Is there really a 1000 year reign ?

[FreeinChrist]

Thanks FreeinChrist for your reply.

But as hard as I try, I cannot find in any of these Scriptures from Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 where it is written that the day of the Lord, the Second Coming of Christ, is a thousand years.

Well, I guess you won't then. I do see it, and especially when I also look at Zechariah, too...and include II Peter in showing that the Day of the Lord includes the eents at the end of the 1000 years.
The Day of the Lord is not a 24 hour hour period.

The events in the book of Revelation cannot be in chronological order.

No, it isn't all in chronological order except in how the vision was given to John. There are parenthetical passages that take us out of order of how the events occur....but I think it is important to place in chronological order what the text presents as chronological.

For instance, Revelation 14:1 has Jesus standing on Mount Zion with the 144,000 Jews when the bowls are still yet to come in chapter 16 and his return in chapter 19.

And where is Mt. Zion? I see it as in heaven.....and that at some point the 144,000 were martyred by the beast.

Revelation 11:15-19 states that Jesus has now received the kingdom and begun to reign, that the time for the dead to be judged has come, and that it is time to destroy those who destroy the earth. All of these are events which take place after the Tribulation.

Yep - the announcement is made at the 7th trumpet. However, the verb tense (aorist) for the things listed to be done used does not give the time of the action. It isn't saying that it is happening right then. I believe it signifies a change in the Tribulation into the severe 42 month reign of teror of the AC, and that the war in heaven occurs at that time.

Revelation 7:15-17 seems to depict eternity (compare to 21:3-7).

Yep - one of those parenthetical passages. I see it as a calling out of 144,000 to witness for God during the Tribulation....and vision of those who will come to Christ during the Tribulation.

Revelation 10:7 states that with the seventh trumpet "the mystery of God is finished."

Already addressed that in regards to the announcement. Have you thought what the mystery is? Could it be that there should be no more doubt as to His being...and that people will have to choose one way or the other - as in take the mark and worhip the beast or do not and die?

Revelation 14:17-20 describes the harvest by the angels which Jesus said would take place at the "end of the age" (Matt. 13:39).

As I believe the "end of the age" was at the beginning of the Tribulation, I also see a harvest starting with the rapture of the living/resurrection of the dead in Christ...continued on in the events fo the Tribulation in which one must choose one way or the other. I don't believe that Rev. 14 shows a Second Coming of Christ.
And 14 is parenthetical to boot.

Both 14:8 and 18:2 describe the fall of Babylon as if it has just taken place.

17 and 18 are parenthetical and gives a furthur explaination of the fall of Babylon. I don't beleive Babylon is the kingdom of the AC, but a false religion and economic system that helps bring the AC to power. It falls before the Second Coming. So, I don't see the problem.

Revelation 6:12-14 describes the great cosmic signs which Jesus said would take place "after the tribulation" (Matt. 24:29). And both 6:14 and 16:20 describe the disappearance of all mountains and islands.

No, actually the two descriptions are not identical at all.

Rev 6:12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth {made} of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;

Rev 6:13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.

Rev 6:14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains;

Rev 6:16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;

Rev 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"


Rev 16:17 Then the seventh {angel} poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done."

Rev 16:18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake {was it, and} so mighty.

Rev 16:19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Rev 16:21 And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, *came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague *was extremely severe.


Compare:
6: "every mountain and island were moved out of their places."
16: "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."
Not the same.

6:"there was a great earthquake"
16: "there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake {was it, and} so mighty."
Not the same.

6 - has the sun, moon stars mentioned - 16 does not. And note the difference with Matthew 24:
Mat 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken"
Rev. 6 - "the sun became black as sackcloth {made} of hair, and the whole moon became like blood;"
Matthew 24: "THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT"

Not give light as opposed to being red like blood. Not the same. Jesus is quoting Isaiah 13:9-13 and this could apply to His Second Coming, which Jesus says occurs at that time. Rev. 16 already has the kingdom of the AC darkened in the fifth vial - and the moon isn't red.


16: huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, *came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God
6:and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us..."
Not the same.


As you are apparently amillennial, tell me when was Satan bound, and sealed in the pit so that he was unable to deceive the nations? When has there been a time in history that Satan was unable to deceive?

 

[FreeinChrist]

Perhaps I misunderstood Steve's post. But it certainly appears to me that he was describing the Premillennium view using Jewish sages and extra-biblical writings to prove this view. If that is not the case, I am truly sorry for my misunderstanding and would appreciate clarification.

Actually there was a view that as God created the world in 6 days and rested the 7th, then thee would be 7000 years to the world. The view that the day of rest was yet to be is discussed in Hebrews, which Steve quoted. The origin of premillennialism, though is Rev. 20. From what I can see, it is the earliest view of the church. Justin Martyr (120 - 170 AD) clearly states it in his Dialogue with Trypho. and we know that Papias, Victorinus and Irenaeus were 'chiliasts' (premil) as well as others. What I don't see before Augustine ( or Origen) is a clearly stated view that the 1000 years is symbolic or allegorical.

The Epistle of Barnabus is a Christian work - though not from the Barnabus of Paul and Barnabus.

 

[ShirleyFord]

Actually there was a view that as God created the world in 6 days and rested the 7th, then thee would be 7000 years to the world. The view that the day of rest was yet to be is discussed in Hebrews, which Steve quoted. The origin of premillennialism, though is Rev. 20. From what I can see, it is the earliest view of the church. Justin Martyr (120 - 170 AD) clearly states it in his Dialogue with Trypho. and we know that Papias, Victorinus and Irenaeus were 'chiliasts' (premil) as well as others. What I don't see before Augustine ( or Origen) is a clearly stated view that the 1000 years is symbolic or allegorical.

The Epistle of Barnabus is a Christian work - though not from the Barnabus of Paul and Barnabus.

Therefore it certainly appears to me that Steve was describing the Premillennium view using Jewish sages and extra-biblical writings to prove this view. And it appears that you are agreeing with him.

The Epistle of Barnabas is a medieval document claiming to be an account of the life of Jesus. It displays a distinctly Muslim bias, and purports to show that Jesus was not the Son of God, nor the Messiah. The document is generally regarded by most scholars as a forgery.

 

[Markea]

Forcably removing the original receivers of that revelation from any application is what's sad, especially in light of the clear scriptural testimony to the contrary.

Your claim that the Revelation of Jesus Christ was not FOR those Christians who FIRST received it dosen't hold up under any sober scrutiny.

When did I ever claim that the LIVING and ABIDING Word of God was not for those who first received it..? Let me say that again.. the WORD OF GOD is LIVING and ABIDING... IT IS NOT some static historical document that preterists want it to be..

The Revelation (or revealing) of Jesus Christ is prophetic in many ways.. and one of them (Rev 19) describes His coming with all His saints..taking the beast and his false prophet and throwing them into the lake of fire at that time.. if you believe that already happened... then so be it parousia..

How so?

Your question here is in reference to my saying that you make the word of God of no effect... to your insisting that satan is bound and unable to deceive the nations..

AND.. the reason is that I quoted scripture from three Apostles who clearly show us that satan is not bound and unable to deceive... Peter, Paul, and John as a matter of fact... AND YOUR COMMENTS WERE... "Since the apostles lived and wrote in the age that preceeded the one we live in, your argument is moot".

So as mentioned.. you make the LIVING and ABIDING WORD OF GOD of no effect by saying it was written in an age preceeding the one in which we live.. everything is moot except what you preterists believe...as you reduce the LIVING and ABIDING WORD OF GOD to a static lifeless history book..

Again I challenge you to show me one single nation on earth today that does not have at least one Christian citizen.

You can't.

In contrast, prior to the apostolic generation, all nations were kept from the light of Christ, deceived by Satan.

If this is the basis for your claim that nations are not deceived today...then so be it.. and I'll give you a little pointer... FAITH is traced all the way back to Abel in the scriptures... before there were any nations... and there are many accounts of Gentiles having FAITH in God even after Israel came on the scene.. although I'm sure this is all moot to you parousia..

Political strife is of no eternal consiquence, but If you must judge Christ's current power over the earth by the newspapers instead of scripture, I can't help you.

Ok, I'm sure this is precisely how the KING of kings and LORD of lords WANTS everything to be... I guess it kind of reflects how we see CHRIST, doesn't it.

To assert that Christ is NOT the King over ALL the earth TODAY, currently reigning in FULL power and authority is simply blasphemous.

I'll assert what the scriptures teach me... and they teach me that the god of this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe the gospel during these times of the Gentiles... while the LORD is taking a people for His name (CHRISTians) and building His church.. The scriptures assert that He is sitting on the right hand of God and WAITING til His enemies be made His footstool.. the scriptures assert that WE SEE NOT YET ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET, but that we see Jesus... BY FAITH...

I'm sure that all of these scriptural assertions are moot to you preterists though parousia.. so I'll got back to saying that it's truly pointless to debate these things with you... because that's all you'll say.. that it's moot.

Scripture makes the assertion, my responsibility is to bring my view in line with the clear scriptural testimony.

Jesus Christ is the Current ruler over this present heaven and earth, and we Christians who make up his body currently share in that dominion. It's high time we started acting like it.

I just shared some scriptural assertions which will most likely be disregarded as moot... but just for the record... there are those in Christendom who do sit in their self appointed seats of authority...claiming that these present times are the millennial kingdom of Christ... and you dare speak of blasphemy..?

Jesus Said so:

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

What I can't figure out is why you would even dare argue against that claim?

Scripture continues in that testimony:

Eph 1: 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.

All biblical expectations of the ever-expanding dominion of God's kingdom and righteousness on earth are carried out by, in, and through Christ and His Church (Isaiah 9:6-7; Daniel 7:27; Lk 1:33; Eph 3:9-11,21; Heb 12:27-28; Matt 21:43; Titus 2:14; Rev 5:9-10; Rev 2:26; Matt 25:21). The Church is the very Body of Christ, the "fullness of Him that fills all in all" (Eph 1:22-23). As St Paul wrote, "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever" (Eph 3:21).

Quite simply, All power in heaven and earth belongs to Christ and his people (Matt 28:18-19; Matt 16:18-19).

To argue otherwise (as you do) makes a mockery of everything Christ has wrought through His Birth, Life, Death and Resurrection.

Not one person here in this thread has denied Christ's authority and power.. not one.. although the scriptures teach us clearly that He is building His church, by those who have FAITH (things unseen) in His authority.. that He is taking out of the Gentiles a people for His name...again.. CHRISTians.. and doing this through those who come to Him through FAITH... trusting in HIM... the UNSEEN...

AGAIN... the scriptures tell us plainly that during these times.. the devil WALKS ABOUT as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour... that the whole world lieth in wickedness...that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers..against the rulers of the darkness of THIS WORLD... against spiritual wickedness in high places...

But I know parousia.. that's all moot to you and to your preterist mind... and so you would rather call the DARKNESS of THIS WORLD... the millennial kingdom of Christ...

And that my friend is sheer mockery...

 

[FreeinChrist]

Therefore it certainly appears to me that Steve was describing the Premillennium view using Jewish sages and extra-biblical writings to prove this view. And it appears that you are agreeing with him.
.

I don't necessarily agree with the 7000 years theory. I DO beleive there is a 1000 year earthly reign that is followed by the judgment and an eternal reign in the new heavens and earth.

But let's look at what he referenced:
G-d could have created everything in an instant.

Psa 33:6-9
Exo 20:11
Gen 1:1
Gen 1:15-16
Mal 4:2
Gen 1:27
Gen 2:2
Psa 90:4
2 Pet 3:8-10

Heb 4:4- 11



Then:
Talmud
The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches:
The Epistle of Barnabas

The Secrets of Enoch, Chapter 33

The Epistle of Barnabas is a medieval document claiming to be an account of the life of Jesus. It displays a distinctly Muslim bias, and purports to show that Jesus was not the Son of God, nor the Messiah. The document is generally regarded by most scholars as a forgery

Actually it was written about 100 AD, 500 years before Mohammed was ever born. It isn't an account of the life of Jesus at all. Perhaps you are thinking of a different book. The Epistle of Barnabus can be read here:
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-41.htm#P3130_520749
Chapter III has this:
"Then He manifested Himself to be the Son of God. For if He had not come in the flesh, how could men have been saved by beholding Him?42 Since looking upon the sun which is to cease to exist, and is the work of His hands, their eyes are not able to bear his rays. The Son of God therefore came in the flesh with this view, that He might bring to a head the sum of their sins who had persecuted His prophets43 to the death. For this purpose, then, He endured."

 

[NumberOneSon]

The Epistle of Barnabas is a medieval document claiming to be an account of the life of Jesus. It displays a distinctly Muslim bias, and purports to show that Jesus was not the Son of God, nor the Messiah. The document is generally regarded by most scholars as a forgery.

Are you thinking along the lines of the Gospel of the Nazarene? That is supposed to be an account of the life of Jesus going back to his childhood. However, it displays a Far Eastern bias, not Muslim, and it goes into a lot of other wacky stuff.

As Free stated, the EoB has nothing to do with the life of Christ. The author does have some harsh words to say about the Jews, but that doesn't equate as Muslim bias.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I don't necessarily agree with the 7000 years theory. I DO beleive there is a 1000 year earthly reign that is followed by the judgment and an eternal reign in the new heavens and earth.

But let's look at what he referenced:
G-d could have created everything in an instant.

Psa 33:6-9
Exo 20:11
Gen 1:1
Gen 1:15-16
Mal 4:2
Gen 1:27
Gen 2:2
Psa 90:4
2 Pet 3:8-10

Heb 4:4- 11



Then:
Talmud
The Tanna debe Eliyyahu teaches:
The Epistle of Barnabas

The Secrets of Enoch, Chapter 33



Actually it was written about 100 AD, 500 years before Mohammed was ever born. It isn't an account of the life of Jesus at all. Perhaps you are thinking of a different book. The Epistle of Barnabus can be read here:
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-41.htm#P3130_520749
Chapter III has this:
"Then He manifested Himself to be the Son of God. For if He had not come in the flesh, how could men have been saved by beholding Him?42 Since looking upon the sun which is to cease to exist, and is the work of His hands, their eyes are not able to bear his rays. The Son of God therefore came in the flesh with this view, that He might bring to a head the sum of their sins who had persecuted His prophets43 to the death. For this purpose, then, He endured."

The seven weeks of earth, as thousands, is a view rooted in biblical history; but it can stop counting, and start again -it seems- for the nation of Israel doesn't count all the years of earth history, as recorded, neglecting those years of slavery in Egypt -or some such thing- for they only count this as year 5765 since creation.

The actual days may be more, as they can don't go by earth's rotation around the sun but in the work the LORD is doing on this earth for redemption, and especially, through the nation of Israel's restoration; the counting can start and stop -as seen in Israel's last week until Messiah reigns over the earth, as from the book of Daniel.
The only way to understand the sign of circumcision is in the complete cutting off of Adam's seed from the regenerated heavens and earth in the eighth day, the day of the new beginning, and then understanding the adoption of all who are redeemed in the adoption of Isreal into the New name, Israel, as being the new name of the redeemed for eternity.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Dear Shirley,

Enoch is not a Jewish sage.
Peter was using Enoch's writings, and so was Jude, and so was the LORD Jesus -and of course, the evil spirits that Jesus cast out quoted from the Book of Enoch.

The book of Enoch was used along with the Septuagent in the time of Christ, and Jude, Peter, Jesus, and the evil spirits that JEsus cast out quoted from it.

Job quoted from it, and so did satan allude to it, in Job.


The ancient Jews understood that the earth was to have seven thousand years before the new beginning. That is how Peter knew that the Day of the LORD began as a thief in the night and ended with the melting of the elements and the regeneration of this present heavens and earth and the new heavens and earth being formed from the same elements.

Job knew that His redeemer lived and was God and the he would be resurrected in his flesh and see Him with his own eyes and that He would stand on the earth in the 'last day'; which 'last day' is that great and glorious Sabbath Day for this earth.

Jesus promised to raise from the dead those who believed in Him 'at' the 'last Day'; which resurrection of the dead in Christ from the dust and the 'laqach' of the Church begins the 'last Day' of the one thousand years of the Sabbath rest of 'thousands' of this present earth.

The sign of circumcision is the sign given to Abraham and his seed as a living oracle to show that all the seed of Adam will be 'cut off' in the eighth day -of thousands, of course, as earth has to have her Sabbath, the seventh thousand, first, which is the 'last day' of this present earth.

Jeasus Christ came at the beginning of the 'fourth day' of this present creation, of thousands, and that was the beginning of the 'last days' of this earth, with only 'three' more to go, of thousands, before this earth and heavens are melted and regenerated; and it is acounted as in a regular week: for the beginning of the week, the middle and the end are all spoken of in normal conversation and historical writings, along with first day and last day of the week.

In Hosea, the fact of the nation of Israel being cut off for two thousand years and raised up in the third thousand is plain -to those who read history and the Word.

It is Israel that he has torn and who as a nation is speaking in this chapter -no other- for the theme of Hosea is Israel's redemption:

Hosea 6
Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth."

Israel has been raised up as a nation again -and 'on the third day' -the 'last day' of this earth's thousands, Israel will be restored as the kingdom of the Lord, again, for the millennial reign.

Hello Shirley,
Are you ignoring my post to you?

Since thinking upon what I wrote -quoted above- I remembered a few more things that are found in Enoch that are quoted in the Bible; one is Paul's statement that we are to judge angels, only found in the book of Enoch -and it goes on and on, with more and more being found in Scriptures that are from the book of Enoch, as chapter four of Malachi -and passages in Isaiah.

While the book of Enoch was read and used and quoted from in the Old and New testaments, it was not used from the Roman Catholic church's dispensing of it -for obvious reasons -in the fourth century, (and they even came to outlaw the Bible) even though the 'supposed' early Church father's quoted from it extensively.

The copies we now have, have had as much messing round with them as the Bible itself has, and the only way to prove what is original is to see what the earliest copies said; which the dead sea scrolls helps with, as to the book of Enoch; for the copies found there were used at the tiome Jesus walked this earth, and what was quoted from it is validated in the Old and New Testaments -and who has done a study to compare all the quotations, anyway, from both Testaments that are directly from the book of Enoch?

It speaks of the tribulation and the final Day of Peace and of the judgment and the wicked being cast off this earth before the reign of Peace, and finally brought forth and cast into the burning pit -which is the outer darkness- forever.

 

[Angel of God]

A millennium is a limited period.
It surely concerns a temporal Reign.
I think that John have told us his years
in a material Heaven.

 

[parousia70]

When did I ever claim that the LIVING and ABIDING Word of God was not for those who first received it..?

You argue, by extention, that the Revelation of Jesus Christ was not applicable to those who first received it, by arguing that it decribes events ordained to come to pass thousands of years after thier lifetime.

If that is true, how could it apply to them at all?

Please describe in what way(s) it was applicable to them.
Try to be as specific as possible.

me say that again.. the WORD OF GOD is LIVING and ABIDING... IT IS NOT some static historical document that preterists want it to be..

Is the Genesis account Historical?
Is the Flood account Historical?
Is the account of Jesus Birth Historical?
Is the Crusifixion Historical?

Do you consider those scriptures "Static, Lifeless History" and "of no effect today" since they describe past events that will never be repeated, or are you looking for a future Genesis or a future flood, future virgin Birth? Future Crusifixion???

What exactly are you arguing here?
Why does believing a Biblical event to be historical render it "lifeless and of no effect" to you?

AND.. the reason is that I quoted scripture from three Apostles who clearly show us that satan is not bound and unable to deceive... Peter, Paul, and John as a matter of fact...

All they clearly show is that at the time those scriuptures were written, Satan was unbound. You have failed once again to prove those exhortations mean the same today as they did 1900+ years ago.
But I'll keep giving you the opportunity to do so.

So as mentioned.. you make the LIVING and ABIDING WORD OF GOD of no effect by saying it was written in an age preceeding the one in which we live.. everything is moot except what you preterists believe...as you reduce the LIVING and ABIDING WORD OF GOD to a static lifeless history book..

See my previous answer/question above re: lifeless history, as it directly applies.

Not one person here in this thread has denied Christ's authority and power.. not one..

You deny the Church's authority, and since the Church is Christ's Body, "that filleth all in all" you deny Christ's authority. You can't have Christ as currently ruling and reigning over the earth simultainously with Christ's Body being under the authority of Satan. Yet you do.

AGAIN... the scriptures tell us plainly that during these times.. the devil WALKS ABOUT as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour...

I have bolded your Unsubstantiated assumption.

Scripture plainly tells us no such thing about "these times". You are only assuming it does.

Can you Prove those scriptures apply to "these times"?

Again I assert that you choose not to see Christ's current victory because it isn't at this time "universal", shared by all people.

I assert it never will be.

How can you assume that such great and complete victory over Satan, the historic adversary of the saints, will EVER come upon any but the Chosen?

Those outside of the blessedness of the New Jerusalem have not entered into the victory of Christ in any way whatsoever but remain in and of the darkness and unchanged by Christ's victory. We see these ones depicted in Revelation 22:14-15 as standing right outside of our Heavenly City. These are they that defile and work their abominations and lies and "in no way shall they enter" in through the gates to our New Heavenly Jerusalem (Rev 21:27). In contrast, "blessed are they that wash their robes" that they may enter in through the gates into the New Jerusalem.

For sure, the gospel of the Kingdom must be received for the damned to be released out of their satanic darkness and enter in to the light and victory of Christ and the Church. Only by receiving the gospel of the Kingdom do men "wash their robes" and enter into the Heavenly Jerusalem . This great victory and power over darkness only comes to the Chosen. The preaching of the gospel of the Kingdom serves to "open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God that they may receive forgiveness of sins and inheritance among them who are sanctified" (Acts 26:18). This so clearly shows us that the victory of moving from darkness to light, from Satan's power to God's power, from unforgiveness with God to forgiveness with God, from non-inheritance to full inheritance, is a victory for those that are "sanctified by faith that is in him [Christ]." Does such blessedness apply in any form to anyone but the Chosen? "He that believeth not is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (Jn 3:19). For sure, those that rejected Christ and his Kingdom were fully joined to the rest of the unbelieving in outer darkness (Matt 8:12). In contrast, Jesus said, "he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life" (John 8:12). This blessedness and victory over Satan and darkness has already come upon the saints of light of the New Jerusalem, Yet for some reason you deny it.

Just as the Chosen on the earth have full unity with Light and heaven, so also do the lost maintain full unity with darkness and hell until they should get their robes washed in the blood of the Lamb and enter into the New Heavenly Jerusalem . Satan's being made of no effect by the completed atonement on behalf of the saints does not necessitate non-existence. Rather, Rev 14:10 shows Satan being tormented in the presence of the Lamb and the Angels, in whose presence are also all the blessed saints (Hebrews 12:22-24). Satan's identity is the same as it was from the beginning: he is described as a liar and murderer and a thief who robs and destroys. He is darkness and is of the darkness. His evil is fully present in all the dogs and sorcerers and murderers of Revelation 22:15 who remain immediately outside of the gates of the Heavenly Jerusalem. Like their master, they defile and work abominations and make lies, and in no way do they enter into our New Jerusalem without having their robes washed by the blood of the Lamb (Rev 21:27). These are they who do not have Christ. Their only escape from full communion with Satan and the outer darkness is through God's regeneration via the gospel of the Kingdom (Acts 26:18). Only then can they share in the dominion over darkness now fully possessed and exercised by Christ and the Church.

According to scripture,The existance of "dogs, sorcerers and murderers" in this world in no way negates Christ and the Church's current rule and reign over this world, yet you argue exactly the opposite, thereby making Christ's work on the cross "lifeless, historical and of no effect".

 

[Markea]

parousia,

Rather than go back and forth.. just go ahead and continue to embrace the doctrine of amillennialsim and keep your preterist pov.. it's really fine with me and your mind is clearly made up.. so what's the point..?

Have at it..

I will say in closing that amillennialist doctrine basically can not distinguish the darkness of this world from the Day of the Lord.. ie, they believe that this is the Day of Christ, the millennial kingdom.. even while the living and abiding word of God teaches us that there are principalities and powers, spiritual wickedness in high places.. that there are rulers of the darkness of this world.. etc etc

John tells us that the whole world lieth in wickedness.. and yet multitudes continue to preach and teach that this is the millennial kingdom of Christ..

the DAY of the Lord..

I would say that there is no greater mockery toward our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ than that itself..

But hey.. again.. all you amillennialists have at it.. you're in company with the masses of catholicism and all of the others who can't tell the Day from the night..

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Parousia,
This is the age
the very same age
the age of the Gentiles being brought into the klingdom of God

the age that will not end, until-

the LORD Jesus Christ returns in glory as Son of Man; like lightning. Seen by every eye in heaven and in earth and under the earth

that John received the Revelation of , which is to come.

Then 'this generation shall pass away': 'this generation' of the wicked seed growing on this earth with the godly seed, with the righteous seed, the one generation that the Creator is seeking of sons, the fruit of this earth brought forth to Him for His glory; and the Sun of Righteousness shall reign over all the earth ,from Jerusalem, when He thouroughly winnows out all the chaff from His purchased possession and reigns gloriously in Jerusalem.

 

[FreeinChrist]

You argue, by extention, that the Revelation of Jesus Christ was not applicable to those who first received it, by arguing that it decribes events ordained to come to pass thousands of years after thier lifetime.

If that is true, how could it apply to them at all?

Since the Revelation of Jesus Christ was not given until 96 AD - how could it all apply to those who lived in the 60's AD and not apply to others?

It is prophecy, parousia. Prophecy does not need to immediately occur.
Example: Genesis 3:15 - the first prophecy of the Messiah, the seed of the woman. The piercing of the heel (crucifixtion) occurred about 3000 -4000 years later, at least.


"Is the Genesis account Historical?" Yep - not prophecy. We are told of it AFTER the fact.
"Is the Flood account Historical?" - Yep - not prophecy. We are told of it AFTER the fact.
"Is the account of Jesus Birth Historical?" Yep! We see fulfilled prophecy of the OT and it is presented in the NT as historical - not prophecy.
"Is the Crusifixion Historical?" Yep. It was prophesied in the OT...and thousands of years later from the first prophecy, it came true. In the NT, it is given as a hsitorical event - not prophecy.

"What exactly are you arguing here?" Good question to ask you. I don't think you are making the points you are trying for.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I have bolded your Unsubstantiated assumption.

Scripture plainly tells us no such thing about "these times". You are only assuming it does.

Actually, parousia, we are told in New Testament - post crucifixition - that Satan is a roaring lion:

1Pe 5:8 Be of sober {spirit,} be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.1Pe 5:9 But resist him, firm in {your} faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.
It applies in Peters time when he wrote it (60's AD) and applies now. It is you who would create a difference between the Christians pre70 AD and those post 70 AD. Following your reasoning, most of the exhortations in the NT don't apply to us at all.
Like this:
1Pe 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

The Second Coming hasn't happened yet, parousia.

And then the exhortation to arm ourselves with spiritual armor wouldn't apply either...and much more.

Creating such a difference between the Christians of pre70 AD and post 70's AD is one of the hallmarks of full preterism.

Again I assert that you choose not to see Christ's current victory because it isn't at this time "universal", shared by all people.

Christ reigns victorious over His church...but this is still applicable:
Hbr 10:12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

Hbr 10:13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.

 

[parousia70]

parousia,

Rather than go back and forth......

Don't You mean, 'rather than attempt a sober rebuttal'?

You can make those your "closing thoughts" to me if you wish, but our readers can see through you smokescreen right to your unwillingness, or worse yet inability to offer any sort of sober, scriptural rebuttal to my demonstration.

just go ahead and continue to embrace the doctrine of amillennialsim and keep your preterist pov.. it's really fine with me and your mind is clearly made up.. so what's the point..?

Iron sharpens iron, But I guess that scripture is "lifeless and of no value" to you.

I will say in closing that amillennialist doctrine basically can not distinguish the darkness of this world from the Day of the Lord.. ie,

Rather, As I previuosly demonstrated, Postmils and amils recognize and embrace the current, permanent victory the Body of Christ has inherited, resulting in full unity with light and heaven, as well as the current, permament unity the lost have with Hell and Satan.

There will always be both groups, existing for eternity.
Unless you are universalist or annihilationist.

Anyway, I doubt those were your last words with/for me, But I'm willing to take your word for it.

You haven't given me reason not to assume you are a man of your word.

We'll see......

 

[parousia70]

Parousia,
This is the age
the very same age
the age of the Gentiles being brought into the klingdom of God

Really?
When did it begin?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Really?
When did it begin?

Hello parousia,
The Church age began at Pentecost and ends at the 'laqach' of it at the beginning of the Day of the LORD at the beginning of the seven years of the great tribulation.

This age that shall come to an end when the Messiah sets up His kingdom and this generation that shall pass away began in Genesis 3:15.

At the harvest, there are only two generations produced from this earth; the wicked and the righteous, and both will be harvested, the wicked sent into the lake of fire, and the righteous glorified as sons of God forever.

Psalm 37 speaks of the wicked being removed from this earth and the righteous inheriting it.

When the disciples asked Jesus when this age would end and His coming would be, they were speaking from the Messianic promises of the destruction of the wicked from the earth at the return of the Mesasiah to set up His promised righteous reign over the earth.

'This generation will not pass away until- -just as the wicked were caught by the flood so this generation will be caught and snared and taken away.

The tares will be gathered and sent into the furnace of fire at completion of first harvest time, at the end of the seven years of tribulation, and this age will pass and the Messianic Age of Peace will reign.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Don't You mean, 'rather than attempt a sober rebuttal'?

You can make those your "closing thoughts" to me if you wish, but our readers can see through you smokescreen right to your unwillingness, or worse yet inability to offer any sort of sober, scriptural rebuttal to my demonstration.

This reader sees your very obvious attempt to bait.

 

[parousia70]

Hello parousia,
The Church age began at Pentecost .....

If that is true, then what age were the disciples asking Jesus about here?:

Matt 24:3
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

As I understand it, it had to be the same age Jesus called "This age" here:

Matt 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Now, based strictly on your calculations about the beginning of the "christian age", The age Jesus called "this age" in Matt 12:32, and the age the disciples asked about in Matt 24:3 could not be the "Christian age", but must have been the age that preceeded the Christian age, which you say began at pentacost.

Would you care now to ammend your calculation as to be beginning of the Christian age?

 

[parousia70]

Since the Revelation of Jesus Christ was not given until 96 AD - how could it all apply to those who lived in the 60's AD and not apply to others?

Ahhh Free.... I knew you couldn't stay away for long....

This entire thread I've been wondering which of my posts would finally be the one that pushed your button.

66 vs 96.
you know as well as I that this topic has been run into the ground here.
There is no concrete, undeniable PROOF for the exact date of the writing of Revelation.

If you want to start another thread to examine the evidences that exist, I'll happily chime in, but II won't be a party to your hijack attempt of this thread.

It is prophecy, parousia. Prophecy does not need to immediately occur.

Example: Genesis 3:15 - the first prophecy of the Messiah, the seed of the woman. The piercing of the heel (crucifixtion) occurred about 3000 -4000 years later, at least.

Agreed.

"Is the Genesis account Historical?" Yep - not prophecy. We are told of it AFTER the fact.
"Is the Flood account Historical?" - Yep - not prophecy. We are told of it AFTER the fact.
"Is the account of Jesus Birth Historical?" Yep! We see fulfilled prophecy of the OT and it is presented in the NT as historical - not prophecy.
"Is the Crusifixion Historical?" Yep. It was prophesied in the OT...and thousands of years later from the first prophecy, it came true. In the NT, it is given as a hsitorical event - not prophecy.

Please show me where the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem, which is given as PROPHESY in the NT, is ever spoken of "after the fact" in the NT.