; and second, the good of His people. On the other hand Fatalism excludes the idea of final causes. It snatches the reins of universal empire from the hands of infinite wisdom and love, and gives them into the hands of a blind necessity. It attributes the course of nature and the experiences of mankind to an unknown, irresistible force, against which it is vain to struggle and childish to repine.

According to the doctrine of Predestination the freedom and responsibility of man are fully preserved. In the midst of certainty God has ordained human liberty. But Fatalism allows no power of choice, no self-determination. It makes the acts of man to be as utterly beyond his control as are the laws of nature. Fatalism, with its idea of irresistable, impersonal, abstract power, has no room for moral ideas, while Predestination makes these the rule of action for God and man. Fatalism has no place for and offers no incentives to religion, love, mercy,
holiness, justice, or wisdom, while Predestination gives these the strongest conceivable basis. And lastly, Fatalism leads to skepticism and despair, while Predestination sets forth the glories of God and of His kingdom in all their splendor and gives an assurance which nothing can shake.

Predestination therefore differs from Fatalism as much as the acts of a man differ from those of a machine, or as much as the unfailing love of the heavenly Father differs from the force of gravitation. "It reveals to us," says Smith, "the glorious truth that our lives and our sensitive hearts are held, not in the iron cog-wheels of a vast and pitiless Fate, nor in the whirling loom of a crazy Chance, but in the almighty hands of an infinitely good and wise God."

Calvin emphatically repudiated the charge that his doctrine was Fatalism. "Fate," says he, "is a term given by the Stoics to their doctrine of necessity, which they had formed out of a labyrinth of contradictory reasonings; a doctrine calculated to call God Himself to order, and to set Him laws whereby to work. Predestination I define to be, according to the Holy Scriptures, that free and unfettered counsel of God by which He rules all mankind, and all men and things, and also all parts and particles of the world by His infinite wisdom and incomprehensible justice." And again, ". . . had you but been willing to look into my books, you would have been convinced at once how offensive to me is the profane term fate: nay, you would have learned that this same abhorrent term was cast in the teeth of Augustine by his opponents."

Luther says that the doctrine of Fatalism among the heathen is a proof that "the knowledge of Predestination and of the prescience of God, was no less left in the world than the notion of divinity itself." In the history of philosophy Materialism has proven itself essentially fatalistic. Pantheism also has been strongly tinged with it.

No man can be a consistent fatalist. For to be consistent he would have to reason something like this: "If I am to die today, it will do me no good to eat, for I shall die anyway. Nor do I need to eat if I am to live many years yet, for I shall live anyway. Therefore I will not eat." Needless to say, if God has foreordained that a man shall live, He has also foreordained that he shall be kept from the suicidal folly of refusing to eat.

"This doctrine," says Hamilton, "is only superficially like the pagan 'fate.' The Christian is in the hands not of a cold, immutable determinism, but of a warm, loving heavenly Father, who loved us and gave His Son to die for us on Calvary! The Christian knows that 'all things work together for good to them that love God, even to them that are called according to His purpose.' The Christian can trust God because he knows He is all-wise, loving, just and holy. He sees the end from the beginning, so that there is no reason to become panicky when things seem to be going against us."

Hence, only a person who has not examined this doctrine of Predestination, or one who is maliciously inclined, will rashly charge that it is Fatalism. There is no excuse for anyone making this mistake who knows what Predestination is and what Fatalism is.

Since the universe is one systematized unit we must choose between Fatalism, which ultimately does away with mind and purpose, and this biblical doctrine of Predestination, which holds that God created all things, that His providence extends to all His works, and that while free Himself He has also provided that we shall be free within the limits of our
natures. Instead of our doctrine of Predestination being the same with the heathen doctrine of Fatalism, it is its absolute opposite and only alternative.

—Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Ch. 15

Have fun reading!

seems you are happy to derail the thread as well

Nope, but I will respond to false accusations. It is frustrating that everywhere I go, no matter what I say, and no matter how irrelevant it is to the topic at hand, my theological convictions are always attacked. Perhaps it shows the tender consciences of those who attack. Maybe perhaps by God's grace they understand that they are not fighting against me or Calvin (or whomever else holds to this doctrine), but against God in his Word.
 
Upvote 0

Raggedyman

The book of straw 2:26
May 14, 2016
135
33
59
Au
✟23,225.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Single
No, it's not. Read the literature. I have demonstrated how. Your only tactic is to repeat yourself in hopes that what you babble somehow becomes true by virtue of repetition. I promise you: that will not work.

But, in case you are lazy (which I fully suspect), here are a couple of writings to deal with your ignorance:
Nope, but I will respond to false accusations. It is frustrating that everywhere I go, no matter what I say, and no matter how irrelevant it is to the topic at hand, my theological convictions are always attacked. Perhaps it shows the tender consciences of those who attack. Maybe perhaps by God's grace they understand that they are not fighting against me or Calvin (or whomever else holds to this doctrine), but against God in his Word.

The question calvinist wont answer
“Do you believe that God predetermines the fate of all, and that no one can do anything apart from that predetermination?”
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,001
Melbourne, Australia
✟61,943.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Salvation can only come via God. Mary, Our Holy Mother, intercedes for us to Her Holy Son.
Actually mankinds Salvation was ordained by God before Creation, where our Salvation was enabled through the work of Christ on the Cross and we are joined to the Father as his sons and daughters through the indwelling Sanctifying presence of the Holy Spirit.

As for Mary, she has absolutely no part to play in this whatsoever, where the Scriptures tell us that it is the Holy Spirit who intercedes through us to the Father when we are praying in the Spirit (tongues); no Mary, no Suzie, no Peter and no dead Believers! It is through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts mankind of our sin that we can recognise our wretchedness to the point where we confess our sin and that Jesus is Lord.
 
Upvote 0

Raggedyman

The book of straw 2:26
May 14, 2016
135
33
59
Au
✟23,225.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Single
So much for any discussion about Catholic claims of salvation through Mary.
Speaking to those gathered at Castel Gandolfo on August 15, 2010, the Catholic feast of the Assumption of Mary, Pope Benedict XVI prior to the Angelus said:

... the All Holy is invoked as Heavenly Mother, who holds the Son of God in her arms and under whose protection the whole of humanity finds refuge, with the very ancient prayer, "We shelter under your protection, Holy Mother of God: despise not our petitions in our needs, but deliver us from every danger, O glorious and Blessed Virgin".
...
Dear Brothers and Sisters, let us trust in the One who as the Servant of God Paul VI affirmed "having been assumed into Heaven, she has not abandoned her mission of intercession and salvation" (Marialis Cultus, #18, Paul VI, Feb. 2, 1974). To her, guide of the Apostles, support of Martyrs, light of the Saints, let us address our prayers, imploring that she accompany us in this earthly life, that she help us look to Heaven and that she welcome us one day together with her Son Jesus.--
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/mary.htm


There is no doubt that anything you can conceive in your mind is out in the world happening
People are people
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,001
Melbourne, Australia
✟61,943.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Speaking to those gathered at Castel Gandolfo on August 15, 2010, the Catholic feast of the Assumption of Mary, Pope Benedict XVI prior to the Angelus said:

... the All Holy is invoked as Heavenly Mother, who holds the Son of God in her arms and under whose protection the whole of humanity finds refuge, with the very ancient prayer, "We shelter under your protection, Holy Mother of God: despise not our petitions in our needs, but deliver us from every danger, O glorious and Blessed Virgin".
...
Dear Brothers and Sisters, let us trust in the One who as the Servant of God Paul VI affirmed "having been assumed into Heaven, she has not abandoned her mission of intercession and salvation" (Marialis Cultus, #18, Paul VI, Feb. 2, 1974). To her, guide of the Apostles, support of Martyrs, light of the Saints, let us address our prayers, imploring that she accompany us in this earthly life, that she help us look to Heaven and that she welcome us one day together with her Son Jesus.--
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/mary.htm

There is no doubt that anything you can conceive in your mind is out in the world happening
People are people
From what you have provided, I would agree that this does not make Mary into a God but that this abuse of Mary's person has in fact replaced the Godhead where even the Roman Catholic 'Mary' is above that of the Trinity.
 
Upvote 0

bbbbbbb

Well-Known Member
Jun 9, 2015
30,489
13,968
73
✟425,355.00
Faith
Non-Denom
From what you have provided, I would agree that this does not make Mary into a God but that this abuse of Mary's person has in fact replaced the Godhead where even the Roman Catholic 'Mary' is above that of the Trinity.

What happened to our Catholic friends? I am not seeing any Catholic rebuttal to these serious charges. Shall I assume that they are, in fact, true?
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,045
1,001
Melbourne, Australia
✟61,943.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
What happened to our Catholic friends? I am not seeing any Catholic rebuttal to these serious charges. Shall I assume that they are, in fact, true?
Oh well, to be fair, it does seem to be after midnight on the US East coast so this could be a factor. But overall, I can actually feel somewhat sorry for the Roman Catholic amateur apologists as they must become increasingly uncomfortable with trying to defend Mariolotry from within the Scriptures - that's not a role that I would particularly enjoy.
 
Upvote 0