Is There Faith In Calvinist System?

[Hammster]

If you don't bring your cars into one of his shops you will not get repairs.

But you are saying that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world. That would equate to a mechanic being the mechanic of the whole world. If Jesus doesn’t save everyone, He’s not the savior of the whole world. He’s a Savior, though.

You don't accept my explanation 1 Timothy 4:10. How about switching roles: You explain the meaning of 1 Timothy 4:10 and I do the "cross-examination" the way you do by putting words in your mouth just like you do to me?

I don’t put words in your mouth. I just extrapolate from what you’ve said.

As to your request, there’s a sense that Christ is a savior to the unbeliever. It’s the common grace that God bestows on everyone. But, He specifically saves believers in that He justifies by faith.

 

[John Mullally]

But you are saying that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world. That would equate to a mechanic being the mechanic of the whole world. If Jesus doesn’t save everyone, He’s not the savior of the whole world. He’s a Savior, though.

Please explain what you make of 1 Timothy 4:10. - especially the part I highlighted.

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

​

I don’t put words in your mouth. I just extrapolate from what you’ve said.

You extrapolate using your own preconceptions that you know we don't share to create some non-sense. That is putting words in my mouth. I think you do it to make the other person looking foolish and keep them on the defensive. You do it frequently and it is dishonest.

I frequently anticipate that you will do that so I sprinkle in statements to steer you away from that - and yet you still put words in my mouth. Your Post 373 responds to my Post 367 and it consists purely of putting words in my mouth. If you considered what I wrote in Post 369, you would have known not to do that. On top of that you know very well I do not believe all will be saved.

Post 367: No. 1 Timothy 4:10 is worded to indicate that Jesus is the savior of all men even non-believers. In the same way Jesus is propitiation for all men, even unbelievers.

1 Timothy 4:10 “For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.”​

Post 369: While the Bible speaks of Jesus having died for everyone (1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6), and God’s desire for all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9), no apostle ever said that “the whole world will be redeemed” or “all men will be saved.” Of course, all men do have a Savior (1 Timothy 4:10), but that doesn’t mean that all men are saved. One must still believe in Jesus in order to receive His promise of eternal life. (John 3:16). That’s where the restriction comes in.

Post 373: So unbelievers are saved. Interesting.

 

[John Mullally]

I think that you are overly high in your estimation of the percentage of Calvinist Christians. The vast majority of acknowledged Christians include those of the RCC and EOC, both of which thoroughly reject monergism, although embracing other aspects of Calvinist theology. Thus, probably less than 1% of professing Christians are self-identified Calvinists and less than 1% are self-identified Arminians. Whether or not you identify as Arminian is incidental to this discussion. The discussion is clearly focused on the issue of monergism versus synergism. You, along with the RCC and the EOC, hold to a synergistic soteriology.

The fact is that Christ, according to synergists, is not the effective agent in the salvation of anyone. Christ has merely provided the means of salvation and is now a passive observer as people actively serve as the effective agents of their personal salvation. Monergists, by contrast, believe that Christ is the effective agent in the salvation of (especially) believers, calling His sheep into his fold where none can snatch them from His almighty hand.

We are all on a pilgrimmage. You are right in that there is no easy breakdown. The word of God carries a lot that is hard to understand. For me, I keep my eyes open and ask the Lord to help me understand.

 

[Hammster]

Please explain what you make of 1 Timothy 4:10. - especially the part I highlighted.

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

​

I did.

You extrapolate using your own preconceptions that you know we don't share to create some non-sense. That is putting words in my mouth. I think you do it to make the other person looking foolish and keep them on the defensive. You do it frequently and it is dishonest.

If you look foolish it’s because your views are inconsistent. I directly address your posts as to make sure there’s no misunderstanding. I have no intention of making you look foolish. My only intent is to show how your view doesn’t hold water.

I frequently anticipate that you will do that so I sprinkle in statements to steer you away from that - and yet you still put words in my mouth. Your Post 373 responds to my Post 367 and it consists purely of putting words in my mouth. If you considered what I wrote in Post 369, you would have known not to do that. On top of that you know very well I do not believe all will be saved.

I know you don’t believe that. However, when you insist that Jesus saves everyone (because that’s what Saviors do…they save), I am obligated to point out that it’s inconsistent with your belief that Jesus doesn’t save everyone. And just like you say He’s the propitiation for all, you have also said that God’s wrath isn’t for everyone. That’s an inconsistency.

 

[bbbbbbb]

We are all on a pilgrimmage. You are right in that there is no easy breakdown. The word of God carries a lot that is hard to understand. For me, I keep my eyes open and ask the Lord to help me understand.

In truth, I think that is all we can do.

 

[John Mullally]

If you look foolish it’s because your views are inconsistent. I directly address your posts as to make sure there’s no misunderstanding. I have no intention of making you look foolish. My only intent is to show how your view doesn’t hold water.

Nevertheless, you put words in my mouth based upon what you term extrapolation and now you say that is OK because you give me a chance to respond to the non-sense you purport that I am saying. Great, I am put on the defensive and now I have to work to tear down your gross misrepesentation. Maybe this is great fun for you, but It is a dishonest tactic. Why don't you quote what I say that you have a problem with and then make your critique or ask for clarification.

I know you don’t believe that. However, when you insist that Jesus saves everyone (because that’s what Saviors do…they save), I am obligated to point out that it’s inconsistent with your belief that Jesus doesn’t save everyone.

1 Timothy 4:10 says that Jesus is the Savior of all people and from the wording that includes unbelievers. Your argument is with scripture.

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

And just like you say He’s the propitiation for all, you have also said that God’s wrath isn’t for everyone. That’s an inconsistency.

I have explained numerous times that Christ's propitation is received conditionally. Therefore, God's wrath is only satified for those individuals that meet the conditions (John 3:14-15, Mark 16:15-16). I don't expect you to agree with what I am saying. But at least I provided a logical explanation, so you can stop saying I am inconsistent.

 

[Hammster]

I have explained numerous times that Christ's propitation is received conditionally. Therefore, God's wrath is only satified for those individuals that meet the conditions (John 3:14-15, Mark 16:15-16). I don't expect you to agree with what I am saying. But at least I provided an explanation, so you can stop saying I am inconsistent.

If it’s only satisfied for those who meet the conditions (which is my view, too), then it’s not propitious for everyone. In other words, God’s wrath remains on some (see John 3:36). So there’s no practical way that you can continue to say that God’s wrath was satisfied for everyone, ie He didn’t die for everyone.

 

[John Mullally]

If it’s only satisfied for those who meet the conditions (which is my view, too), then it’s not propitious for everyone. In other words, God’s wrath remains on some (see John 3:36). So there’s no practical way that you can continue to say that God’s wrath was satisfied for everyone, ie He didn’t die for everyone.

Early on I said Christ's Proprietation satisfies God's wrath which was overly simplistic given that I view Christ's Propitiation as being received conditionally. I corrected that error in Post 363 and say that Christ's Propitiation only satisfies God's wrath for those who meet the conditions to receive its benefits (John 3:14-15, Mark 16:15-16, and here you gave me another one John 3:36).

1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6 say Christ died for everyone. 1 Timothy 4:10 indicates He is the Savior of all people - which must also mean He died for all people. As a non-Calvinist, those passages do not present a problem: In our view, they do not require all men be saved as many for whom Christ died do not qualify to receive salvation (John 3:14-15, Mark 16:15-16).

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

 

[Hammster]

Early on I said Christ's Proprietation satisfies God's wrath which was overly simplistic given that I view Christ's Propitiation as being received conditionally. I corrected that error in Post 363 and say that Christ's Propitiation only satisfies God's wrath for those who meet the conditions to receive its benefits (John 3:14-15, Mark 16:15-16, and here you gave me another one John 3:36).

1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6 say Christ died for everyone. 1 Timothy 4:10 indicates He is the Savior of all people - which must also mean He died for all people. As a non-Calvinist, those passages do not present a problem: In our view, they do not require all men be saved as many for whom Christ died do not qualify to receive salvation (John 3:14-15, Mark 16:15-16).

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:2

How do you get God’s wrath only being satisfied for those who meet the conditions? It clearly says His atonement is propitious for the whole world. Propitious doesn’t mean potentially propitious. It means propitious.

 

[AVB 2]

My opinions (for what they are worth!) It seems some people have problems of where we get our faith to believe. Hebrews 12:2 "fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God." So Jesus gave us the faith we needed so that we could believe in Him. Colossians 1:16 "For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him." Jesus created "all things" which includes faith.

On to Christ died for all; Christ was the ransom for all; Christ shed His blood for all; Christ bore the sins of all. So did Isaiah prophesy that the Messiah will justify everyone?

Isa 53:11 and 12 " He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify MANY, For He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of MANY, And made intercession for the transgressors."

Matthew 20:28 "...the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for MANY.”

Mark 14:24 “And he said unto them, This is my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many.”

John 17:2-3 ““As You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as MANY as You have given Him. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” Only God has “authority to give eternal life.”

Acts 2:39 “For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”

Acts 13:48 “And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

Romans 8:29 “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among MANY brethren.”

Romans 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience MANY were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience MANY will be made righteous."


Romans 8:29 "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among MANY brethren." Many not all.

Hebrews 2:10 “For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”

Hebrews 9:28 “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

I can't seem to find all in any of these passages.

 

[John Mullally]

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:2

Does whole world mean every man, woman, boy and girl? Do you believe Christ's propitiation was for everyone in the world?

How do you get God’s wrath only being satisfied for those who meet the conditions? It clearly says His atonement is propitious for the whole world. Propitious doesn’t mean potentially propitious. It means propitious.

Things are not always automatic - as conditions may be involved.

In John 3:14-15, Jesus compares His propitiation with the raising of the snake in the Wilderness (Numbers 21:6-9). God's healing provision in Numbers 21:6-9 was not automatic, the people were required to look upon the lifted snake. So, too, with Calvary, no one is saved by the atonement itself. People must look to Jesus in faith, or else the atonement will not be applied to them.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.​

 

[Bobber]

I can't seem to find all in any of these passages.

Why should you think that you need to. For the reason that few people will be saved, relative to the complete human population one can most certainly say many will be recipient's of salvation. Doesn't mean at all it wasn't made available to all.

Then you have the scriptures' which say God is not willing that ANY should perish and that God so loved the world. But then Calvinists twist the meaning of those words. So you do have words exactly similar but Calvinists sadly won't accept them.

 

[Hammster]

Does whole world mean every man, woman, boy and girl? Do you believe Christ's propitiation was for everyone in the world?

Things are not always automatic - as conditions may be involved.

In John 3:14-15, Jesus compares His propitiation with the raising of the snake in the Wilderness (Numbers 21:6-9). God's healing provision in Numbers 21:6-9 was not automatic, the people were required to look upon the lifted snake. So, too, with Calvary, no one is saved by the atonement itself. People must look to Jesus in faith, or else the atonement will not be applied to them.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.​

So it’s a conditional propitiation, even though John doesn’t say it is. Is this also conditional?

even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
— John 10:15

 

[John Mullally]

So it’s a conditional propitiation, even though John doesn’t say it is. Is this also conditional?

even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
— John 10:15

In John 3:14-15, Jesus says that His atonement is only effective for those who believe in Him.

No one is born Jesus's Sheep: When Jesus says, “I know My own and My own know Me,” He is referring to a mutual and intimate, interpersonal relationship. “The Lord knows who are His,” (2 Timothy 2:19) and “if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.” (1 Corinthians 8:3). Either this is something that we are born with, or it is something that we grow into. Since no one is born as a believer, it would stand to reason that being one of Christ’s sheep (or follower) is something that results from conversion rather than birth.

Later in that chapter, Jesus encouraged unbelievers to consider the evidencce of the miracles so that they would know the truth. (John 10:37-38) So, just because they are presently not His sheep, does not mean that they cannot become His followers.

You cannot take John 10:15 in isolation. Just because Jesus died for His Sheep, does not mean He did not die for others. If you take Galatians 2:20 in isolation, you can argue that Jesus died only for Paul

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.​

​

Jesus died for the entire world: 1 John 2:2 amd 1 Timothy 2:6 say that Jesus died for all men. But again just because Jesus died for all men, does not mean it is effective for all men.

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.​

​

1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.​

​

If Jesus did not die for all people, why does Paul say that Jesus is the Savior of all people?

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

 

[Hammster]

No one is born Jesus's Sheep: When Jesus says, “I know My own and My own know Me,” He is referring to a mutual and intimate, interpersonal relationship.

I don’t want to jump the gun here. If they aren’t His sheep, whose sheep are they?

 

[bbbbbbb]

In John 3:14-15, Jesus says that His atonement is only effective for those who believe in Him.

No one is born Jesus's Sheep: When Jesus says, “I know My own and My own know Me,” He is referring to a mutual and intimate, interpersonal relationship. “The Lord knows who are His,” (2 Timothy 2:19) and “if anyone loves God, he is known by Him.” (1 Corinthians 8:3). Either this is something that we are born with, or it is something that we grow into. Since no one is born as a believer, it would stand to reason that being one of Christ’s sheep (or follower) is something that results from conversion rather than birth.

Later in that chapter, Jesus encouraged unbelievers to consider the evidencce of the miracles so that they would know the truth. (John 10:37-38) So, just because they are presently not His sheep, does not mean that they cannot become His followers.

You cannot take John 10:15 in isolation. Just because Jesus died for His Sheep, does not mean He did not die for others. If you take Galatians 2:20 in isolation, you can argue that Jesus died only for Paul

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.​

​

Jesus died for the entire world: 1 John 2:2 amd 1 Timothy 2:6 say that Jesus died for all men. But again just because Jesus died for all men, does not mean it is effective for all men.

1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.​

​

1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.​

​

If Jesus did not die for all people, why does Paul say that Jesus is the Savior of all people?

1 Timothy 4:10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

Did Jesus die for the goats?

Matthew 25:31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

 

[John Mullally]

I don’t want to jump the gun here. If they aren’t His sheep, whose sheep are they?

I was talking about Jesus's sheep.

And before you respond saying your question is not answered as you frequently do. I will remind you that here again you ask a question with an assumption "if they are not His sheep" that you know is not shared, nor did I state. That is a dishonest "Gotcha" question. God sees all.

Did Jesus die for the goats?

Again 1 Timothy 2:6 and 1 John 2:2 indicate that Christ died for all men. And somehow Paul says that Jesus is the Savior of all men in 1 Timothy 4:10 - how does that work under Calvinist theology?

 

[Hammster]

I was talking about Jesus's sheep.

That’s why I didn’t want to jump the gun.

You said

Since no one is born as a believer, it would stand to reason that being one of Christ’s sheep (or follower) is something that results from conversion rather than birth.

Taking this at face value, this means that someone doesn’t become a sheep until conversion, correct?

 

[John Mullally]

That’s why I didn’t want to jump the gun.

You said

Taking this at face value, this means that someone doesn’t become a sheep until conversion, correct?

Someone becomes Jesus's sheep when they qualify by following Jesus - which is conversion.

I was wondering when do you see someone becoming "In Him" which is the phrase used in the Epistles? Is at conversion, birth, or from the foundation of the world?

 

[Hammster]

Someone becomes Jesus's sheep when they qualify by following Jesus - which is conversion.

Are they just regular sheep prior to that?

I was wondering when do you see someone becoming "In Him" which is the phrase used in the Epistles? Is at conversion, birth, or from the foundation of the world?

Probably all three. We were chosen in Him before the foundation of world. And obviously we had to be born. There’s also a change at conversion.