Is there really a 1000 year reign ?

[Markea]

And Revelation 14 also depicts Christ's Coming on the clouds. It's the same event, not chronological, which is, as I understand it, ross3421's contention. not that Revelation 20 is past, but that it is a literary redescription of the one event of Christ's coming on the clouds, which is described in many ways throughout the Book of revelation.

Perhaps you completely miss the enormity of it parousia.. how that IT IS FUTURE..yet much of Christendom (including catholicism) views it in the preteristic sense...just as you do..

Show me one entire nation without at least one Christian living there, and I'll believe your claim that Satan has the power to deceive "nations" today. In contrast, in and before the apostolic generation, entire nations were without the light of Christ, deceived ny Satan. Thankfully, this is no longer the case.

You need not take my word for it, take the word of God as it plainly declares by the mouth of at least three Apostles..

Peter says that the devil walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour..

Paul says that the god of this world has blinded (deceived) the minds of those that believe not... and he also says that we wrestle not against flesh and blood etc, but against principalities and powers, the rulers of darkness, spiritual wickedness in high places...

John says that the whole world lieth in wickedness..

If that's your idea of bound and unable to deceive, then so be it.. although aside from all that.. you have completely neglected the point that Revelation 20 is in the context of Christ's FUTURE coming.. not something in the past as you preterists would want everyone to believe..

Who might want people to believe that satan is bound and unable to deceive..? Any ideas come to mind..?

Now, to get specific, The First resurrection was Jesus Christ:

Not according to Revelation 20 it isn't.. it's specifically speaking of beheaded individuals who had not worshipped the beast or his image.. the same beast that will be thrown into the lake of fire at Christ's coming.. which you must make a past event..

This is why I told you before parousia...it's completely pointless to discuss these things with preterists such as yourself..because if you sincerely believe that Christ already came back, then you're terribly deceived.

There's no purpose in discussing your preterist comments any further.. it's ridiculous to say the least.. and thank God that preterist povs are not allowed.. it's so blatantly obvious how deceptive they are.

 

[AngCath]

1000 years is not literal, nor are hardly any numbers in visionary literature. it is symbolic for a long time. Also, Christ IS ruling now via the Church.

 

[Markea]

Christ IS ruling now via the Church.

You mean by those who sit in their seats of authority.. like the holy father, aka.. the vicar of Christ..?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

...

Also, Christ IS ruling now via the Church.

Where?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

1000 years is not literal, nor are hardly any numbers in visionary literature. it is symbolic for a long time. .

Do you think the six days of evenings and mornings of the creation week were just symbolical?
Did the waters of the flood of Noah's time cover the entire earth and was he in the ark for a year ? -or is it just a symbolical year for a symbolical flood?

Did Noah have three sons and three daughters in law -or is that just a symbolical number for symbolical peeple?

Was Jesus Christ's body in the tomb for three full evenings and mornings -or is it just a symbolical three days?

Were the children of israel wandering in the desert for 40 years -or was it just a symbolical forty years?

Did Jesus Christ rise from the dead in His own human being body -or is it just a symbolical rising?

Did the first Adam exist -or is Adam symbolical? -careful on that one -lest you illusion 'yourself' out of existence.

Did God make Eve out of Adam's side -or is that a symbolical tale?

Did Jesus Christ ascend into heaven after the forty days after he rose from the dead? -or is that just a symbolical ascending?

Did Jesus really feed the four and the five thousands of men on just a few loaves and fish, multiplied -or is it all symbolical?
What is a long time? then and who is the judge of it?
In fact, if all is symbolical what is all symbolical of -and where did you get your symbolical interpretation from and are you deluded by delusions of symbols, anyway?

 

[Rafael]

The spritual kingdom of God is eternal, and even now, we are at the right hand of the Father hidden in Christ. Do we feel and experience that spiritual state of being at this time? No, but the day comes and now is when the physical and the spiritual once again make a whole. Much speculation and error has come into doctine, effectively canceling out large portions of the Old Testament and New Testament, just in order to support over-spiritualized doctrines about the kingdom of God. A physical Kingdom has not yet come and neither have our new bodies even though we have entered or been translated into the Lord's kingdom that is not seen right now. "Now" is what eternity is, but Jesus displayed power over the dimensions after His resurrection that we should take note of. He could walk between time and eternity as He pleased, and appear out of nowhere to His followers. The physical kingdom will come or all the Old Testament Prophets will be proven false prophets. They gave prophecy for the day of the Lord, each and every one, giving us more detail by each account. There is no way overspiritualizing all of their prophecy away to the past can really be done without making a huge effort and a huge error. God holds the physical important or He would not make a new earth where Jesus and His family can reign and enjoy, finally, with the meeting of the physical and the spiritual as a whole once again, just as it was in the garden of Eden. God created man a physical and spiritual being. When we see the Lord again, we will be like Him and know as we are known - all the spiritual communion we have missed for so long while living in bodies of death.

 

[ShirleyFord]

nephilimiyr,

Jesus never said that he will repair and fashion the earth. That's simply adding to the word of God that is never spoken by God. God just says that he will destroy this present earth/heaven with fire and will create a new heavens and a new earth. When God created this earth and the current heavens that exist now, what did God use to make the earth and heavens come into existence? God just spoke and it appeared.


2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent
heat?

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 66:22 For as thenew heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

God never mentions anything about the old materials, the present world is cursed, why would God use some of the cursed material of this earth where righteousness will be dwelling forevermore?

Amen!

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Shirley

 

[Markea]

If folks are going to quote from 2 Peter chapter 3...then at least quote verse 8 which speaks of what we should NOT be ignorant of..

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

That's what the Day of the Lord...the Day of Christ shall be.. a thousand year reign.. as the Revelation of Jesus Christ says... the new heaven and earth comes after the thousand years are ended..

It's sad enough that much of Christendom ignores the fact that Israel has been blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.. and that Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled..

Not to mention the volume of prophetic and thematic content in the scriptures which pertains to Israel and to the restoration of Israel...

Let's not ignore this too !

 

[ShirleyFord]

If folks are going to quote from 2 Peter chapter 3...then at least quote verse 8 which speaks of what we should NOT be ignorant of..

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

That's what the Day of the Lord...the Day of Christ shall be.. a thousand year reign.. as the Revelation of Jesus Christ says... the new heaven and earth comes after the thousand years are ended..

It's sad enough that much of Christendom ignores the fact that Israel has been blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.. and that Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled..

Not to mention the volume of prophetic and thematic content in the scriptures which pertains to Israel and to the restoration of Israel...

Let's not ignore this too !

The subject of Peter's entire second epistle is The Second Coming of Christ.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

What will scoffers be saying?

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Peter's answer for the scoffers:

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

What Peter says will happen immediately when the Lord Returns:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2 Peter 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.


Shirley

 

[Markea]

That's right.. and according to Revelation, the new heavens and earth will be after the thousand years have ended...although still in that Day...

For that Day will be a thousand years..

Surely (Shirley) you don't believe that Revelation chapter 20 is past tense... or do you..?

Well.. you've already said that you do.. as you also believe that the first resurrection is past... although a closer look at Rev 20 clearly shows that it is future.. not something in the past..

 

[ShirleyFord]

That's right.. and according to Revelation, the new heavens and earth will be after the thousand years have ended...although still in that Day...

For that Day will be a thousand years..

Where do u find that in 2Peter 3?

So you believe that the Second Coming of Jesus will take 1000 years. Or are you saying that the 1000 years in Revelation 20 is actually 1000 year days?

I'm not following you.

 

[Markea]

Where do u find that in 2Peter 3?

So you believe that the Second Coming of Jesus will take 1000 years. Or are you saying that the 1000 years in Revelation 20 is actually 1000 year days?

I'm not following you.

I find it not only in 2 Peter, but in Revelation 20 and also in other portions of scripture which speak of the DAY of the Lord.. which is also the DAY of Christ..

Revelation 20 is clearly in the context of Christ's future coming and it says that they will reign with Him for a thousand years.. Rev 20 speaks of the First Resurrection within the context of beheaded individuals who had not worshipped the beast or his image.. and of the binding of satan for these thousand years..

It also speaks of the end of the thousand years when satan will be loosed and deceive the nations of the earth... although ultimately he is cast into the lake of fire..where the beast and the false prophet ARE.. (Rev 20:10)... SO.. Revelation 19 tells us clearly that the Lord takes the beast and the false prophet when He comes.. and throws them into the lake of fire then..

Again, it's clearly all in the context of future events.. because it's PROPHECY.. and yet much of Christendom applies it to past (preterist) events..

Amillennialism rejects the literal thousand year reign of Christ and spiritualizes all of this by teaching that we are ALREADY IN the millennial kingdom of Christ today.. as if the DAY of Christ has already come..? ? ? this is why they also teach that the First Resurrection is past, and that satan is currently bound.. BECAUSE these things are inseparable in Rev 20..

I believe it was the RCC who condemned the literal thousand year reign of Christ in 431 AD... It was then called Chiliasm.. and it's primarily the doing of Augustine, who spiritualized the prophecies of Revelation and considered everything from a preteristic (past tense) point of view..

I had read that Augustine originally believed in the literal future reign of Christ, but that he later rejected this in favor of the amillennial position which he basically came up with by spiritualizing all of the future prophecy in Revelation, and considering them as events of the past...

 

[Markea]

Who would be tickled to death if you believed that he was bound and unable to deceive the nations at this time.. ?

Satan and all his followers would.. that's who..

Think of the enormity of this in relation to his future manifestation as the beast, the man of sin, who demands worship from the whole world..as he claims to be god..

If people think that he is bound today, then who will they take this man for..?

Satan and all of his followers are pretty pleased that they have huge portions of professing Christendom believing that he is bound and unable to deceive the nations at this time..

think about it..

 

[yeshuasavedme]

If folks are going to quote from 2 Peter chapter 3...then at least quote verse 8 which speaks of what we should NOT be ignorant of..

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

That's what the Day of the Lord...the Day of Christ shall be.. a thousand year reign.. as the Revelation of Jesus Christ says... the new heaven and earth comes after the thousand years are ended..

It's sad enough that much of Christendom ignores the fact that Israel has been blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.. and that Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled..

Not to mention the volume of prophetic and thematic content in the scriptures which pertains to Israel and to the restoration of Israel...

Let's not ignore this too !

The Day of Christ =The Day of the LORD: The Sabbath Rest of earth's thousands and the last Day of this present earth before the melting of the elements, by fire, and the regeneration of it -called the eighth day and the new beginning of this creation.

True Markea,
The whole of unbelieving christendom cannot 'see' for they are willfully blinded, just as the rulers in Israel were willfully blinded when they crucified the LORD Jesus and so fullfilled prophecy.

The Day had not come, they were not in it, was the theme of Paul to the Thessolonians, who were being duped into believing by letters as from the apostles and false prophecies uttered 'in the spirit' falsely, that the Day of the LORD had come -was already here; Paul wrote to them to assure them that that Day can not come unless the 'laqach' of the Church comes first, the gathering together in the air that he had spoken of to them, that must come before the man of sin can be revealed, and he wrote to convince them that t'he Hope of the Church had not come -in glory', and they were absolutely not in the Day of the LORD because they were still on this earth and alive in their unchanged bodies -so where does that leave all those present professors of that false teaching that Paul wrote to the Thessalonians and refuted that doctrine, soundly, who teach this heresy today?-as false teachers!


The great departure of the Church which begins Day of the LORD.

2 Thessalonians
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of *Christ had come.

The Day of the LORD has not come, Paul tells the Thessalonians, who were in horrible persecutions, at that time.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the departing comes first, and the man of *sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

For 1500 years of Church history, that word was translated departing; and Paul says the gathering together to Him happens at that departing, and that Day will not come until the 'laqach' ='harpazo' and then the man of sin will be revealed -and cannot be revealed until that happens.

Paul explains the gathering together to the LORD and the resurrected dead in Christ Believers of all Adam who were born again in spirit at that same time, in the air, at the great 'laqach': the mystery hidden in the Old Testament and revealed by the Holy Spirit in the New, which Paul showed, in other passages.


5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. ...
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for deliverance through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

 

[Markea]

The Day of Christ =The Day of the LORD: The Sabbath Rest of earth's thousands and the last Day of this present earth before the melting of the elements, by fire, and the regeneration of it -called the eighth day and the new beginning of this creation.

True Markea,
The whole of unbelieving christendom cannot 'see' for they are willfully blinded, just as the rulers in Israel were willfully blinded when they crucified the LORD Jesus and so fullfilled prophecy.

The Day had not come, they were not in it, was the theme of Paul to the Thessolonians, who were being duped into believing by letters as from the apostles and false prophecies uttered 'in the spirit' falsely, that the Day of the LORD had come -was already here; Paul wrote to them to assure them that that Day can not come unless the 'laqach' of the Church comes first, the gathering together in the air that he had spoken of to them, that must come before the man of sin can be revealed, and he wrote to convince them that t'he Hope of the Church had not come -in glory', and they were absolutely not in the Day of the LORD because they were still on this earth and alive in their unchanged bodies -so where does that leave all those present professors of that false teaching that Paul wrote to the Thessalonians and refuted that doctrine, soundly, who teach this heresy today?-as false teachers!


The great departure of the Church which begins Day of the LORD.

2 Thessalonians
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of *Christ had come.

The Day of the LORD has not come, Paul tells the Thessalonians, who were in horrible persecutions, at that time.

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the departing comes first, and the man of *sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

For 1500 years of Church history, that word was translated departing; and Paul says the gathering together to Him happens at that departing, and that Day will not come until the 'laqach' ='harpazo' and then the man of sin will be revealed -and cannot be revealed until that happens.

Paul explains the gathering together to the LORD and the resurrected dead in Christ Believers of all Adam who were born again in spirit at that same time, in the air, at the great 'laqach': the mystery hidden in the Old Testament and revealed by the Holy Spirit in the New, which Paul showed, in other passages.


5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. ...
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for deliverance through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

A M E N

 

[FreeinChrist]

I
I believe it was the RCC who condemned the literal thousand year reign of Christ in 431 AD... It was then called Chiliasm.. and it's primarily the doing of Augustine, who spiritualized the prophecies of Revelation and considered everything from a preteristic (past tense) point of view..

Actually it was never condemned. Some fo those who happened to be chilaists were condemned for other beliefs. Example Cerinthius believed it was a time for physical pleasure.

Here is a good article: http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2489

 

[Markea]

Actually it was never condemned. Some fo those who happened to be chilaists were condemned for other beliefs. Example Cerinthius believed it was a time for physical pleasure.

Here is a good article: http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2489

Thanks for the article.. I have read this before although it doesn't convince me that it was not condemned as heresey..it practically seems to substantiate it more than anything..

I suppose that the real issue is that much of Christendom has embraced the doctrine of amillennialism..although I will agree that this does not mean that the opposite views were condemned..

There's a lot of articles like this.. and perhaps we'll never know for sure.. although the masses which speak for amillennialism are a pretty large crowd, and that voice is certainly still being heard today..

Thanks again though.. these are interesting articles..

 

[ShirleyFord]

Markea,

Thanks for clarifying your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:8:

"Yes, the DAY OF CHRIST will be a LITERAL 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ on earth

I find it not only in 2 Peter, but in Revelation 20 and also in other portions of scripture which speak of the DAY of the Lord.. which is also the DAY of Christ."

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

You must spiritualize the thousand years in 2 Peter 3:8 and then spiritualize the day of the Lord, which is the Second Coming of Christ, also in order to have the Day of Christ, the future Second Coming of Christ, to be a literal thousand years!

But 2 Peter 3:8 is not referring to the day of the Lord, the future Second Coming of Christ nor is Peter saying here that the day of the Lord is a thousand years.

Why don't you use the Scriptures which show clearly the day of the Lord, the future Second Coming of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

No mention that the day of the Lord is a thousand years.

'Thousand years' in 2 Peter 3:8 is a figure of speech, the very same way that 'thousand years' is used in the rest of the Bible. We find 'thousand years' only 2 times in the OT.

(1) Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

(2) Ecclesiastes 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

We find 'thousand years' 8 times in the NT.

2 times in 2 Peter 3:8, 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

And 6 times in Revelation 20:2-7:



Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

But in none of these 10 Scriptures where we find 'thousand years' do we one time find that the thousand years is the Second Coming of Christ.

Shirley

 

[Markea]

But in none of these 10 Scriptures where we find 'thousand years' do we one time find that the thousand years is the Second Coming of Christ.

Shirley

Try Revelation 19, which is contextually tied to Revelation 20..

It's right there in front of you...

 

[ShirleyFord]

Try Revelation 19, which is contextually tied to Revelation 20..

It's there right in front of you...

It is interesting to note that many of the events that are said to occur at the end of the millennium are also found in Revelation 19. Some examples of such are found as follows:

A great concluding battle.
The rescue/defence of the righteous.
The union of the Bride and the Bridegroom.
The fiery destruction of all the wicked/world.
The origin of the fire being God.
A general judgment.

But nowhere in Revelation 19 or Revelation 20 or Revelation 21 do we find it written that it will take Jesus 1000 years to complete His future Second Coming.

Shirley