Is There Faith In Calvinist System?

[John Mullally]

Okay. Thanks for being clear that God is cruel and unjust in that He has no problem punishing His Son for a sin that He knows He’ll punish someone else for.

Many Calvinists seem to see a one for one equivalence between our sins and the price of their atonement which ultimately denies the sufficiency of the atonement to save anyone except those for whom it was designed to save (i.e. the elect).

Non-Calvinists see the atonement as being in line with the brass serpent that God ordered Moses to lift on the pole in the desert (Numbers 21). Although that serpent was provided for all, it only benefitted the ones who looked to it for healing. No one would argue the serpent did not sufficiently provide the means for healing to all simply because some may have refused to look to the provision for healing.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.​

 

[Hammster]

Many Calvinists seem to see a one for one equivalence between our sins and the price of their atonement which ultimately denies the sufficiency of the atonement to save anyone except those for whom it was designed to save (i.e. the elect).

Not true. It’s definitely sufficient to save all.

Non-Calvinists see the atonement as being in line with the brass serpent that God ordered Moses to lift on the pole in the desert (Numbers 21). Although that serpent was provided for all, it only benefitted the ones who looked to it for healing. No one would argue the serpent did not sufficiently provide the means for healing to all simply because some may have refused to look to the provision for healing.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.​

The focus is on the lifting up.

And you are still left with God either unjustly punishing His Son, or unjustly punishing sinners in hell.

 

[John Mullally]

And you are still left with God either unjustly punishing His Son, or unjustly punishing sinners in hell.

I will not answer your questions because again they are predicated on an assumption you know I do not accept. Again, stop doing that! You assume that there are no conditions for receiving Christ's atonement.

The Bible says that the atonement was made for all men (1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2) and we know not all are saved. This points to the fact that the atonemement is received conditionally. 2 Peter 2:1 confirms that in that it shows that some for whom Christ died went to hell. John 3:14-15 and Mark 16:15-16 identify the conditions for receiving the atonement.

 

[Hammster]

I will not answer your questions because again they are predicated on an assumption you know I do not accept. Again, stop doing that! You assume that there are no conditions for receiving Christ's atonement.

The Bible says that the atonement was made for all men (1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2) and we know not all are saved. This points to the fact that the atonemement is received conditionally. 2 Peter 2:1 confirms that in that it shows that some for whom Christ died went to hell. John 3:14-15 and Mark 16:15-16 identify the conditions for receiving the atonement.

So what does the atonement actually accomplish in reality?

 

[John Mullally]

So what does the atonement actually accomplish in reality?

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.

 

[Hammster]

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.

So it doesn’t actually satisfy God’s wrath.

 

[John Mullally]

So what does the atonement actually accomplish in reality?

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.

So it doesn’t actually satisfy God’s wrath.

Your pithy nine-word open-ended question on the atonement made no mention of addressing "satisfying God's wrath", If that was important to you, you should have emphasized it, You don't get quote me as saying Christ's atonement "doesn't satisfy God's wrath" when I never said anything like that.

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.​

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I will not be answering your stream of questions. If you want to make an argument for Calvinism, I will listen and respond to that.

 

[Hammster]

Your pithy nine-word open-ended question on the atonement made no mention of addressing "satisfying God's wrath", If that was important to you, you should have emphasized it, You don't get quote me as saying Christ's atonement "doesn't satisfy God's wrath" because I (Hammster) did not mention God's wrath in answer to a 15th century question that does not address "satisfying God's wrath".

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.​

​

I will not be answering your stream of questions. If you want to make an argument for Calvinism, I will listen and respond to that.

I just wanted to know if the atonement, in your theology, satisfied God’s wrath. Now I know that it doesn’t, and Christ’s work on the cross wasn’t really finished, as He said. It still required something from man, per your statements.

 

[John Mullally]

I just wanted to know if the atonement, in your theology, satisfied God’s wrath.

You can ask without resorting to putting words in my mouth. The atonement satisfies God's wrath.

Now I know that it doesn’t, and Christ’s work on the cross wasn’t really finished, as He said. It still required something from man, per your statements.

I certainly never said Christ's work on the Cross was not finished. The fact that the atonement is received individually by faith does not make it incomplete. Christ has done everything He will do for man's salvation 2000 years ago. From the non-Calvinist perspective, Christ’s atonement is:

1. Accepted by God as a finished work,
2. Available indiscriminately to all men,
3. Applied individually only by faith.

The provision of Christ’s atonement is fully accepted by God, and thus finished in that respect, just as the serpent on a standard of Numbers 21:6-9 was a finished work of God for all who were snake-bitten to come and receive their healing. The atonement is made available to all men, so that anyone can come and receive God’s free offer of forgiveness. The atonement is applied individually only when someone places their faith in Christ.

By contrast, in Calvinism’s doctrine of Particular Redemption, or Limited Atonement, Christ’s atonement is both available and applied (key distinction) exclusively only to Calvinism’s elect.

 

[Hammster]

You can ask without resorting to putting words in my mouth. The atonement satisfies God's wrath.

Not by any definition of satisfies that I know.

I certainly never said Christ's work on the Cross was not finished. The fact that the atonement is received individually by faith does not make it incomplete.

Yes it does. It needs one more step.

Christ has done everything He will do for man's salvation 2000 years ago. From the non-Calvinist perspective, Christ’s atonement is:

1. Accepted by God as a finished work,
2. Available indiscriminately to all men,
3. Applied individually only by faith.

So without 3, it’s incomplete.

The provision of Christ’s atonement is fully accepted by God, and thus finished in that respect, just as the serpent on a standard of Numbers 21:6-9 was a finished work of God for all who were snake-bitten to come and receive their healing. The atonement is made available to all men, so that anyone can come and receive God’s free offer of forgiveness. The atonement is applied individually only when someone places their faith in Christ.

Again, not complete without man doing something.

By contrast, in Calvinism’s doctrine of Particular Redemption, or Limited Atonement, Christ’s atonement is both available and applied (key distinction) exclusively only to Calvinism’s elect.

Right. It actually is finished for those it’s intended for.

I’m curious, though. Where does scripture say that God’s wrath becomes unsatisfied upon death of the unbeliever?

 

[John Mullally]

Not by any definition of satisfies that I know.

Yes it does. It needs one more step.

So without 3, it’s incomplete.

Again, not complete without man doing something.

Right. It actually is finished for those it’s intended for.

I’m curious, though. Where does scripture say that God’s wrath becomes unsatisfied upon death of the unbeliever?

In John 3:14 Jesus compares His atonement to the serpent Moses lifted in the wilderness. What was the significance of that? I gave my explanation in the previous post. In John 3:15, Jesus says the atonement is for " whoever believes in Him". I am for that, but you seem to be arguing with it, saying that it adds a step.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.​

2 Peter 2:1 shows that there are people in hell for whom Christ paid His atonement. That agrees with my position and conflicts with yours. Scripture is final authority.

I’m curious, though. Where does scripture say that God’s wrath becomes unsatisfied upon death of the unbeliever?

This question assumes I agree with your premise that man's receiving the atonement is not conditional.

 

[Hammster]

This question assumes I agree with your premise that man's receiving the atonement is not conditional.

It doesn’t. It assumes that everyone is not under God’s wrath. That’s is your position.

“The atonement satisfies God's wrath.”

His wrath must be stirred up again at death, I assume.

 

[John Mullally]

It doesn’t. It assumes that everyone is not under God’s wrath. That’s is your position.

What did I say for you to think that is my position? I told you that people are condemned for sin in Post 332.

 

[Hammster]

What did I say for you to think that is my position? I told you that people are condemned for sin in Post 332.

You said, “The atonement satisfies God's wrath.”

 

[John Mullally]

You said, “The atonement satisfies God's wrath.”

Without the atonement everyone is under God's wrath because of sin. Although Christ died for all men (1 John 2:2 and 1 TImothy 2:6), the atonement for sin is only received by those who believe (John 3:14-15 and Mark 16:15-16). Those who do not believe do not receive the atonement and die in there sins. So God's wrath remains on those who do not believe.

John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.​

How you exactly do you come up with the following? You are obviously asking me because somehow you think I hold that position. If your are going to make such puzzling statements, you need to explain how you derive them.

I’m curious, though. Where does scripture say that God’s wrath becomes unsatisfied upon death of the unbeliever?

 

[Hammster]

Without the atonement everyone is under God's wrath because of sin. Although Christ died for all men (1 John 2:2 and 1 TImothy 2:6), the atonement for sin is only received by those who believe (John 3:14-15 and Mark 16:15-16).

That’s not propitiation for everyone. I specifically asked about that.

So it doesn’t actually satisfy God’s wrath.

The atonement satisfies God's wrath.

Your view, as articulated, is like Schrödinger’s cat.

 

[John Mullally]

That’s not propitiation for everyone. I specifically asked about that.

Well I summarized Christ's propitiation in Post 357 from my POV because I don't understand what you are asking. And with this last post I still don't. I think the issue is that you are mixing parts of what I say with your own thinking on the atonement that conflicts with my thinking, If that is the case, of course nothing makes sense.

Your view, as articulated, is like Schrödinger’s cat.

Sometimes you have to temporarily let go of your own view to understand someone elses view. Being Proudly Narrow Minded does not help.

I repeat myself: How exactly do you come up with the following? You are asking me this because somehow you think I hold that position. Perhaps if you can go into detail on explaining this, I might be able to understand where you are coming from instead of guessing. If you cannot do that, this conversation is over.

I’m curious, though. Where does scripture say that God’s wrath becomes unsatisfied upon death of the unbeliever?

 

[Hammster]

Well I summarized Christ's propitiation in Post 357 from my POV because I don't understand what you are asking. And with this last post I still don't. I think the issue is that you are mixing parts of what I say with your own thinking on the atonement that conflicts with my thinking, If that is the case, of course nothing makes sense.

Sometimes you have to completely let go of your own view to understand someone elses view.

I repeat myself: How exactly do you come up with the following? You are asking me this because somehow you think I hold that position. Perhaps if you can go into detail on explaining this, I might be able to understand where you are coming from instead of guessing. If you cannot do that, this conversation is over.

It’s because I asked if God’s wrath was satisfied for everyone, to which you replied “The atonement satisfies God's wrath.” If you don’t mean that God’s wrath wasn’t satisfied on the cross for everyone, then I have misunderstood you and need clarification.

 

[John Mullally]

It’s because I asked if God’s wrath was satisfied for everyone, to which you replied “The atonement satisfies God's wrath.” If you don’t mean that God’s wrath wasn’t satisfied on the cross for everyone, then I have misunderstood you and need clarification.

I covered that question in Post 357.

I think we agree that Christ's atonement satisfies God's wrath for those who meet the terms laid down by Jesus in John 3:14-15 and Mark 16:15-16, Those who do not receive the atonement, go to hell because their sins are not forgiven.

We differ in that (a) 5-point Calvinist's believe God predetermines which persons will meet those terms and Christ dies only for them and (b) non-Calvinist's believe the atonement is made for all men, but God leaves the ultimate decision on who meets the terms with men - thus leaving the atonement as being received conditional.

 

[Hammster]

I covered that question in Post 357.

I think we agree that Christ's atonement satisfies God's wrath for those who meet the terms laid down by Jesus in John 3:14-15 and Mark 16:15-16, Those who do not receive the atonement, go to hell because their sins are not forgiven.

We differ in that (a) 5-point Calvinist's believe God predetermines which persons will meet those terms and Christ dies only for them and (b) non-Calvinist's believe the atonement is made for all men, but God leaves the ultimate decision on who meets the terms with men - thus leaving the atonement as being received conditional.

If someone’s sins aren’t forgiven, how can God’s wrath be satisfied towards them?