Is there really a 1000 year reign ?

[frater]

Actually, parousia, we are told in New Testament - post crucifixition - that Satan is a roaring lion:

1Pe 5:8 Be of sober {spirit,} be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.1Pe 5:9 But resist him, firm in {your} faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world.
It applies in Peters time when he wrote it (60's AD) and applies now. It is you who would create a difference between the Christians pre70 AD and those post 70 AD. Following your reasoning, most of the exhortations in the NT don't apply to us at all.
Like this:
1Pe 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

The Second Coming hasn't happened yet, parousia.

And then the exhortation to arm ourselves with spiritual armor wouldn't apply either...and much more.

Creating such a difference between the Christians of pre70 AD and post 70's AD is one of the hallmarks of full preterism.


Christ reigns victorious over His church...but this is still applicable:
Hbr 10:12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

Hbr 10:13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.

A person may know beyond a shadow of a doubt when the Book of Revelation was written.

"and they are seven kings; the five are fallen, the one is, the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a little while."

Five are fallen: Nero Caesar was the fifth King. He reigned until A.D. 68

One is: It is clear that John received the Revelation in A.D. 68 or 69.

The other is not yet Come: Vespasian came in 69 and Jerusalem was sacked under Titus General in A.D. 70.

It is absolutely irrelevant what 'scholars' say about the dating of Revelation. The scholars are in error. Most of this 'scholarship' came from atheistic German scholarship during the 19th century. You have an Angel sent from Jesus Christ giving you the correct date.

And just to add to and display the bitter irony of Satan's work through his fine atheist 'scholars', the common dating of Revelation is exactly wrong.

It was not written in 96. It was written in 69.

 

[frater]

If you think that establishing the date of Revelation through its own inspired text in A.D. 69 causes any problems for the Dispensationalist, you are correct.

 

[parousia70]

Following your reasoning, most of the exhortations in the NT don't apply to us at all.
Like this:
1Pe 5:4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Does this apply to you?

Php 2:19
19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.

Are you waiting for Timothy's "Soon" arrival to you Free?
Or is that scripture simply "Lifeless history"?

Creating such a difference between the Christians of pre70 AD and post 70's AD is one of the hallmarks of full preterism.

St Remigius cites a difference between Christians post 70 to pre 70 in his commentary on Matt 24:

"So it was ordained of God, that as soon as the light of grace was revealed, the temple with its ceremonies should be taken out of the way, lest any weakling in the faith, beholding all the things [p. 800] instituted of the Lord and hallowed by the Prophets yet abiding, might be gradually drawn away from the purity of the faith to a carnal Judaism."

Ceartainly Christian Jews drawn back to the temple worship system a would have been far less likely to think it prudent AFTER ad70, which, according to Remigius, was among Gods own reasoning for destroying the temple.

Yet according to you, creating any difference between post 70 Christians and pre 70 Christians is an exclusively full preterist exercize.

In contrast, not only in ECF writings do we find commentary of a "Change" for Christians at AD70, we see that recognizing a fundemental, covenental change ocourred in AD70 is a view shared by many contemoporary orthodox (partial) preterists such as James Akin and Scott Hahn (and myself).

The Apostolic Generation wrestled with principalities, both spiritual and temporal, that no generation since has had to contend with.
They alone were selected for the task Navigate humanity out from the covenant of condemnation and death to the covenant of salvation and life, since they existed in the 40 year covenental overlap, much the same way as Moses was selected to navigate the hebrew people out of egyptian slavery into the promised land during that 40 year overlap.

The Jews who entered the promised land after the 40 year wandering did not share the burden of the generation of Jews who navigated the wilderness, likewise, You and I today do not shoulder the apostolic burdon Free.

Christ reigns victorious over His church...

Christ reigns victorious over the universe, yet only the Church shares in that victory.

Do you argue a change in that reality is coming in our future?
Or are you arguing that there are principalities, authorities, personalities and / or entities that today enjoy power and authority ABOVE that which Christ now posesses?

 

[holdon]

A person may know beyond a shadow of a doubt when the Book of Revelation was written.

"and they are seven kings; the five are fallen, the one is, the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a little while."

Five are fallen: Nero Caesar was the fifth King. He reigned until A.D. 68

Let's see whether there are no shadows... How come Nero Caesar was the 5th? Who were nr. 1, 2, 3, and 4? And while you're at it: who are nr 6, 7 and 8th?

One is: It is clear that John received the Revelation in A.D. 68 or 69.

The other is not yet Come: Vespasian came in 69 and Jerusalem was sacked under Titus General in A.D. 70.

It is absolutely irrelevant what 'scholars' say about the dating of Revelation. The scholars are in error. Most of this 'scholarship' came from atheistic German scholarship during the 19th century. You have an Angel sent from Jesus Christ giving you the correct date.

And just to add to and display the bitter irony of Satan's work through his fine atheist 'scholars', the common dating of Revelation is exactly wrong.

It was not written in 96. It was written in 69.

Well, let's wait till you dispel these shadows satisfactorily: please number the Roman emperors 1 - 8.

 

[holdon]

Does this apply to you?

Php 2:19
19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.

Are you waiting for Timothy's "Soon" arrival to you Free?
Or is that scripture simply "Lifeless history"?

Paul was certainly waiting for Christ in his day. So, did He come then? Did He come in 70AD? Didn't He say, He would come quickly and His reward would be with Him? So, who got rewarded in 70AD?

 

[frater]

Let's see whether there are no shadows... How come Nero Caesar was the 5th? Who were nr. 1, 2, 3, and 4? And while you're at it: who are nr 6, 7 and 8th? Well, let's wait till you dispel these shadows satisfactorily: please number the Roman emperors 1 - 8.

Then test it if you will. Google it if you must.

But, if even having an Angel of the Lord giving one the correct date of the writing of the Apocalypse does not sufficiantly convince the Dispensationalist that he has been deceived, he might do well to look at the beginnings of his own convoluted doctrine.

It came from John Nelson Darby. Darby, who was both a notorious date setter, half lunatic combined with half false prophet invented Dispensational Premillenialism from the ragings of his own mind.

Dispensational Premillenialism came from a mind that was unstable, ignorant of the scriptures, and driven by some false motive because he constantly insisted that the knew the day of the Lord's return.

I have no more tolerance for such nonsense. The world is getting ravished by Satan and the 'Christian's' are listening to the Pied Pipers who sell them poorly written and false novels called LEFT BEHIND!

 

[Markea]

frater,

So, as asked in your thread...

When did the Lord COME with all His saints and take the beast and the false prophet who had all the armies of the earth gathered together against Him.. ? ?

when was it frater.. ?

You refused to answer there and ran away claiming your silence.. what a pity.. and as mentioned.. it's typical..

 

[frater]

frater,

So, as asked in your thread...

When did the Lord COME with all His saints and take the beast and the false prophet who had all the armies of the earth gathered together against Him.. ? ?

when was it frater.. ?

You refused to answer there and ran away claiming your silence.. what a pity.. and as mentioned.. it's typical..

Ask me a question about a specific verse and chapter. Your question is so convoluted, I cannot make any sense of it.

Since you have set yourself up to oppose the truth, and since you claim that I am the false teacher, then before God I say...

Bring it on.

The church has been deceived by Dispensationalism long enough.

We are going to end it right now.

 

[Markea]

Ask me a question about a specific verse and chapter. Your question is so convoluted, I cannot make any sense of it.

Since you have set yourself up to oppose the truth, and since you claim that I am the false teacher, then before God I say...

Bring it on.

The church has been deceived by Dispensationalism long enough.

We are going to end it right now.

Come on frater you know exactly what I'm refering to from the latter part of Revelation 19.. when was that frater..?

You claim that satan is now loosed.. as mentioned in Revelation 20.. so when was he bound and when was the first resurrection of those who were beheaded for their testimony and for not worshipping the beast or his image..

When was it frater.. ?

But please go ahead and tell us when Revelation 19 was fulfilled.. the Lord coming with His saints and taking the beast and false prophet and throwing them alive into the lake of fire.. while the armies of the earth were gathered together against HIM and His armies from heaven..

When was that frater..?

Tell us when Revelation 19 took place..

 

[frater]

Come on frater you know exactly what I'm refering to from the latter part of Revelation 19.. when was that frater..?

You claim that satan is now loosed.. as mentioned in Revelation 20.. so when was he bound and when was the first resurrection of those who were beheaded for their testimony and for not worshipping the beast or his image..

When was it frater.. ?

But please go ahead and tell us when Revelation 19 was fulfilled.. the Lord coming with His saints and taking the beast and false prophet and throwing them alive into the lake of fire.. while the armies of the earth were gathered together against HIM and His armies from heaven..

When was that frater..?

Tell us when Revelation 19 took place..

A.D. 410

Next question.

 

[frater]

Mama's calling me for supper. So, Im going to go eat now. I'm going to let you boys think about this real hard for a while.

 

[Markea]

A.D. 410

Next question.

Oh right.. how could we have missed that..?

Why don't you give us the fine details of the Lord coming in 410 with all His saints while the armies of the earth were gathered together against His armies.. after mom feeds ya of course.. frater..

Thanks

 

[Markea]

and you're not a preterist.. lol

What's in that stuff that mom's feedin ya boy ?

 

[Markea]

So according to frater.. the Lord came back with all His saints in 410 AD and then took the beast and his false prophet and threw them into the lake of fire, while the armies of the earth were gathered together against Him and His army..

I can't wait for all the details on this..

Thanks in advance frater..

 

[frater]

Oh right.. how could we have missed that..?

Why don't you give us the fine details of the Lord coming in 410 with all His saints while the armies of the earth were gathered together against His armies.. after mom feeds ya of course.. frater..

Thanks

Rev 19 deals with the sack of Rome. Rome was sacked in A.D. 410

Rev 19 says nothing of the Lord coming with all his Saints. It is not speaking of the Second Coming, but the Judgement of the Beast--Rome.

Next question.

P.S. Mama says I can eat at the computer. I think I will.

 

[frater]

I will go ahead and answer the next question.

"Neither was the judgement of Jerusalem in A.D. 70"

Next question.

 

[Markea]

Rev 19 deals with the sack of Rome. Rome was sacked in A.D. 410

Rev 19 says nothing of the Lord coming with all his Saints. It is not speaking of the Second Coming, but the Judgement of the Beast--Rome.

Next question.

P.S. Mama says I can eat at the computer. I think I will.

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This all happened in 410.. and you're not a preterist.. how old are you.. like 8 or something.. lol

OK, next question... when was the first resurrection with the beheaded folks who had not worshipped the beast or his image.. and when did they live and reign with Christ for a thousand years..?

I'll tell ya.. the Left Behind fiction series has nothing on you dude.. you should market this stuff. you'd be rich ! lol

 

[FreeinChrist]

[/color]

Ahhh Free.... I knew you couldn't stay away for long....

This entire thread I've been wondering which of my posts would finally be the one that pushed your button.

66 vs 96.
you know as well as I that this topic has been run into the ground here.
There is no concrete, undeniable PROOF for the exact date of the writing of Revelation.
If you want to start another thread to examine the evidences that exist, I'll happily chime in, but II won't be a party to your hijack attempt of this thread.

I'm not attempting to hijack the thread, parousia. My comment was in line with what was being written. You wrote:
"You argue, by extention, that the Revelation of Jesus Christ was not applicable to those who first received it, by arguing that it decribes events ordained to come to pass thousands of years after thier lifetime."

You wrote that in an attempt to support this:
Your claim that the Revelation of Jesus Christ was not FOR those Christians who FIRST received it dosen't hold up under any sober scrutiny.


You should really try and stop 'putting words in other people's mouths' -

Please show me where the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem, which is given as PROPHESY in the NT, is ever spoken of "after the fact" in the NT.

Why would it be? John didn't address it at all in his gospel or letters (written around 80 AD) and it was not the topic of Revelation.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Does this apply to you?

Php 2:19
19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.

Are you waiting for Timothy's "Soon" arrival to you Free?
Or is that scripture simply "Lifeless history"?

Just like a preterist - always ignoring context.
Why would that particular comment apply to me as far as Timonthy going to the Philipians.

This one does apply:
Phl 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for {His} good pleasure.
Phl 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;Phl 3:21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.


Now I wrote:Creating such a difference between the Christians of pre70 AD and post 70's AD is one of the hallmarks of full preterism.

St Remigius cites a difference between Christians post 70 to pre 70 in his commentary on Matt 24:

"So it was ordained of God, that as soon as the light of grace was revealed, the temple with its ceremonies should be taken out of the way, lest any weakling in the faith, beholding all the things [p. 800] instituted of the Lord and hallowed by the Prophets yet abiding, might be gradually drawn away from the purity of the faith to a carnal Judaism."

Ceartainly Christian Jews drawn back to the temple worship system a would have been far less likely to think it prudent AFTER ad70, which, according to Remigius, was among Gods own reasoning for destroying the temple.

Oh that isn't the difference I was speaking of, parousia. It is one we have discussed before. It is the difference you would create by having the Great White throne judgment occurring in 70 AD instead of yet future...the difference that results from claiming a resurrection occurred in 70 AD.

In fact, the quote above conflicts with nothing that I have ever written.

Yet according to you, creating any difference between post 70 Christians and pre 70 Christians is an exclusively full preterist exercize.

In contrast, not only in ECF writings do we find commentary of a "Change" for Christians at AD70, we see that recognizing a fundemental, covenental change ocourred in AD70 is a view shared by many contemoporary orthodox (partial) preterists such as James Akin and Scott Hahn (and myself).

And a great many disagree that the Old Covenant was in effect until 70 AD - instead, that God made it clear that it ended on His part by the tearing of the veil in the temple when Christ died. That veil separated the people from the Holy of Holies, a place only a high priest could go once a year. It was a big part of the Old Covenant. If it was stopped on God's end - that is all that matters.

The Apostolic Generation wrestled with principalities, both spiritual and temporal, that no generation since has had to contend with.

What bull. This verse applies as much today as then:

Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual {forces} of wickedness in the heavenly {places.}

These forces have been active since the fall of Satan and the angels that followed him.

They alone were selected for the task Navigate humanity out from the covenant of condemnation and death to the covenant of salvation and life, since they existed in the 40 year covenental overlap, much the same way as Moses was selected to navigate the hebrew people out of egyptian slavery into the promised land during that 40 year overlap.

The Jews who entered the promised land after the 40 year wandering did not share the burden of the generation of Jews who navigated the wilderness, likewise, You and I today do not shoulder the apostolic burdon Free.

That is ridiculous reasoning. I am sorry but it is . The Israelites who wandered the wilderness had to because they disobeyed and it took 40 years for the generation to die. It wasn't because of some overlap of covenants then and there wasn't one in 33 - 70 AD.
And the burden of the Israelites in the wilderness was caused by their own disobedience.
WE have the same burden as all those in church since it began - to preach the gospel to all the world...but wait - that is another thing you think was completed by 70 AD.


I wrote:
Christ reigns victorious over His church...
</FONT>

Do you argue a change in that reality is coming in our future?

Or are you arguing that there are principalities, authorities, personalities and / or entities that today enjoy power and authority ABOVE that which Christ now posesses?

I beleive that Satan is still active in the world...that there is STILL the forces of evil active in the world.
YOU are trying, in a very pathetically obvious way, to place words in my mouth that I am not saying. I never said they are ABOVE Christ, parousia. You really need to stop doing that - it is wrong.
Scripture says:
Hbr 10:12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

Hbr 10:13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.

You apparently limit His enemies as only the Jews alive in 70 AD.

There will be a time in the future, parousia, when His is the ONLY name heard - not Buddha, or any of the Hindu gods, or any other name that is worshipped today.

 

[frater]

This a great verse in Scripture. One of my favorites.

And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

This all happened in 410.. and you're not a preterist.. how old are you.. like 8 or something.. lol

Yes.

No.

28.

OK, next question... when was the first resurrection with the beheaded folks who had not worshipped the beast or his image.. and when did they live and reign with Christ for a thousand years..?

When the Beast was judged.

I'll tell ya.. the Left Behind fiction series has nothing on you dude.. you should market this stuff. you'd be rich ! lol

No. I would be what I am now-dirt poor.

Next question.