Is there really anything wrong with Communism?(moved frm GenTheo)

[Ryan the Ninja Goalkeeper]

I know that this is a touchy subject. I have beent thinking though that maybe Communism isn't as bad as people first think and how America propaganda plays it out.

I've just been watching WW2 propaganda films, I do believe that Communism fell in Russia. We all know Lenningrad, which before was called Stalingradf and there was a massive battle between USSR (or now Russia).

Despite the amounts of people that died and being forced to fight, Stalin was still recently voted Russia's third best ever leader.

A lot of Christian's are quick to dismiss that Communism is bad and that's it. Although if they really knew what happened between Amercia and the Indians, then well...

Is Communism that much worse than Captalism or a better way how is Captialism better than Communism?

My Grandad fought under Stalin in World War 2 and before he died stated that Communism was good and they got to live fairly well and was proud to serve his country under the USSR (he was stubborn to call it Russia).

DISCUSS....

 

[Dark_Lite]

Communism sounds good on paper. It fails utterly in reality because of human greed.

It may work for very small populations, but on any practical scale it just won't cut it.

 

[wiselife]

Ryan What do you mean by Communism? As defined in the Manifesto? The German (DDR) version? The Soviet Union? Even in the Soviet Union the one ruling in the Krushevite reforms? The one under Gorbachev? The one under Stalin? The Pseudo-Communism in China and N Korea today? Or a more basic idea?

Historical Marxist and Marxian Communism are materialist and hence not quite compatible with Christianity (to put it midly)

but if you mean something like the community of goods by monks or the Hutterite brethren, then we could talk about something

 

[Cross Reference]

Communism is a failed ideology simply because it advocates AGAINST God or there even being a God, aside from the state, set up to be the only god.. That, in itself makes it a religion.

 

[Albion]

I know that this is a touchy subject. I have beent thinking though that maybe Communism isn't as bad as people first think and how America propaganda plays it out.

I've just been watching WW2 propaganda films, I do believe that Communism fell in Russia. We all know Lenningrad, which before was called Stalingradf and there was a massive battle between USSR (or now Russia).

Despite the amounts of people that died and being forced to fight, Stalin was still recently voted Russia's third best ever leader.

A lot of Christian's are quick to dismiss that Communism is bad and that's it. Although if they really knew what happened between Amercia and the Indians, then well...

Is Communism that much worse than Captalism or a better way how is Captialism better than Communism?

My Grandad fought under Stalin in World War 2 and before he died stated that Communism was good and they got to live fairly well and was proud to serve his country under the USSR (he was stubborn to call it Russia).

DISCUSS....

Soviet Communism was far more savage and tyrannical than you seem to think. It's true that some Russians who lived under Stalin--and survived--think the system was not so bad, usually for two reasons: 1) guaranteed wages and pensions, if at a poverty level, and 2) national pride.

But Communism as it existed in that time was more barbaric than just about any regime in history, and it is impossible to excuse its crimes by comparing the USSR to any other governmental system.

The Soviets lost about 25 million people in the war. Stalin put TWICE that number to death merely because he was suspicious of anything that might challenge his total power. No Christian can look kindly upon that, even if we make inappropriate comparisons to the American Indians or, for that matter, to the treatment of the Highland clans following the Battle of Culloden. And then you are faced with justifying a system (Russian Communism) that amounts to a system that enslaved 1/7 of the whole world. We in the West seldom justify the bloody misdeeds of some of our forefathers, and there's no reason to whitewash the Soviet era just because it was somewhere else on the planet. If you really knew the policies of the Soviet government, it would curl your hair, I assure you.

BTW also, you can't compare Soviet Communism with Capitalism because Capitalism is an economic system, normally operating within a Democratic system of government. Stalism is absolute control of everything.

 

[nhisname]

I know that this is a touchy subject. I have beent thinking though that maybe Communism isn't as bad as people first think and how America propaganda plays it out.

I've just been watching WW2 propaganda films, I do believe that Communism fell in Russia. We all know Lenningrad, which before was called Stalingradf and there was a massive battle between USSR (or now Russia).

Despite the amounts of people that died and being forced to fight, Stalin was still recently voted Russia's third best ever leader.

A lot of Christian's are quick to dismiss that Communism is bad and that's it. Although if they really knew what happened between Amercia and the Indians, then well...

Is Communism that much worse than Captalism or a better way how is Captialism better than Communism?

My Grandad fought under Stalin in World War 2 and before he died stated that Communism was good and they got to live fairly well and was proud to serve his country under the USSR (he was stubborn to call it Russia).

DISCUSS....

In God's word we are accoutable for ourselves and for our own well being. How can a person be accountable when they are oppressed under a government that decides everything for them. There is no freedom of commerce, speech, religion, basically you work for the government and the government takes care of your needs in the way they see fit. It all boils down to freedom......

 

[Sphinx777]

Communism (from Latin: communis = "common") is a socioeconomic structure and political ideology that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian, classless, stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general. In political science, however, the term "Communism", usually spelled with the capital letter C, is often used to refer to the Communist states, a form of government in which the state operates under a one-party system and declares allegiance to Marxism-Leninism or a derivative thereof, even if the party does not actually claim that it has already reached communism.

Forerunners of communist ideas existed in antiquity and particularly in the 18th and early 19th century France, with thinkers such as Jean-Jacques Rousseau and the more radical Gracchus Babeuf. Radical egalitarianism then emerged as a significant political power in the first half of the 19th century in Western Europe. In the world shaped by the Industrial Revolution and the French Revolution, the newly established political left included many various political and intellectual movements, which are the direct ancestors of today's communism and socialism – these two then newly minted words were almost interchangeable at the time – and of anarchism or anarcho-communism. The two most influential theoreticians of communism of the 19th century were Germans Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, authors of The Communist Manifesto (1848), who also helped to form the first openly communist political organisations and firmly tied communism with the idea of working class revolution conducted by the exploited proletariat (or the working class). Marx posited that communism would be the final stage in the development of human society, which would be achieved after an intermediate stage called socialism and through the temporary and revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat. Communism in the Marxist sense refers to a classless, stateless, and oppression-free society where decisions on what to produce and what policies to pursue are made directly and democratically, allowing every member of society to participate in the decision-making process in both the political and economic spheres of life. Some "revisionist" Marxists of the following generations, henceforth known as reformists or social democrats, have slowly drifted away from the revolutionary views of Marx, instead arguing for a gradual parliamentary road to socialism; other communists, such as Rosa Luxemburg or Vladimir Lenin, continued to agitate and argue for world revolution.

The Bolsheviks, led by Vladimir Lenin, were brought to power by the Russia Revolution of 1917, where the Tsarist regime disrupted by World War I was smashed by the world's first workers revolution. After years of civil war (1917–1921), international isolation, erosion of the soviets (workers and peasants' councils) and internal struggle within the Bolshevik leadership, the Soviet Union was founded (1922). Lenin died after a second stroke in 1924, and despite his warnings was succeeded by Joseph Stalin. Once in power, Stalin carried out multiple purges of dissidents and left communists/opposition, particularly of those around Leon Trotsky, and established the character of Communism as the totalitarian ideology it is most commonly known as and referred to today. The Soviet Union emerged as a new global superpower on the victorious side of World War II. In the five years after the World War, Communist regimes were established in many states of Central and Eastern Europe and in China. Communism began to spread its influence in the Third World while continuing to be a significant political force in many Western countries. International relations between the Soviet Bloc and the West, led by the USA, quickly worsened after the end of the war and the Cold War began, a continuing state of conflict, tension and competition between the United States and the Soviet Union and those countries' respective allies. The "Iron curtain" between West and East then divided Europe and the world from the mid-1940s to the early 1990s. Despite many Communist successes like the victorious Vietnam War (1959-1975) or the first human spaceflight (1961), the Communist regimes were ultimately unable to keep up with their Western rivals. People under Communist regimes showed their discontent in events like the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, Prague Spring of 1968 or Polish Solidarity movement in early 1980s, most of which were ironically led by or included masses of workers. After 1985, the last Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev tried to implement market and democratic reforms under policies like perestroika ("restructuring") and glasnost ("transparency"). His reforms sharpened internal conflicts in the Communist regimes and quickly led to the Revolutions of 1989 and a total collapse of European Communist regimes outside of the Soviet Union, which itself dissolved two years later (1991). Some Communist regimes outside of Europe have survived to this day, the most important of them being the People's Republic of China, whose Socialism with Chinese characteristics attempts to introduce market reforms without western style democratization and with the introduction of new capitalist and middle classes.

​

 

[Sphinx777]

Christian communism is a form of religious communism based on Christianity. It is a theological and political theory based upon the view that the teachings of Jesus Christ compel Christians to support communism as the ideal social system. Although there is no universal agreement on the exact date when Christian communism was founded, many Christian communists assert that evidence from the Bible suggests that the first Christians, including the Apostles, created their own small communist society in the years following Jesus' death and resurrection. As such, many advocates of Christian communism argue that it was taught by Jesus and practiced by the Apostles themselves.

Christian communism can be seen as a radical form of Christian socialism. Christian communists may or may not agree with various parts of Marxism. They certainly do not agree with the atheistic views often held up as representative of most Marxists, but do agree with at least some of the economic aspects of Marxist theory, such as the idea that capitalism exploits the working class by extracting surplus value from the workers in the form of profits. Christian communists also share some of the political goals of Marxists, for example replacing capitalism with socialism, which should in turn be followed by communism at a later point in the future. However, Christian communists sometimes disagree with Marxists (and particularly with Leninists) on the way a socialist or communist society should be organized. In general, Christian communism evolved independently of Marxism, and most Christian communists share the conclusions but not the underlying premises of Marxist communists.

​

 

[Albion]

What's the difference? It's sufficient to say that Soviet Communism under Stalin was Atheistic, Totalitarian, and murderous on an unprecedented scale. Nothing in that compares with the history of Capitalism, Democracy, or -- for that matter-- Christian theology.

 

[Rhamiel]

Communism is agianst the natural order that God set up after the fall, we will work for our bread, that is natural, to not pay someone a fair wage for the work they do goes agianst Divine Justice, Communism does not care if what you get is fair to the amount of work you do, just enough to keep someone from starving to death (unless you live in the Ukraine or some other state that needs to get in line)
Capitolism can be just as cold and heartless as Communism, maybe even more so, but Capitolism can work along with Christianity to make a system that is filled with love, now we fail and it does not always work like that, but it is not made to go agianst God like Communism is

 

[Uphill Battle]

Hear Hear.


Communism (or what it was supposed to be) does not work with the sinful.


True communism (not the "pinko Commies") would mean all work, all share. Sounds an awful lot like first century Christians. They shared their posessions.

but it doesn't work that way. Never will. It didn't last with the first Christians either, sadly enough... otherwise it might be more prevelant today.

 

[HolyGuardianAngels]

I know that this is a touchy subject. I have beent thinking though that maybe Communism isn't as bad as people first think and how America propaganda plays it out.

I've just been watching WW2 propaganda films, I do believe that Communism fell in Russia. We all know Lenningrad, which before was called Stalingradf and there was a massive battle between USSR (or now Russia).

Despite the amounts of people that died and being forced to fight, Stalin was still recently voted Russia's third best ever leader.

A lot of Christian's are quick to dismiss that Communism is bad and that's it. Although if they really knew what happened between Amercia and the Indians, then well...

Is Communism that much worse than Captalism or a better way how is Captialism better than Communism?

My Grandad fought under Stalin in World War 2 and before he died stated that Communism was good and they got to live fairly well and was proud to serve his country under the USSR (he was stubborn to call it Russia).

DISCUSS....

There are many problems with Communism and many BLESSINGS with Capitalism.

Freedom is a sacred word to us Capitalist, even in Health Care, as well as Religion.

If someone wants Socialism or Communism let them relocate to a country of their choice; however, leaving Capitlist to themselves.

Communism NEEDED America to pull them out of their financial woes; and yet that victory was not played up enough in our news papers.

It is Communism which seeks to "rule" the world . . . not America.
We would surly have peace on this planet if everyone kept to themselves.

 

[Uphill Battle]

Capitalism as a blessing?

since all blessings come from God.....

I'd have to disagree.

Capitalism is a system where people beat, thieve, and pressure money out of other people. Capitalsim is a sytem where the rich can get rich, off of the poor, and rarely, if ever, give anything FROM the Rich, TO the poor. (Think for a moment... Capatalism funnels billions of dollars in to space exploration. More money than it would take to feed every Man Woman and Child who lives in that Capatilistic society.)

I am in no way advocating Marxian Communism. But calling capitalism itself a blessing, seems a bit left field to my understanding.

 

[Albion]

Capitalism as a blessing?

since all blessings come from God.....

I'd have to disagree.

Capitalism is a system where people beat, thieve, and pressure money out of other people. Capitalsim is a sytem where the rich can get rich, off of the poor, and rarely, if ever, give anything FROM the Rich, TO the poor. (Think for a moment... Capatalism funnels billions of dollars in to space exploration. More money than it would take to feed every Man Woman and Child who lives in that Capatilistic society.)

That's not inherent in Capitalism, however. The free market system merely allows those who have produced something of value to sell it to anyone who wants to buy it. I am always disappointed when I read that Capitalism is supposed to be all the things you say, when Communism does exactly the same thing! In fact, ANY economic system does such things so long as humans get to play a part in them!

But if that is so, at least Capitalism allows you to go into business and own your own property. Communism doesn't do that and yet retains every "wrong" that you think you see in Capitalism. Communism does not distribute the wealth fairly or equally. Communism does more polluting of the environment than Capitalism. And Communism is less productive than free systems, meaning that the standard of living is less for everyone but the dictators.

I am in no way advocating Marxian Communism. But calling capitalism itself a blessing, seems a bit left field to my understanding.

Freedom is always preferable to slavery, and for that reason, I'd agree that it's a blessing. Most people in world history have not known freedom. In addition, Capitalism brought the Western nations the highest standard of living in world history, which seems worthy of a term like "blessing." At least I'd think so. When one has the benefits of free enterprise and Democracy it's easy to talk as thought it doesn't mean much, but live without it, and you find out the facts real quick.

 

[Sphinx777]

Capitalism typically refers to an economic and social system in which the means of production (also known as capital) are privately controlled; labor, goods and capital are traded in a market; profits are distributed to owners or invested in new technologies and industries; and wages are paid to labor.

The extent to which different markets are free, as well as rules determining what may and may not be private property, is a matter of politics and policy, and many states have what are termed "mixed economies."

Capitalism as a system developed incrementally from the 16th century in Europe and England, although some features of capitalist organization existed in the ancient world, and early aspects of merchant capitalism flourished during the Late Middle Ages. Capitalism has been dominant in the Western world since the end of feudalism. Capitalism gradually spread throughout Europe, and in the 19th and 20th centuries, it provided the main means of industrialization throughout much of the world.

There is no consensus on capitalism nor how it should be used as an analytical category. There are a variety of historical cases over which it is applied, varying in time, geography, politics and culture. Economists, political economists and historians have taken different perspectives on the analysis of capitalism.

Economists usually put emphasis on the market mechanism, degree of government control over markets (laissez faire), and property rights, while most political economists emphasize private property, power relations, wage labor, and class. Neither is there universal agreement on whether capitalism is ultimately beneficial for societies or whether it is destructive, resulting in political advocacy both for and against capitalism.

 

[Uphill Battle]

That's not inherent in Capitalism, however.

sure it is. Our entire systems is that of rich getting richer, and poor getting poorer.

The free market system merely allows those who have produced something of value to sell it to anyone who wants to buy it. I am always disappointed when I read that Capitalism is supposed to be all the things you say, when Communism does exactly the same thing!

indeed, the communisim that we've seen has done WORSE. But again, I'm not talking about the twisted, corrupt version that has been on display. TRUE communism, (and that word is where people have trouble) would be all working equally, all sharing equally. That is no great evil! The great evil of communism, is that they did NOT all work/share equally.

In fact, ANY economic system does such things so long as humans get to play a part in them!

agreed.

But if that is so, at least Capitalism allows you to go into business and own your own property.

provided, of course, you hae either free capital with which do do so, or choose to pay obscene usuary to obtain it.

Communism doesn't do that and yet retains every "wrong" that you think you see in Capitalism. Communism does not distribute the wealth fairly or equally. Communism does more polluting of the environment than Capitalism. And Communism is less productive than free systems, meaning that the standard of living is less for everyone but the dictators.

I agree. The communism that has been perpetrated, has done such things. But that logic is kind of like "that shoe has mud on it, so ours must be clean" and it (pardon the pun) doesn't wash.

Freedom is always preferable to slavery, and for that reason, I'd agree that it's a blessing.

Freedom to what exactly? Work for someone else to make them richer, while accepting crumbs from the table as payment? Risk family and finances, to attempt to do it yourself, when those who "support" you take money from you? (banks, lenders, etc...)

Most people in world history have not known freedom. In addition, Capitalism brought the Western nations the highest standard of living in world history, which seems worthy of a term like "blessing."

I think that's more because we got used to our creature comforts, than anything else. You say that we've been brought to the highest level of living standard, yet we still aren't satisfied. If we're the richest countries in the world, how come so many of our countrymen go to bed without food in their stomach? (provided, of course, they have a bed to go to.)

At least I'd think so. When one has the benefits of free enterprise and Democracy it's easy to talk as thought it doesn't mean much, but live without it, and you find out the facts real quick.

I agree that democratic process is far superior to USSR style communism. That isn't the point. I'm not talking about democratic process. Democratic process and communism would not be at odds, if done correctly.

Again, I point at the first century Christians. They lived in "communism." They worked, and shared all they owned. It is corruption that is the problem, not the mindset.

 

[Albion]

sure it is. Our entire systems is that of rich getting richer, and poor getting poorer.

Well, for starters, "our" system has not been Capitalism or Free Enterprise for some time, so if you want to represent what's happening in North America in our lifetimes, you'll have to find another culprit. But free enterprise benefits the smaller businesses and poorer people no less than it does the better off. The poor in our society would be wealthy in non-"Capitalist" societies.

indeed, the communisim that we've seen has done WORSE. But again, I'm not talking about the twisted, corrupt version that has been on display. TRUE communism, (and that word is where people have trouble) would be all working equally, all sharing equally. That is no great evil! The great evil of communism, is that they did NOT all work/share equally.

And that is a theory only. It doesn't exist, never has existed, and never will exist. So of course it's easy to compare real life with a dream society and say that the dream is better on paper.

provided, of course, you have either free capital with which do do so, or choose to pay obscene usuary to obtain it.

Usury is illegal in our society. I have to insist that any evaluation of our system be accurate before deciding how well it does. That aside, "Captitalism" or what you think we have now and are calling by that name, does not apply only to those in business for themselves. It also applies to the employees who do not choose to be entrepreneurs.

The communism that has been perpetrated, has done such things. But that logic is kind of like "that shoe has mud on it, so ours must be clean" and it (pardon the pun) doesn't wash.

I never said anything of the sort. I pointed out that ours has much less mud on it, not that it MUST have less just because the Communists are covered in it.

Freedom to what exactly? Work for someone else to make them richer, while accepting crumbs from the table as payment? Risk family and finances, to attempt to do it yourself, when those who "support" you take money from you? (banks, lenders, etc...)

I believe you when you say you are not an advocate for Marxist Communism, but you've sure bought every one of it's propaganda claims. Could you possibly work the The Little Match Girl and Tiny Tim into your description of the free enterprise system in order to juice the story up a bit more?

I think that's more because we got used to our creature comforts, than anything else. You say that we've been brought to the highest level of living standard, yet we still aren't satisfied. If we're the richest countries in the world, how come so many of our countrymen go to bed without food in their stomach? (provided, of course, they have a bed to go to.)

How many do? Of course, you don't know but it sounds good to say, doesn't it? The point is that FEWER go to bed hungry here than under controlled economic systems. Surely, you are not asking us to evalutate our system by comparing it to perfection rather than to other economic systems...or are you? You've already asked that we not compare Communism to an ideal society--although it promises to give the people that perfection--yet "Capitalism" is supposed to be compared to a perfect society? That doesn't make sense.

I agree that democratic process is far superior to USSR style communism. That isn't the point. I'm not talking about democratic process. Democratic process and communism would not be at odds, if done correctly.

Of course it's the point. Capitalism and Democracy go hand in hand. You can't have Capitalism under Communism or any other kind of totalitarian system. And you can't compare apples and oranges, excusing Communism for not delivering on its promises by saying that there's some mythical "other" Communism, a Utopia, while at the same time not allowing Capitalism to be considered that way.

Again, I point at the first century Christians. They lived in "communism."

They most certainly did not.

They worked, and shared all they owned.

By definition that is NOT Communism. Communism is a system in which people are forced by the government to work and be paid (and everything else in life) as the rulers order, and for the purpose of redistributing the wealth. The early Christians VOLUNTARILY shared their possessions--and NOT for a materialistic reason. They did this as a part of their religious ideals. In no way were the early Christians communistic.

 

[ASquared]

ok, I think we can solve the issue of "true" communism just by a quick look at the Bible.

Acts 4:32-35 "32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had...34 There were no needy persons among them. From time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need."

This represents the ideal, as it was lived by the first Christians and it is, at it's heart, communism. It's not a mythical dream world ideal, but was truly lived, and it appears that they did quite well. All the basic elements are there, one controlling group (apostles), everyone gets a share as they have need. If anyone wants to call these people godless heathens, I'm sure many people will take issue, not just myself.

Now, our current understanding of communism is tainted by the harsh reality of the Soviet Union and Red China. We've seen how the system can go horribly wrong. Having said that, in this country, we see how a republican form of government can go horribly wrong. True, in the US we have the illusion of freedom, but that's all it is. An illusion set up to keep the sheep in the fold. I'll explain further in another thread, if anyones interested.

So, in general theory, I don't think there's anything wrong with communism. It was practiced by the first generation of disciples, which tells me that the current generation should be able to live like that as well. Now, we're talking here about believers, not the rest of the world.

What about the rest of the world? Who knows. Can it work for them? Probably not, because our human nature will always corrupt it. Believers can also corrupt it, we're not immune to sin, maybe even more prone to it. All in all, I guess what we should be is content with what we have.
​

 

[Albion]

ok, I think we can solve the issue of "true" communism just by a quick look at the Bible.

Acts 4:32-35 "32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had...34 There were no needy persons among them. From time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need."

This represents the ideal, as it was lived by the first Christians and it is, at it's heart, communism.
​

It is not Communism as the word is normally used and as it was used earlier in this thread.

It might be called communtarianism, communalism, Christian socialism, or someting else, perhaps even communism, with a small 'c' -- if we are very sure not to confuse it with the political movement of modern times.

The political movement is Atheistic and materialistic in nature and intention; the Christians certainly were motivated by spiritual ideals.


The political movement is a totalitarian form of government; the Christians acted voluntarily.


I'd suggest that if anyone wants to continue this thread, referring to "Communism" or "communism," he ought not use the word if he is intending to speak of early Christianity...or monks, for that matter. When the discussion is about political or economic matters, however, we DO know what is meant.


​

 

[Memento Mori]

The Christian worldview does not embrace communism because communism does not understand human nature as Christianity does. Communism is flawed from the start because it says what is wrong with humanity is class struggle. Christianity tells us that what is wrong with humanity is original sin. If you do not understand the problem, you will not be able to correct it.